Fuel lubricity

[Vais01]

Again referring to the Cummins page,

" What materials are incompatible with biodiesel?

Natural rubber, butyl rubber and some types of nitrile rubber (depending on chemical composition, construction and application) may be particularly susceptible to degradation. Also, copper, bronze, brass, tin, lead and zinc can cause deposit formations. The use of these materials and coatings must be avoided for fuel tanks and fuel lines. Fuel fittings and connectors are acceptable due to the small surface area in contact with the fuel.

Note: Contact your vehicle manufacturer to determine if any of the OEM supplied components are at risk with biodiesel in order to prevent engine or vehicle damage."

So the rubber fuel lines are the primary concern however the early VPs did have a brass bushing and brass is one of the compatibility issues. If your pump has been replaced in the last several years it shouldn't be an issue so long as you don't get a bad batch get by the filters.

The other reason not mentioned is filtration. The older trucks have poor filtration when it comes to bio, you need a good 2 stage filtration at a minimum and our trucks didn't come with them from the factory.

It all comes down to personal preference but I'm not sure why anybody would WANT to run higher doses of bio. Just changing your filters out an extra round will negate any minor advantage in price (along with the slight decrease in mileage).

I see the advantage in running B2 or even B5 for lubricity reasons. B2 offers nearly 2 and a half times better HFRR improvement over the 2 cycle mix that many like to use on this forum. Much beyond that and the potential problems that can arise pushes it past the point of diminishing returns for me. Part of the reason I posted the Cummins link was for their requirements on fuel standards and storage. It is nearly impossible for us to know where our fuel has come from, how its been handled and how long it's been stored. Another quote from Mercedes in the link I posted:

"The problems seem to be occurring in distribution and Mercedes reported that (in 2014) as much as 15% of retail biodiesel was out of spec.

There is little regulation or concern at this point as to what happens to the product once it leaves the terminal. Our infrastructure transports and stores bio much the same as it does regular #2 and that is where the problems arise. Until there are better laws and regulations put in place to transport, and store biodiesel the problems will continue.

You can add PKR as a non compatible hose material also and I would say alot of folks here have lines on their truck with PKR tubes. If you are running Parker Push-Lock lines you have PKR. Nylon tube lines are recommended for running biodiesel blends up to and over B20.

As far as have seen there are several variations of biodiesel from low cloud to high cloud. Low cloud non-distilled, Low cloud extruded, Low cloud distilled, Mid cloud, Mid high cloud and high cloud.

Obviously low cloud would be best to use but has a higher cost associated with it. Instead what is done is using what's appropriate for the conditions expected. According to a few OEM charts there are 3 primary fuel blends. #2, winterized #2 and #1.

[dripley]

Biodiesel FAQ's (2) (1).docI did  a little checking around on my fuel lines today. I have an AD on mine with Eaton H20108 fuel lines. They are nitrile and this is what i found on it from Eaton.

 

It appears from the FAQ that B-20 and below, while not good, that temp is going to be a major concern. Any one know what kind of temps the fuel can get up to in the lines?

 

If what I am reading about pump labeling if the pump is not labeled to a B number that it is supposed to be B-5 or less. It seems the plain labeled bio I have bought acts the best with the truck. quiet and good mileage results. But there still remains the fact I am not sure what I am buying and putting thru the truck. I am going to have to do a little rethinking on this. I found a couple of stations here with straight #2 and the price is the same. I would even entertain changing the fuel lines since the truck seems to like the blend. Bio compatible fuel line is not that expensive. The fittings would possibly cost more that the line. 

[diesel4life]

Every state is different in labeling requirements at the pump. Some states have to label the level of biofuel used at the pumps regardless of amount and some are not required to label anything. Ohio is not required to label their pumps if the level is below B10, and the ethanol labeling requirements are even more lax than biodiesel.

[dripley]

From the little research I have done today the FTC has had regulations in place for labeling since 2009. I have been seeing them for a while but never paid much attention to them until recently. They appear similar in the five states I have been working around for the past 6 months. NC, SC, GA, TN, and AL

[diesel4life]

Dave you might be right on that. For some reason I thought B10 was the cut off but according to this site it is B5.

http://www.natso.com/blog/truckstop-biodiesel-pump-labeling-requirements-unraveled-

Not exactly an official page but seems pretty solid.

Kind of unrelated but for anyone that might be interested in ethanol posting requirements for your state here it is. They vary quite a bit.

http://www.fuel-testers.com/state_guide_ethanol_laws.html

[diesel4life]

I found a couple of stations here with straight #2 and the price is the same.

What level of bio are you seeing that is the same as straight #2?

B2 and even B5 should be pretty close in price to regular #2 and shouldnt be a problem with your fuel lines.

[dripley]

Dave you might be right on that. For some reason I thought B10 was the cut off but according to this site it is B5.

http://www.natso.com/blog/truckstop-biodiesel-pump-labeling-requirements-unraveled-

Not exactly an official page but seems pretty solid.

Kind of unrelated but for anyone that might be interested in ethanol posting requirements for your state here it is. They vary quite a bit.

http://www.fuel-testers.com/state_guide_ethanol_laws.html

 

The NATSO page is one I looked at yesterday along with many others. They did seem to agree on the labeling of B-5 or less not having to show the percentage. The one my truck likes the best are label like this. The ones labeled bio mass work fine but dont seem to run as quiet as bioblend. Not sure why.

Edited August 26, 2015 by dripley

[dripley]

What level of bio are you seeing that is the same as straight #2?

B2 and even B5 should be pretty close in price to regular #2 and shouldnt be a problem with your fuel lines.

 

Here in this part of Alabama they are all priced within .04 of .05 cents of each other. I would have to look closer at some of the labels to get a better idea.

 

After reading from Eaton's site on the fuel lines that I have the B-5 and less should be ok like you say. But they do say that the temps the lines are exposed to could accelerate degradation of the lines especially with B-20 or greater. I am not thinking the lines get exposed to the kind of temps they are speaking of, 125* C. .

[Mopar1973Man]

You would trip a error...

http://articles.mopar1973man.com/2nd-generation-24v-dodge-cummins/59-obdii-error-codes-cummins/155-p0168-decreased-engine-performance-due-to-high-injection-pump-fuel-temperature

 

So far I've only seen one case reported in a very long time.

[Vais01]

Dave you might be right on that. For some reason I thought B10 was the cut off but according to this site it is B5.

http://www.natso.com/blog/truckstop-biodiesel-pump-labeling-requirements-unraveled-

Not exactly an official page but seems pretty solid.

Kind of unrelated but for anyone that might be interested in ethanol posting requirements for your state here it is. They vary quite a bit.

http://www.fuel-testers.com/state_guide_ethanol_laws.html

Not to be rude but I have been saying this since much earlier in the thread.

Up to 5% biodiesel or renewable diesel does not require labeling.

[dripley]

Any idea as to what temp it takes to set that code? It would seem that the sensor that detects this is in the VP. Any idea as to what temp the fuel would be flowing thru the system? I would think the return line would be the warmest for sure. I have always been one to run my tank very low before refilling, especially on the highway. The return line on my AD returns fuel to the basket so on a low tank I am probably pumping some warm fuel to the VP at that stage. Anyway to read that sensor to know whats going on?

[Vais01]

Here in this part of Alabama they are all priced within .04 of .05 cents of each other. I would have to look closer at some of the labels to get a better idea.

After reading from Eaton's site on the fuel lines that I have the B-5 and less should be ok like you say. But they do say that the temps the lines are exposed to could accelerate degradation of the lines especially with B-20 or greater. I am not thinking the lines get exposed to the kind of temps they are speaking of, 125* C. .

On my rig I have seen fuel temps as high as 180* F. About 150* F is common. Just out if curiosity I'll keep tabs on the data logger and see what my fuel temps become after several short trips and possibly a long one.

[Vais01]

Any idea as to what temp it takes to set that code? It would seem that the sensor that detects this is in the VP. Any idea as to what temp the fuel would be flowing thru the system? I would think the return line would be the warmest for sure. I have always been one to run my tank very low before refilling, especially on the highway. The return line on my AD returns fuel to the basket so on a low tank I am probably pumping some warm fuel to the VP at that stage. Anyway to read that sensor to know whats going on?

I would think the temp is monitored within the VP44 within the electronics cooling section.

Now as far as temps go I will check my book to see if the min-max values are listed.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Vais01

[dripley]

Not to be rude but I have been saying this since much earlier in the thread.

Up to 5% biodiesel or renewable diesel does not require labeling.

 

 I have seen what you are saying about the B-5 or less but also seen things like this from Oregonhttps://www.portlandoregon.gov/bds/article/160802 saying you have to label even B-5. It does seem to go both ways but most of what i have seen says you dont and some say it has to be labeled but no percentage shown if 5 or below. I think it is confusing at best.

[dripley]

On my rig I have seen fuel temps as high as 180* F. About 150* F is common. Just out if curiosity I'll keep tabs on the data logger and see what my fuel temps become after several short trips and possibly a long one.

 

how are you checking the temp?

[Vais01]

I have seen what you are saying about the B-5 or less but also seen things like this from Oregonhttps://www.portlandoregon.gov/bds/article/160802 saying you have to label even B-5. It does seem to go both ways but most of what i have seen says you dont and some say it has to be labeled but no percentage shown if 5 or below. I think it is confusing at best.

Several links I have seen state not required but I am looking into it more.

I'm sure it's only a matter of time before some type of standardization is done.

[Vais01]

how are you checking the temp?

Through my Quadzilla's data logger.

[Mopar1973Man]

I'll have to dig through some books to find it.

[Vais01]

Yesterday I spoke with 3 Bosch qualified builders of VP44 pumps and the internal seals are all made up of viton and biodiesel has little to no effect on viton.

Cummins reps said the VP44 on our trucks as long as it is a newer rebuild can safely handle up to B20 without issue but it's recommended to use B10 or lower.

[Vais01]

I'll have to dig through some books to find it.

I have gone through my books and several PDF files with no success of finding the mmaximum temp.