I'd like to start a thread for the discussion of Motor Oil aka Engine Oil

any other threads on the subject could be added to this area , possibly with a addition on Oil filters . 

As a retired oil man I still have access to much information and still enjoy reading and discussing the subject with others.

 

Thoughts ? Comments ?

In all my years in the oil industry I saw many engines torn down , the owner blaming the brand of oil, most of which had a prior problem  or had a oil miss applied ,

Usually a oil that was on the shelf too long and was not of spec called for.

And ....... way too many times run without oil at all or for that matter filter changes.

 

 

Never seen a BRAND oil cause a engine loss.

Off spec yes.

Found a great old article to share.

 

 

Why You Should Sample and Test New Oil

•  

Loren Green, Noria Corporation  
Tags: lubricant sampling

Recently, I have visited several plants with oil analysis programs that have ranged from non-existent to fairly robust. The common problem in all of them was that there was no sampling or testing of new oil receipts. This is critical for several reasons, such as to ensure that the oil received is the oil ordered, to establish a baseline for subsequent testing and monitoring of the oil condition, and simply to verify lubricant cleanliness. It is essential to fully understand each of these important issues.

Ensuring the Lubricant Received is the Lubricant Ordered

This may involve a simple viscosity comparison or a complete elemental analysis to ensure that the additive package meets the application’s requirements. At the very minimum, a viscosity comparison should be performed.

In his “Should New Lubricant Deliveries be Tested?” article for Machinery Lubrication, Jim Fitch references an audit performed by the American Petroleum Institute (API) in which 562 motor oils were tested. The results were as follows:

• 4 percent of the motor oils were classified as having standard deviations (one out of every 25 oils tested). Many had the wrong concentration of additives, while others failed to meet low-temperature specifications.
• 16 percent were classified as having marginal deviations (one out of every six oils tested).

Assuredly, technology has advanced since this study in 2001, but as the article explains, “Lubricants are blended by humans. They are inspected by humans. They are transported and packaged by humans. They are labeled by humans. When it comes to humans, there is one inalterable constant - we make mistakes.”

5 Tips for Setting Target Cleanliness Levels

1. Set targets for all lubricating oils and hydraulic fluids.
2. Use vendor specifications as ceiling levels only.
3. Set life-extension (benefit-driven) targets.
4. Consider the machine design, application and operating influences.
5. Make it a personal decision because you as the machine owner are the one paying the cost of failure, not the machine supplier, oil supplier, filter supplier, bearing supplier or oil analysis lab.

It has been said that the industrial world rides on a lubricant film between 1 and 10 microns. This film thickness is determined by the speed of rotation, the load on the elements and the lubricant’s viscosity. Lubricants are purchased with a specific viscosity to maintain that lubricant film and eliminate boundary conditions or metal-on-metal contact for the particular application. While this applies for lubricants purchased in drums, buckets, bottles, etc., in the case of bulk deliveries, there is an additional consideration.

A delivery truck generally has tanks or containers of different sizes and is loaded based on the delivery schedule. For example, the truck may have four compartments: a 7,500-gallon compartment, a 5,000-gallon compartment and two 2,500-gallon compartments. The orders being delivered today may require 7,000 gallons of oil “A,” 4,000 gallons of oil “B,” 2,000 gallons of oil “C” and 1,500 gallons of oil “D.” Tomorrow’s deliveries may require 6,700 gallons of oil “D,” 4,000 gallons of oil “C,” 1,200 gallons of oil “A” and 1,000 gallons of oil “B”. With this type of delivery schedule, cross-contamination is going to occur. Therefore, you should ask your supplier if each truck is cleaned prior to loading for the next trip. Also, find out if the loading and unloading hoses are cleaned. Remember, it is much less expensive to sample and test oil than it is to repair a failure and suffer the costs of downtime associated with that failure.

61% of lubrication professionals do not sample or test new oil upon receipt, according to a recent survey at MachineryLubrication.com

If the potential exists for lubricants to be mislabeled or contaminated and you are not currently taking steps to prevent this unknown and untested lubricant from contaminating your lubricants, you are in effect playing Russian roulette with your machines. Even if you have been lucky so far, eventually you will find the chamber with the live round. New lubricants should be tested upon receipt and placed in quarantine until they are verified to be the correct lubricants. Once acceptable results come back from the lab, these lubricants should then be labeled as satisfactory and placed into storage.

Establishing a Baseline for Subsequent Testing and Monitoring

In order to conduct accurate lubricant condition monitoring, a baseline sample should be taken. This will allow subsequent tests to be compared to the baseline test when the lubricant was new. After all, if you have no idea where you started, how can you tell where you are going? Once this baseline sample has been obtained, it should be kept as a reference. You can then directly compare the lubricant’s color or smell to that of the baseline sample. This will provide an immediate indication if there is a problem with the lubricant in your machines.

Verifying Lubricant Cleanliness

Several studies indicate that the cost of excluding a gram of dirt is only about 10 percent of what it will cost once it gets into your lubricants. In some cases, when new oils from major manufacturers were tested, the ISO cleanliness codes have ranged from 14/11 (pretty good) to 23/20 (not good at all). The average of these samples was 19/16, and several were 20/18 or 21/18.

For those who may not understand ISO cleanliness codes, they refer to values on a Renard series table in conjunction with particle counts of a specific micron size. For instance, in a two-digit ISO cleanliness code, particles of 4 and 6 microns are counted. A corresponding value is then assigned based on the number of particles of a specified size and where they fall on the table.

As you can see from the illustration above, there is a significant difference in particle counts between a code of 14/11 and 23/20. Keep in mind that these numbers are for packaged lubricants. For bulk deliveries, the numbers are much worse, running from 20/17 to 28/21. To get a better understanding of what this means, consider that a 50-gallon-per-minute pump moving a lubricant with an ISO code of 21/18 will pump approximately 6,784 pounds of dirt in a year.

In addition, it has been estimated that one particle of dirt has the potential to generate six wear particles. Particles in the 4- and 6-micron range are most damaging to your equipment because they are the same size as your lubricant film.

Of course, someone has to pay to remove this dirt from the lubricants. You can do it, or you can work with your vendor and split the cost. You may even be able to get your supplier to deliver lubricants that meet your cleanliness targets. This is something you should take into account when your supplier contract comes up for rebidding.

If you are not presently tracking lubricant cleanliness, hopefully this will prompt you to start. If you are tracking cleanliness but are not sampling your oil upon receipt, you are spending good money to clean up someone else’s mess. Ideally, you can work with your lubricant supplier and come up with cleanliness targets that make sense.

.

Machinery Lubrication (10/2013)

About the Author

Loren Green

  Loren Green is a technical consultant with Noria Corporation, focusing on machinery lubrication and maintenance in support of Noria's Lubrication Program Development (LPD). He is a ... Read More

 

 

 

THE FIRST OF ITS KIND

Delo® 400 SD SAE 15W-30 is a new kind of motor oil. It is formulated with ISOSYN technology and specifically engineered to protect engines under the Severe Duty conditions faced by so many of today’s operators, on and off road.

HOW IT HELPS

Every day, you’re solving problems to keep your equipment performing and your customers happy. On today’s highways, stop and go driving, hot shut-downs and heavy loads expose your truck’s engine to Severe Duty. Off road, it's the everyday challenge of dirt and dust, cycling between fully loaded and no load applications, long hours and little idling.

Delo® 400 SD SAE 15W-30 is engineered for Severe Duty protection in on road and off road to provide these benefits:

• Exceptional oxidation and deposit control to minimize unplanned maintenance
• Improved fuel economy over SAE 15W-40 in Class 6 trucks in stop and go applications
• Wear protection for longer engine life.

 

 

 

So...... has anyone seen this on the shelf yet ??

I have not seen any HDEO 15w30 on the shelves here but to be honest I don't generally pay much attention to local stock because my stuff gets delivered to my door step. It will be interesting To see how many other companies start making a 15w30 and how soon it catches on.

THE FIRST OF ITS KIND

Delo® 400 SD SAE 15W-30 is a new kind of motor oil. It is formulated with ISOSYN technology and specifically engineered to protect engines under the Severe Duty conditions faced by so many of today’s operators, on and off road.

HOW IT HELPS

Every day, you’re solving problems to keep your equipment performing and your customers happy. On today’s highways, stop and go driving, hot shut-downs and heavy loads expose your truck’s engine to Severe Duty. Off road, it's the everyday challenge of dirt and dust, cycling between fully loaded and no load applications, long hours and little idling.

Delo® 400 SD SAE 15W-30 is engineered for Severe Duty protection in on road and off road to provide these benefits:

• Exceptional oxidation and deposit control to minimize unplanned maintenance
• Improved fuel economy over SAE 15W-40 in Class 6 trucks in stop and go applications
• Wear protection for longer engine life.

 

 

 

So...... has anyone seen this on the shelf yet ??

 

 

 

 

Cures fits, farts, warts, freckles, coughs, runny noses.....

Guaranteed not to rip, run or snag............

Makes conception a wonder...........

And childbirth a pleasure.........

 

Miss anything????

 

Always take with several grains of salt what gets said in these ads!!!

I can see this being SOP on new trucks as bearing tolerances get tighter in the quest for better fuel economy. What I would love to see is real world tests between 30w and 40w and I would also like to see oil analysis from a pre emission engine using 30w.

So... over the last few weeks I talked to some friends still active in the oil industry, their thinking the Diesel engine market will see oils lighter yet, driven by CAFE standards just like the car (gas engines) have seen the move to lighter oils.

With the coming PC 11 oils we will see 2 very different sets of oils , one class for older engines and the lighter oils for newer smog engine diesels trying to make specific mileage claims.

Just boggles my mind , I remember when multi-grade diesel oils first came on the market , we had a very hard time changing people over from SAE 20 , 30 , 40 and yes a few used 50 oils to the new 15W40 oils , so just how hard will it be to convert people from 15W40 to 10W30 , 15W30 or even 5W30 diesel oils ?

 

Comments ??

Edited October 3, 201410 yr by skellyman

Cures fits, farts, warts, freckles, coughs, runny noses.....

Guaranteed not to rip, run or snag............

Makes conception a wonder...........

And childbirth a pleasure.........

 

Miss anything????

 

Always take with several grains of salt what gets said in these ads!!!

Yep...........The name of the song those lyrics came from, "Copenhagen" by the late great Chris Ledoux RIP!!!!! It is a great "Love" song.

Last mining conference I attended a year ago oil reps talked about all the new oils coming down the pipe for the new emissions standards, not just fuel that needs to meet these standards just in case god forbid an engine actually burned an ounce of oil or something. They also talked a lot about your previous post about sampling new oils and fuels for contamination when it arrives on site and many large mine who do this find many differences in quality of oil and fuel directly from the same refiners and manufacturers within days of each other.

Cures fits, farts, warts, freckles, coughs, runny noses.....

Guaranteed not to rip, run or snag............

Makes conception a wonder...........

And childbirth a pleasure.........

 

Miss anything????

 

Always take with several grains of salt what gets said in these ads!!!

Sounds  like a  Chris Ledoux  fan here!    :        "Copenhagen"

My  vm diesel in the Jeep  is  in that   'class' of    new  diesel..   and     finding  oil  that  meets  it's requirements.    0w-30   and    5w-30   (or   5w-40)   isn't as easy as  trundling down to  wally world.

I did find   Shell Rotella  T6  5w-40  for  reasonable price  this week there.    it will be my winter oil.     I gotta admit,  it was  painful  to  see that oil  pour out the  jug so easily today...   more like  Mazola.

I'd hate to  see  how  thin 0w  oil is!  

This  jeep came from  south Texas,  and  had   oil change stickers on it  with  Rotella  15-40  as  the   oil  being   used.     I may  use it  next summer.   But  summer ONLY.

 

Ya'll know I've been running   EVERYTHING  I own  on   Conoco  fleet  15w-40..    cars, pickups,  trucks, tractors,  4 wheelers..     gas diesel  propane.     All from the  same  55 gallon   'jug'.     I haven't  walked down the  oil alleyway in Wally world in years..     I  thought I was  on another planet!      "blends,  full synthetics,  conventionals, "  turbo diesel,  gas.... then  multiply all those  with various  weights, brands..  good grief!    no wonder there is  2  rows devoted to  oil in  Wally land.,   

THE FIRST OF ITS KIND

Delo® 400 SD SAE 15W-30 is a new kind of motor oil. It is formulated with ISOSYN technology and specifically engineered to protect engines under the Severe Duty conditions faced by so many of today’s operators, on and off road.

HOW IT HELPS

Every day, you’re solving problems to keep your equipment performing and your customers happy. On today’s highways, stop and go driving, hot shut-downs and heavy loads expose your truck’s engine to Severe Duty. Off road, it's the everyday challenge of dirt and dust, cycling between fully loaded and no load applications, long hours and little idling.

Delo® 400 SD SAE 15W-30 is engineered for Severe Duty protection in on road and off road to provide these benefits:

• Exceptional oxidation and deposit control to minimize unplanned maintenance
• Improved fuel economy over SAE 15W-40 in Class 6 trucks in stop and go applications
• Wear protection for longer engine life.

 

 

 

So...... has anyone seen this on the shelf yet ??

 

only the  Delo  'LE'  version

First time I poured 0 weight into a chrysler crossfire, I about freaked out. Didnt realize oil could pour like water

First time I poured 0 weight into a chrysler crossfire, I about freaked out. Didnt realize oil could pour like water

 

My  daughter found out the hard way  ($$$$)   about using the  correct oil  in  her  Dodge Intrepid.    2.7   has   tiny oil galleries,   plus  a  pretty funky  timing chain/tensioner/guide  set up... 

 

I believe that engine is  a  0 or  5w  type engine..

Advancing Heavy Duty Engine Oil (HDEO) Technology

Over the past two decades, advancement in HDEO has been driven by the ever more stringent emission legislation.  Fuel economy was not given as high of a priority as reducing emissions, however, with an increase in fuel prices the equation has changed.  Fleet owners and operators have increasing demands, so it is clear that maintaining the status quo for heavy duty engine oils is not an option.  Future engine oils will need to address a broader spectrum of performance criteria.

Rather than simply enhancing CJ-4 technology for the new PC-11 products, Oronite has been applying our HDEO expertise towards a new approach.   Let’s take a look at two key opportunities that exist for PC-11 in North America:

• Lower Viscosity Grades

  Previously users were reluctant to move away from the tried and true API 15W-40 viscosity grade, but there is growing receptiveness to lower viscosity grades.   This includes grades that have been traditionally used in passenger car engines, such as 10W-30 and even 5W-30.

• Lower Phosphorus Levels

  To avoid misapplication of viscosity grades, API has decided that diesel engine oils, most of which are formulated close to the maximum 0.12% phosphorus limit in the API C specification, can no longer add the API S gasoline engine claim.

Gains in Fuel Economy Shouldn’t come at the Expense of Wear Protection

The market wants to move to lower viscosity grades and maintain all the capabilities that current diesel engine oils exhibit.  This includes wanting universal applicability in both diesel and gasoline engines and the robustness that is required for extended drain capability and engine durability.

To meet the challenging demands of tomorrow’s diesel engine oils, Oronite is taking a new approach.  We know that fuel economy can be improved by reducing viscosity alone, but are going a step further by challenging ourselves to deliver differentiated performance in both fuel economy and wear protection for both older and newer engines.

Oronite has designed a low friction DI system spearheaded by our unique patented friction modifier for heavy duty engines. This friction modifier was developed specifically to deliver enhanced fuel economy beyond reducing viscosity. Other new components complement the system by delivering wear protection at lower viscosity and phosphorus levels.

For more information, please read our article in Compoundings Magazine.

 

This is information one of my friends sent me.

From another source we see:

About PC-11

There is a new heavy duty diesel engine oil category on the way. PC-11—the PC stands for proposed category—offers performance features beyond the current API CJ-4 engine oils. The American Petroleum Institute (API) and Diesel Engine Oil Advisory Panel (DEOAP), acting on a request by the Engine Manufacturers Association (EMA), are developing the new category. First licensing by API was proposed for introduction in 2016 in the formal request; however, that could be pushed back to 2017.

A number of factors drive PC-11, including the need for:

• Fuel efficiency contribution from the engine oil
• Improved oxidation performance
• Improved engine protection from aeration
• Engine oil shear stability protection

Bio-diesel fuel compatibility/protection and engine liner scuffing were dropped from the PC-11 specification, but remain industry concerns.

Before first licensing, engine manufacturers, oil marketers and additive companies will work together to develop the PC-11 performance category, document improved performance features and ready these new oils for the marketplace.

HDDEO.com has been designed to be your source for the latest news and discussion on this new category and its impact on the industry. Lubrizol is actively involved in all aspects of developing the PC-11 performance category, and we will make sure that you are aware of industry progress, each step of the way.

Published on August 27th, 2014

Here we go more on the pc11 oils.

 

 

 

Labels Debated for PC-11 Oils

BY STEVE SWEDBERG • DECEMBER 17, 2014

SAN DIEGO -- Last week, the New Category Development Team took up the ticklish issue of how to label the coming diesel engine oil upgrade for consumers. The upgraded category, known as PC-11, will need two distinct names under the American Petroleum Institute’s licensing system. One could follow the familiar API C series, but the other version must be flagged clearly as a fuel-economy specification for the latest-model engines -- not for existing and older heavy-duty diesels.

Convening here Dec. 9 during the ASTM Committee D2 meeting, the oil’s development team, chaired by Dan Arcy of Shell, was reminded that prior categories posed less difficulty since their viscosity grades were in alignment with traditional SAE J300 viscosity limits.

However, PC-11 presents a fresh dilemma since it will be two categories in one. “PC-11A” will be the normal engine oil, totally backwards compatible with earlier API categories. This version is likely to be called API CK-4, succeeding the current API CJ-4 category.

Its cousin “PC-11B” will have a lower high-temperature, high-shear rate (HTHS) viscosity to offer some improvement in fuel economy. However, there is likelihood that it may not be fully backwards compatible as preferred under API’s Engine Oil Licensing and Certification System, so PC-11B oils cannot simply take up the next letter in the API C sequence.

The naming issue has been discussed for over a year, with several means proposed for differentiating the two oil subcategories. One early proposal came from EMA, the Truck and Engine Manufacturers Association, which asked that each version have improvements in oxidation stability, aeration and shear stability. The major difference between the subcategories is their HTHS limit.

For SAE 10W-30 viscosity oils, HTHS viscosity will be set at a minimum 3.5 centiPoise for PC-11A, and at a lighter 2.9 to 3.2 cP for PC-11B. The oil industry has expressed concern that there is insufficient difference -- just 0.3 cP -- between the PC-11A and PC-11B HTHS specifications to allow for a reasonable blending tolerance when making the finished oils. Retailers have also voiced concern over having two versions of the same viscosity grade on their shelves.

Although SAE 10W-30 oils currently represent a small percent of North America’s heavy-duty engine oil sales -- about 6 percent, according to the additive company Infineum USA -- sales are growing rapidly as more engine manufacturers recommend this grade to capture fuel economy benefits.

EMA confirmed that ACEA (which writes oil specifications for European vehicles) was setting the HTHS limit for XW-30 multigrade oils at 3.2 cP to assure fuel economy. There are no general data supporting this viscosity; however, Volvo Powertrain has data demonstrating a benefit, and has incorporated 3.2 cP HTHS in its own Volvo engine oil specification.

The New Category Development Team had requested guidelines from the API Lubricants Group for naming the two sub-categories. The Lubricants Group responded that for the high HTHS version (PC-11A), it was comfortable with the category name API CK-4. For the low HTHS version (PC-11B), the discussion centered on how to establish an “evergreen” aspect for future categories.

Criteria for oil marketers included minimizing the number of characters that must be displayed, while maintaining a distinct difference between PC-11A High Vis and PC-11B Low Vis. The API Lubricants Group also preferred to see an evergreen name or symbol and asked that the low-viscosity oil not sound like the high-vis oil.

After testing several naming options within the NCDT, agreement was reached on the following system:

PC-11A oils are to be designated as API CK-4, while PC-11B oils would be designated as API FA-4.

In addition, an “H” or “L” would be added to the SAE XW-30 viscosity grade to clearly differentiate the fuel economy (L) and non-fuel economy (H) sub-grades. The following are proposed API service symbols demonstrating how the marks would look. API's Lubricants Group will need to approve the designations as well.

PROPOSED SERVICE SYMBOLS

          

The question of having SAE XW-30 in both H and L versions was presented by Dan Arcy to the SAE J300 Engine Oil Viscosity Classification Task Force the following day, to weigh its concurrence with the concept. The J300 Task Force responded that it was an acceptable proposal, provided there was broad market support for it.

SAE also would have to vote to modify its J300 standard to incorporate the L and H definitions before the proposal could be finalized.

The New Category Development Team is made up of representatives from API, EMA and the American Chemistry Council (which represents additive companies). It also invites input from JAMA, ILMA, ASTM, SAE International and Europe’s CEC to help manage the engine oil development process, following a consensus process.

RELATED STORIES ACEA 2010 Sequence Expires Dec. 22

BY • DECEMBER 3, 2014

OEMs Press on Heavy-Duty Upgrade

BY STEVE SWEDBERG • OCTOBER 8, 2014

HDMO Upgrade Shifts into 2017

BY LISA TOCCI • SEPTEMBER 24, 2014

More Delays for PC-11 and GF-6?

BY STEVE SWEDBERG • JULY 1, 2014

More

How often do you check oil specs ?

 

They do it often here:

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January 2015

Click Bottles Below for Data and Assessments

    SAE 15W-40 TEST RESULTS        

Test Results for HDEO Motor Oils

 

CLICK BOTTLES FOR DETAILS

          Chevron Delo 400LE
  Mobil Delvac 1300 Super Castrol GTX Diesel
  Warren Oil Lubriguard
  Pep Boy's Proline
  Motorcraft Diesel Motor Oil         PHYSICAL TESTS (click test for details)

Standards (a)

                    TBN, mg KOH/g, (ASTM D2896)

 

8.86 11.00 8.38 10.02 11.04 8.30        

Viscosity @ 100ºC, cSt, (ASTM D445)

12.5 to <16.3

15.33 14.67 14.84 15.39 15.32 15.02         Viscosity @ 40ºC, cSt, (ASTM D445)   124.26 106.85 112.34 114.82 114.32 114.16         Viscosity Index (ASTM D2270)   128 142 136 141 140 137         Viscosity @ -20ºC mPa s (cP) (ASTM D5293)

7,000 Max

6,373 5,915 6,088 5,583 5,161 6,162         NOACK volatility, mass % loss, 1 hr, @ 250ºC (ASTM D5800)

13 Max (d)

12.5 11.3 11.8 13.2 11.0 13.2         ELEMENTAL ANALYSIS-b,c   Additives                     Calcium, ppm   1,521 1,308 2,361 1,192 1,255 2,323         Magnesium, ppm   384 860 7 867 1,286 7         Phosphorus ,ppm

1,250 max

1,157 1,002 1,111 1,155 1,215 1,102         Zinc, ppm   1,273 1,116 1,185 1,287 1,363 1,190         Molybdenum, ppm   92 50 2 43 47 <1         Barium, ppm   <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1         Additive and/or other                     Boron, ppm   557 73 7 3 3 3         Silicon, ppm   6 8 5 6 7 4         Potassium, ppm   <5 <5 <5 <5 <5 <5         Manganese, ppm   <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1         Titanium, ppm   <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1         Copper, ppm   <1 6 <1 <1 <1 <1         Sodium, ppm   <5 <5 <5 <5 17 <5         Vanadium, ppm   <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1         Contaminants                     Silver, ppm   <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1         Aluminum, ppm   3 1 <1 <1 <1 2         Chromium, ppm   <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1         Iron, ppm   2 1 2 <1 <1 1         Nickel, ppm   <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1         Lead, ppm   <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 1         Antimony, ppm   <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1         Tin, ppm   <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1        

 

a- Standards, shown in black, are established by API, SAE and others.

b-Test Method used for metal analysis is ASTM ASTM D5185.

c- ASTM D5185-09 Reproducibility by Element.

d- This specification is expressed to two significant figures, therefore results up to 13.5 are considered on specification.

"n/a" - Not applicable.

 

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Copyright 2015 Petroleum Quality Institute of America, LLC. All rights reserved

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Well Skelly I have to say they are pushing the oil viscocity lower for the diesel world. I have seen oils down to 5-30 for diesels. the unique part is there are people using it... I myself have switched to the 5-40 and still feel that the base 40w oil is needed for our older trucks.

Except for my Jeep CRD, EVERYTHING I own is getting 15-40 Conoco Fleet. Main reason for me is the inventory headache.. and almost importantly is the amount of zinc.. All my old junk is flat tappet. And the last time I did the research, couple years ago, that Conoco had the highest amount. I suppose I should do another check.