antifreeze... long and short

[rancherman]

I've seen  HOAT  antifreeze   explained   2 different ways

Hybrid Organic Acid  Technology

Hybrid  Organic  Antifreeze  Technology.      

I got   what I needed in  'searching'...  CONFUSED!  

Edit:   after reviewing my OP,   the  underscored   HOAT   says  it's  Hybrid  Organic  Additive  Technology!!!!

 

My jeep  (as well as   pretty much all  Mopars since  ~early 2000's )    need this.     This antifreeze is NOT to be mixed with   the older  stuff,   it'll turn to glop. 

One is  ethylene, the other propylene  glycol...   not sure which is which!

 

My  vm diesel is an iron block, aluminum head,  and  has  the famous   Chrysler  electrical system   hanging upon it.      Am  I doomed to  ONLY using HOAT  ... even if  I totally flush it out  and   start over  new?

 

I like  to keep my inventory  in the  supply shed  as  simple as possible!

Edited October 10, 2014 by rancherman

[mopartechnician]

You need hoat. Dont use anything else or you will have problems

[diesel4life]

http://images.peakauto.com/250x410_Global_5050-3%20(1).png

This stuff is a good alternative to the traditional ethylene glycol systems and is widely used as a replacement for the expensive and hard to get Asian spec'd coolant. It is an OAT, but has the requirements of HOAT as well And meets ASTM D-3306 and ASTM D- 4340 and Chrysler MS7170 and MS9769 spec (G05). Non 2EH formula which makes it compatable for all types of rubber seals and gaskets, silicate free and phosphate free. I am slowly switching over all my coolants to this. Thorough flush with distilled water and fill with the full strength.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.astm.org%2FStandards%2FD4340.htm&rct=j&q=astm%20d4340&ei=U8s3VKP5BIf2yQTRoYGoDg&usg=AFQjCNHx-WSmGmmwDtT8D41MH3b6k5n1ww&sig2=mBiySqaYTrKCsgCFuzh7pA&bvm=bv.77161500,d.aWw

Edited October 10, 2014 by diesel4life

[Mopar1973Man]

I typically stay away from HOAT (Orange coolant). I tend to gravitate to the Yellow Universal or Green that was original to the truck. 

 

Yellow will mix with both and very very common out here locally. Green is a bit less common and can only be mixed with yellow.  Orange (HOAT) is very rare and expensive also can be mixed with yellow but prefer to keep the coolant changed so the pH level stay closer to 7.

[rancherman]

I'll  agree with   the  not mixing  the  hoat,  non hoat  stuff..   I've read  where you can  get away with  'topping off'  certain  products.     But  I   was  wondering  about  a total  system  flush,  ( I mean  totally  scrubbed )     and   putting in     'normal' type  antifreeze.     I  buy the  pre diluted  stuff these  days,  my  tap water is  so full of  nitrates  and  minerals.     keeping distilled water 'on hand'  is  just another jug  to keep on the shelf.

 

Geez,   I've  owned many  iron block  engines  with aluminum heads,  (oldsmobile, Pontiac  2.8's  quad 4's )    running     jive ol'    green    Sure,  every dang one  needed  a head gasket  @   150-200 k,   but  that  was   considered   'normal'  for   the  aluminum head  to move  'faster' than the iron block,  and it chewed up  the  HG...    The   replacement  HG's  I put on them  were  fel pro  'problem solvers'   which had  a   Teflon  type  coating.

 

In a nutshell,   these  HOAT  (mopar,  some fords)  and  OAT   (GM)    is  the  ADDITIVE  they are putting in  the  coolant..   which is  basically a   recipe   for longer life?? 

[mopartechnician]

Its all about the metals being used. Use the wrong coolant and you are asking for problems with cavitation and such

[diesel4life]

Everybody is moving away from the HOAT including Chrysler and Ford and going to OAT. They are getting away from the silicate formula the previous blends uses because the silicate is susceptable to fallout if not changed on a regular schedule, and that schedule is much shorter than it really needs to be. Personally I see a huge advantage in switching to the universal OAT long life, Peak claims "lifetime" with a flush but I'm not sure I would be comfortable with that claim. Even if you doubled your service intervals which is being VERY conservative with an OAT, the savings will be multiplied for each vehicle converted. I can buy the full concentrate Peak Global for about 2 bucks more than the traditional glycol coolant.

One thing to consider regardless of what you buy, you will never get the proper concentration with the 50/50 blend if you flush with water without wasting a couple of gallons of coolant to bring the coolant percentage up. Also if you are flushing with tap water you will still have a large percentage of that water in the block. I go buy enough distilled water to perform 2-3 flushes, then pour full strength coolant in until the proper mix is achieved, then top off with 50/50.

[diesel4life]

^^^^Non 2 EH formula is very important^^^^

[rancherman]

Its all about the metals being used. Use the wrong coolant and you are asking for problems with cavitation and such

I have seen   pictures of   water pump impellors   ate away... nothing but a nub.

[rancherman]

Are   the  jugs of  antifreeze  plainly labeled   HOAT,  OAT..    or  do I need to  research this   beforehand?     

 

The  silicate fallout...  you mentioned,     I read a post  where  a  guy    found  the bottoms  of his    radiator, and   recovery bottle   with    white  sandy type  material..   would this be the silicate?

[Mopar1973Man]

I have seen   pictures of   water pump impellors   ate away... nothing but a nub.

 

This isn't caused from the coolant but the lack of changing the coolant. Over time the coolant becomes corrosive and starts eating metals in the cooling system. All the coolant does is prevent boiling and freezing. As for pH level that can only be resolved will system flushing. The coolant becomes corrosive from every time you crank the start your passing a high current through the block and charging the cooling which like a battery more the charge the more acidic and more dead the battery the more like distilled water.

[rancherman]

we've discussed in here using  Cascade  detergent to clean the inside of our  systems..   mainly  the  oil  from a  bad  cooler.

 

It's been  accepted  that  since  cascade is  more on the base  side of  Ph,    It's  kind of a   'neutralizer'  for   the cooling system too.

 

Anyone see any problem of me   cleaning up  my   jeep?...  and going with a   more common  type   antifreeze?         I'd  flush with  clear water  for  about  4  times.    

I'll have to  crawl under it to see if  VM  used  draincocks  on the block, or at least  a  screw in plug.   

[diesel4life]

What do you consider more common? G05 has been around since 2000 or longer so it should be readily available most anywhere. I'm not sure why you would want to go backwards in coolant technology? I can't answer to the compatibility for sure but the best case scenario is you will be significantly increasing service intervals. Your Jeep was designed for a long life coolant and I would take advantage of it either with the Peak Global or a specific G05 coolant. The traditional ethylene glycol is old technology which uses corrosion inhibiters with a short life cycle, and one of the reasons all manufacturers moved away from it years ago.

[Mopar1973Man]

Like here is what I would pickup right now since its a fair price. It's universal coolant so it can go either way.

http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx/Antifreeze-Extended-Life-Universal-Gallon-Full-Strength/_/R-NAF1EXT_0417578537

 

A matter of fact we use the same stuff down at the shop.

[rancherman]

lol,  shows  how  'in the dark'  I'm  at  with   antifreeze!       This jeep is  the  newest  machine  I  own,  a  2005,  hell,  it's  the only one  built in this  century!   (ya,  my  2000  ram  was actually made   in Dec, 1999! )

 

G05  is   the way then???          What color is  THAT  stuff??

 

Peak Global,   is that a wally world find?    Thanks man!

[angus]

Everybody is moving away from the HOAT including Chrysler and Ford and going to OAT. They are getting away from the silicate formula the previous blends uses because the silicate is susceptable to fallout if not changed on a regular schedule, and that schedule is much shorter than it really needs to be. Personally I see a huge advantage in switching to the universal OAT long life, Peak claims "lifetime" with a flush but I'm not sure I would be comfortable with that claim. Even if you doubled your service intervals which is being VERY conservative with an OAT, the savings will be multiplied for each vehicle converted. I can buy the full concentrate Peak Global for about 2 bucks more than the traditional glycol coolant.

One thing to consider regardless of what you buy, you will never get the proper concentration with the 50/50 blend if you flush with water without wasting a couple of gallons of coolant to bring the coolant percentage up. Also if you are flushing with tap water you will still have a large percentage of that water in the block. I go buy enough distilled water to perform 2-3 flushes, then pour full strength coolant in until the proper mix is achieved, then top off with 50/50.

Not trying to dispute your claim,. but I`m also a member on the ToyotaNation forum where there is alot of negative feedback on OAT, or  DEXCOOL by name. They say flush it at 75K . or your likely to have problems.

 

I can personally vouch for the HOAT. I flushed the original (Red) Mopar coolant @ 150K and it still tested to -30 and the inside of the cylinder head under the thermostat literally looks like a new head.. I mean absolutely no corrosion whatsoever.

 

So yeah I had to special order it from Oreilly and paid $20 bucks a gallon for it, but from what I have seen so far it is well worth the investment.

[angus]

http://www.frsport.com/G-05-Antifreeze-Coolant-1-Gallon-_p_32825.html?gclid=CNiH0qvCycECFYU7Mgod4HgAJg

 

G05 is Hybrid organic acid technology . Alot of parts store guys will look at you kinda funny when you ask for it, but there should be someone around that knows what it is.

[diesel4life]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=8&ved=0CDYQFjAH&url=http%3A%2F%2Farticles.sae.org%2F11284%2F&rct=j&q=05%20dodge%20ram%20cummins%20coolant%20service%20interval&ei=XIBMVMu-CsOg8QHyq4GYCg&usg=AFQjCNGdPRs2FwLm3lNIbbpVo036fcQCAQ&sig2=fXhSebY_N5784lEaph0TNQ&bvm=bv.77880786,d.b2U

There are many different types of OAT. The Peak Global is a silicate free, non 2eha formula, and to the best of my knowledge Dexcool is both of those. The 2 EHA formulas are used for the low cost ability to maintain long term corrosion protection but have also been known to eat different silicone and plastic type seals. The silicates is one of the main driving factors in determining service intervals and one reason why all manufacturers have gone away from a HOAT, which is limited to 5 yrs/100k miles on the factory fill. The new Chrysler formula OAT is rated for 10 yrs/ 150k miles.

I was not knocking HOAT in my post you quoted me In. Rancher man's original post asked if there was any harm in switching his HOAT spec'd Jeep back to a traditional ethylene glycol coolant, and I simply offered what I consider to be a better alternative with the Peak Global (compared to regular antifreeze).

[angus]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=8&ved=0CDYQFjAH&url=http%3A%2F%2Farticles.sae.org%2F11284%2F&rct=j&q=05%20dodge%20ram%20cummins%20coolant%20service%20interval&ei=XIBMVMu-CsOg8QHyq4GYCg&usg=AFQjCNGdPRs2FwLm3lNIbbpVo036fcQCAQ&sig2=fXhSebY_N5784lEaph0TNQ&bvm=bv.77880786,d.b2U

There are many different types of OAT. The Peak Global is a silicate free, non 2eha formula, and to the best of my knowledge Dexcool is both of those. The 2 EHA formulas are used for the low cost ability to maintain long term corrosion protection but have also been known to eat different silicone and plastic type seals. The silicates is one of the main driving factors in determining service intervals and one reason why all manufacturers have gone away from a HOAT, which is limited to 5 yrs/100k miles on the factory fill. The new Chrysler formula OAT is rated for 10 yrs/ 150k miles.

I was not knocking HOAT in my post you quoted me In. Rancher man's original post asked if there was any harm in switching his HOAT spec'd Jeep back to a traditional ethylene glycol coolant, and I simply offered what I consider to be a better alternative with the Peak Global (compared to regular antifreeze).

Understood, and you have obviously done more research than I have. I think antifreeze formulas have advanced to the point where people should consider flushing the old ethylene glycol even in older vehicles.

 

I have an old GMC truck and a couple of tractors I need to research and see what is a compatible upgrade.

 

I also learned about using distilled water from this forum, and had never considered the crap that is in ordinary tap water.  

 

I`m curious if anyone has ever tried using something like CLR when they flush an old system? I have a hunch it might cause alot of existing crap

 to break loose which might be a good thing, or might be a bad thing?

[Mopar1973Man]

Remember if you use any flush chemical do leave them in too long because most are a acid nature to help break loose all the junk. Then make sure to rinse the entire system out really good a few times. In other words fill, drive, and dump a few times to makes sure you get it all rinse out. It really sucks when you don't and the CLR or block flush now eats your head gasket or heater core.