So I got my first fuel fill of the Alaska winter fuel blend last week and immediately the stalling when put in drive is back just like my thread of last spring on this problem. http://forum.mopar1973man.com/showthread.php/1584-Problems-Stalling-when-shifting-to-drive-and-hard-starting-when-hot.-Ideas?highlight= I got to thinking after I read JohnFak's thread on the same issue with his truck where new batteries fixed it. http://forum.mopar1973man.com/showthread.php/2401-New-One-truck-stalls-when-moving-into-gear?highlight= Entry #20 I checked my batteries and found they were 5 years old. Well, they are Costco's kirkland brand with a 100 month warranty. I looked at the chart of refund on the batteries and found I was at the 30% refund point. I pulled the batteries and took them to Costco and indeed, they did refund 30% of the purchase price after looking up my sales receipt in their computer (I had misplaced mine :-) ). Then I went and got 2 new batteries (again Kirkland with 100 mo warrenty), and installed and trickle charged them overnight. Didn't fix the stalling. When it was stalling last spring I had edge +80 injectors. I have since replaced them with RV275 injectors (new), so I'm sure that it isn't the injectors as the stalling happens with both sets of injectors. Last spring I found that adding injector cleaner ended the stalling until I added fuel once again. I've been getting my fuel at the Fred Meyers stores. I think I'm going to try another fuel source and see if that helps. I hate to use additives other than 2cycle oil. Any other Ideas? Jim

100% load would be as much fuel as the injector can spray. you have to remember that load % is a obd2 pid designed for gassers. even at idle gassers will report 20-30% load because they have to match air to fuel ratios. diesel are not as strict and can run really lean. hence the really low %s. i typically only see 1%-2% load at idle unless the grid heaters are kicking on

Ok I understand what you are saying. The wife and I went out to dinner tonight. When we got back home while letting the EGTs drop below 360, I looked at the LOD reading on the SGII which was at 12. With the truck in park I started advancing the throttle, when the rpm increased the LOD reading decreased. At 1850 rpm the LOD registered 0. this indicates to me that LOD on the 2nd gen 5.9 24 valve Cummins is the percentage of Engine Load relative to the possible amount of throttle (injector spray capacity) remaining to maintain the present rpm under an increasing engine load. So at 748 rpm and 12% LOD I had 88% more power that could be applied for work at that RPM. The difference between the LOD we see in our trucks is I am turning an automatic transmission and you are turning a five speed manual. You see much less drag at idle than I do with the low stall triple disk converter. Make sense to you ? Jim Jim

i agree with you about the torque converter creating more of a load than my stick. when i first started playing obd2 everyone told me "that diesels don't report load% correctly". i don't know how true that is, but their arguments were about air/fuel ratios and how long the injector stays open(duty cycle). also on my cars(manual trans) at idle, load % sits at 20-30%. the same with my wifes auto. i my ram, i can actually get 0%(you and i know those injectors are opening) and even numbers like 3.13%. live data here at idle on my cars, not moving just giving gas, i can get load in to the high 90%, but with the ram i might get 5%(and thats a BIG might)

I still say its going to be a trans thing plus your idle RPM's. Like my truck with a manual shows 0 LOD all the time in neutral the only time I see it rise is with a exhaust and/or high idle. But my normal idle is much higher they you SASQCH... My normal idle is 840-860 RPM's. So my thought is the TQ Conv is drawing down that 100 RPM creating the LOD change...

I still say its going to be a trans thing plus your idle RPM's.

Like my truck with a manual shows 0 LOD all the time in neutral the only time I see it rise is with a exhaust and/or high idle. But my normal idle is much higher they you SASQCH... My normal idle is 840-860 RPM's.

So my thought is the TQ Conv is drawing down that 100 RPM creating the LOD change...

Hmm.. If that were the case why does the rpm stabilize at 748 whether the truck is in park/neutral or on drive?

In park or neutral, there should not be a lot of internal drag in the TC because the transmission clutches and bands are released.

It should be nearly as free turning as a standard trans out of gear with the clutch let out I would think. However when the trans is pulled into drive there is a much greater demand for power to overcome the internal converter drag.

When the truck is in drive (and didn't stall) while holding the brake, I hear the engine make more noise from working the torque converter fluid.

That's an audible indicator of the increased engine load (LOD).

I suspect the RPM is exactly where the ECM is programmed for it to be.

When the truck is put in drive the ECM asks for more fuel to compensate for the increased LOD.

I think it just isn't responding quick enough or with not enough fuel to keep it from stalling.

I think it's programming fuel map is calculated for a stock converter and stock injectors.

When a stronger converter and larger injectors are put in, then throw in winter grade fuel (and it being ULSD at that) it puts the required amount of fuel needed outside the programmed fueling map.

This is just my deduction of the factors that seem to be contributing to the problem.

We have to understand the problem thoroughly before we can solve it.

Another thought just crossed my mind, there is a setting on my smarty to compensate for larger injectors. I tried it once, but never when I was having stalling issues. I think I'll play with that and/or call MADS to discuss it. If I call them I will bring up the stalling issue and what I think the contributing factors are and see if they think they can create a map variation for a low stall converter.

Jim

Exactly, you can't tell me the engine just magically was lugged down to be at exactly 750RPM. It does not have a set throttle position, it will give it enough to hold at that exact RPM. When Johns truck was completely warmed up it was at 750 in D when it was 45F and you finally got it to go in without stalling it was at 750. The ECM compensates and does its thing. Manuals must be set at 850, I have no idea why you would ever want it that high. The trans is tight, by the time all the ECM/VP44/etc. gets a chance to give it more fuel, it has already stalled. I still don't understand how the summer/injector cleaner fuel gives it enough of an edge not to stall. You said 2 stroke doesn't fix it so lubricity isn't the issue. Only thing is, John has summer fuel in his and once it got cold out (under 60F maybe) it would stall. We put the other injectors in it and I think he has gone down to 55F without it stalling again. I am interested to see what it does when it gets to 45F, because it would stall instantly.

Only thing is, John has summer fuel in his and once it got cold out (under 60F maybe) it would stall. We put the other injectors in it and I think he has gone down to 55F without it stalling again. I am interested to see what it does when it gets to 45F, because it would stall instantly.

yeah sucks being in AZ - 61 this morning - started at 790rpm and dropped to 620 via edge. Might have to drive up to the mountains and see if I can get it cold enough - else wait till end of NOV etc. Spoke with revmax - frank - he says he never heard of stalling issue with any trucks and they sell a lot of units in cold climates - I trust him - so not sure now about TC specifically putting any "additional" load above design - just going with the numbers of how many units they must sell. jim - what happens if you disengage your grid heaters ............ just curious

yeah sucks being in AZ - 61 this morning - started at 790rpm and dropped to 620 via edge.

Might have to drive up to the mountains and see if I can get it cold enough - else wait till end of NOV etc.

Spoke with revmax - frank - he says he never heard of stalling issue with any trucks and they sell a lot of units in cold climates - I trust him - so not sure now about TC specifically putting any "additional" load above design - just going with the numbers of how many units they must sell.

jim - what happens if you disengage your grid heaters ............ just curious

I have never disengaged the heaters so I can't answer that question, and it will be about 2 weeks before I use the fuel in the tank with the injector cleaner in it.

ISX, I suspect that the injector cleaner changes the volatility of the fuel enough that it ignites fast enough that the engine don't stall out. It does have a quite noticeable hesitation before getting more fuel from the ECM/IP and keeping on running.

Jim

--- Update to the previous post...

Exactly, you can't tell me the engine just magically was lugged down to be at exactly 750RPM. It does not have a set throttle position, it will give it enough to hold at that exact RPM. When Johns truck was completely warmed up it was at 750 in D when it was 45F and you finally got it to go in without stalling it was at 750. The ECM compensates and does its thing. Manuals must be set at 850, I have no idea why you would ever want it that high.

The trans is tight, by the time all the ECM/VP44/etc. gets a chance to give it more fuel, it has already stalled. I still don't understand how the summer/injector cleaner fuel gives it enough of an edge not to stall. You said 2 stroke doesn't fix it so lubricity isn't the issue. Only thing is, John has summer fuel in his and once it got cold out (under 60F maybe) it would stall. We put the other injectors in it and I think he has gone down to 55F without it stalling again. I am interested to see what it does when it gets to 45F, because it would stall instantly.

I suspect that the manuals are set that high to compensate for inexperienced manual drivers letting out the clutch quickly. A stock TC is designed to apply the load to the engine more gradually than a manual clutch. At idle a manual TC will slip enough that the truck just sits there. A low stall TC won't do that it will pull the truck even on a upward grade. Mine will accelerate the empty truck on level ground enough to cause two transmission shifts so I'm in third gear.

I'm wondering if the ECM idle were set to 850 like the manual trans trucks, would it continue to stall when pulled into drive?

Then would mine at idle rolling shift into OD?

When it was 45F I revved it up and put it in gear and it had to be at 1300 at the minimum, 1200 still stalled like it was at 800. It actually still stalled either way, I had to rev it up, put it in drive while giving it even more throttle to get it to not stall. Once it ran for 1 second, you could let off and it was fine. That was the only way to get it to not stall when it was that cold. I don't know what it would be like at 0-20F.

I still keep thinking its something to do with the trans/TQ conv. Because like you said ISX if you got it pass the stall point and ran for few second problem is gone. So I'm going to assume the trans fluid / TQ Conv is lugging down the truck.

I still keep thinking its something to do with the trans/TQ conv. Because like you said ISX if you got it pass the stall point and ran for few second problem is gone. So I'm going to assume the trans fluid / TQ Conv is lugging down the truck.

I think that point has been established.. Nothing we can do about it but make the truck roll with it by responding faster or fueling better or something, but how...

I still keep thinking its something to do with the trans/TQ conv. Because like you said ISX if you got it pass the stall point and ran for few second problem is gone. So I'm going to assume the trans fluid / TQ Conv is lugging down the truck.

This makes most sense to me ...... but here's a few questions 1) Frank at Revmax says never heard of that as an issue. Now I know doesn't mean it hasn't happened but its not like these guys sell 1 or 2 converters a month. Like he said many many customers in very cold conditions. 2) Why when you put it into 'D' or 'R' just for a few seconds - and then back it no longer stalls - I mean its not like the ATF has had a chance to warm up - so is it a drainage/fluid level issue ? Don't see how the viscoscity changed that quickly. 3) If we are thinking viscocity of fluid again (cold and heavy TC) ......... why does it happen at those high RPM's ........ ISX and jim both noticed it still stalls at 750+RPM - that doesn't seem to be dragging the engine down in that case -> it looks more like something killed the engine dunno - just some q's/thoughts:shrug:

OKAY, let's throw this into the mix of variables. Today in Anchorage it is about 40F and light rain with high humidity. Yesterday the truck didn't stall with the injector cleaner in the fuel. Today it stalls about 50% of the time I put it into drive or reverse after I start it warm or cold. After one or two times stalling, it no longer stalls until I shut it off for 10 or 15 minutes, then it will stall once or twice before going into gear without stalling. So what is it about high humidity and cool air that causes this change in behavior? Air density? what?

Jim

--- Update to the previous post...

This makes most sense to me ...... but here's a few questions

1) Frank at Revmax says never heard of that as an issue. Now I know doesn't mean it hasn't happened but its not like these guys sell 1 or 2 converters a month. Like he said many many customers in very cold conditions.

How many of those customers have non standard injectors/ Is Frank going to own up when he may have a issue he might have to deal with that could cost him time money to figure out, where is his return on acknowledging the issue?

2) Why when you put it into 'D' or 'R' just for a few seconds - and then back it no longer stalls - I mean its not like the ATF has had a chance to warm up - so is it a drainage/fluid level issue ? Don't see how the viscoscity changed that quickly.

Whoa, explain this phenomenon, I'm not sure I understand what you are talking about here.

3) If we are thinking viscocity of fluid again (cold and heavy TC) ......... why does it happen at those high RPM's ........ ISX and jim both noticed it still stalls at 750+RPM - that doesn't seem to be dragging the engine down in that case -> it looks more like something killed the engine

I think the electronics are not responding quick enough to the additional drag of the low stall converter and thick transmission fluid and the engine just dies.

dunno - just some q's/thoughts:shrug:

Responses in red above.

How many of those customers have non standard injectors/ Is Frank going to own up when he may have a issue he might have to deal with that could cost him time money to figure out, where is his return on acknowledging the issue?

Would think quite a few - just like us Never got that feeling from him. Not saying guys don't do that - my impression is if he knew of something he would discuss it. Also - lots of guys running 3x disks on CF and not much/any talk of stalling like ours I could find.

Whoa, explain this phenomenon, I'm not sure I understand what you are talking about here.

What I mean is - if you can keep it from stalling (increase throttle) and engaged 'D' ... and move the truck a little - it doesn;t seem long before the stall is gone. eg move back into 'P' then 'D' again - has the viscocity/temp of the fluid increased that much by then ??

I think the electronics are not responding quick enough to the additional drag of the low stall converter and thick transmission fluid and the engine just dies.

But you both said it dies even at 750 rpm right ? So its being shutoff (fuel/power ?) just PRIOR to the engine being dragged down sometimes right ?? Else it would still hit ~450-500 and THEN die.

Would think quite a few - just like us Never got that feeling from him. Not saying guys don't do that - my impression is if he knew of something he would discuss it. Also - lots of guys running 3x disks on CF and not much/any talk of stalling like ours I could find.

I've searched around and found countless guys with this issue, it is hit and miss but there are plenty of people with the problem. Not everyone gets on the internet and talks about it either.

What I mean is - if you can keep it from stalling (increase throttle) and engaged 'D' ... and move the truck a little - it doesn;t seem long before the stall is gone. eg move back into 'P' then 'D' again - has the viscocity/temp of the fluid increased that much by then ??

Not sure where you got that, that thing died countlessly when it was 45F. Maybe when it was warmer it was right on the edge of stalling so the couple seconds in D was enough.

But you both said it dies even at 750 rpm right ? So its being shutoff (fuel/power ?) just PRIOR to the engine being dragged down sometimes right ?? Else it would still hit ~450-500 and THEN die.

I think 450-500 is just the last RPM it shows before dieing but doesn't mean it tried to stay running, it just registered that speed as the cam sensor magnet thing went around one last time. I never saw it drop, wait, then die, it always died instantly or dropped to 500 and caught itself and was fine. Seems to me like 2 cam sensors 180* apart would speed up the response time since it has to go around 360 just to get a reading, and if it is the cam sensor then the engine has to go around twice for the cam sensor to go around once, which would obviously have a ton of free time. I wonder if the guys with crank sensors have this problem.

Alright I see Sasqch has crack sensor lol. I think they just need more notches in the damper and more things in the cam for a faster RPM response reading.

k :P

Exactly, you can't tell me the engine just magically was lugged down to be at exactly 750RPM. It does not have a set throttle position, it will give it enough to hold at that exact RPM. When Johns truck was completely warmed up it was at 750 in D when it was 45F and you finally got it to go in without stalling it was at 750. The ECM compensates and does its thing. Manuals must be set at 850, I have no idea why you would ever want it that high.

are you saying that autos idle at 750 and sticks at 850? mine seems to like 808rpm with the grids off.

But you both said it dies even at 750 rpm right ? So its being shutoff (fuel/power ?) just PRIOR to the engine being dragged down sometimes right ?? Else it would still hit ~450-500 and THEN die.

funny. the anti-stall on the sticks doesn't let the rpms get lower than 600-700. it fuels enough to get ~800. i accidentally took off in 3rd once. didn't stall it and i don't give it throttle when i think its in 1st . just accelerated quickly to 800 and coasted. i didn't have my data tool hooked up, but i'm sure that would have been ~40% LOD. is it possible you have air getting in to the lines. a slight leak left me with funny idling for a while.

Another way of loooking at it...

During my firefighter days I seen a lot of fire truck being pump tested. The last test rig was really cool. He had a trailer with a 2,000 gallon tank and a few bits of plumbing and baffles. Well getting to the point is during a single pump testof 15 minutes we would have to dump that 2,000 gallons and reload the tank why because the pump in 15 minute would raise the water temp from 35-40*F to over 130*F making it unusable for the next test.

Ok what this got to do with anything. Well when you look inside a TQ Convertor any of them you got what is like a pump in theory. But the walls of the pump are lined with pockets...

So during you stall moment you raising the RPM's great as ISX points out and then drops into gear adding more throtle to keep it going during this time the engine half of the TQ convertor is turn against the Trans part of the TQ converter which is NOT turnning at all! So during this time that you easing out of the throttle the trans fluid in the torque convertor is rises very rapidily causing the fluid to thin out. Now of course this is not heating all the fluid just the TQ Conv.

Now like SASQCH points out that once it does idle the LOD number is up to like 20%. So this is showing the fluid drag in the TQ Conv and the fluid is still thick. Now as his trans warm up the LOD drops to 10% or so.

Thinking out loud again...

--- Update to the previous post...

Here is a killer PDF about the toyota TQ Conv but explains the operation really good...

http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/AT02.pdf

Forgot I made this video, I was testing out whether the cold engine protection had any effect. Anyways I put it in reverse without touching the throttle and it died. So then I tried with just holding it at 1200, died. Then tried holding it at 1200 and stepping on it as I put it in D, it ran but once I saw it running I let off and it died. Then tried 1200 and stepped on it and held it and let off slowly, you can see even after a few seconds I let off and it dropped so I had to step on it again and let off real slow and then it held at the usual 750.

ISX, When my truck stalls it don't seem to act quite like yours does.

How does it act if you don't hold the brake when you pull it into gear?

Mine don't seem to stall as often if it can start moving when it is pulled into Drive.

That again seems to point to engine load.

What happens on a standard if at idle you pop the clutch into engagement (not holding the brake)?

Will it die or start moving and try to recover rpms?

Ya, I know if you are holding the brake like you do on an automatic when pulling it into gear it will die.:banghead:

On the auto we have more moving parts and internal friction than a standard trans, and I'm thinking the low stall multi disk converters put a load on the engine like a std when the clutch is suddenly engaged in second or third gear.

Here is the video I posted last May on my stalling issue.

Notice it don't stall when going into Reverse, however it does stall going into Drive.

Also notice that if I start it in Neutral and immediately pull it into Drive it don't stall.

http://s1015.photobucket.com/albums/...ftedintodr.flv

Jim

So what is it that the engine does when starting and going to D instantly that keeps it from screwing up. Does yours fix itself when the transmission warms up? Johns worked fine once the trans was up to temp, it still dropped and everything but wouldn't get to that stalling point. Your does seem a little more responsive to the load. I don't know how the cam sensor is set up but if it is like I think it is and the engine has to move 2 revs for the cam magnet thing to move past the sensor once then I can see the cam sensor engines would be less responsive. Do your EGT's shoot way up when your in D like Johns does? You can see that thing was up at 440F.