NV4500 Problem

[eddielee]

You should look through the checklist and inspect everything you can to eliminate as many possibilities as you can. Each component has it's own affect on the way the trans shifts. Especially pay attention to the bolts holding the slave cylinder to the transmission and the trans mount bolts.

 

[leathermaneod]

I really appreciate the help and advice eddielee! I just checked the fluid in the trans and it was fine. I also looked everything else over while under the truck and it all seems tip top. I texted the PO and asked him if he remember the truck shifting hard in cold weather and his response was "yeah and my 6spd(nv5600) is the same way. What does it do, go in gear hard?" So I guess this is all due to the weather. Im just way to OCD about my truck haha.

[leathermaneod]

Just wanted to update this for anyone in the future. Last night I found Mike's vid on youtube about his clutch Master and Slave issues and replacement process. He mentioned that his pedal was feeling odd and that there was some wetness under the master cylinder pushrod on the inside of the firewall. Seeing that caused me to remember that I had seen the same wetness in the same place on my truck! I had never worried about it because the reservoir was never low. That made me remeber that I had felt my pedal change very slightly once or twice but I had attributed it to the truck being new to me and me not being used to it or the shop being hard on it when the had the truck and wearing down the clutch. Now everything makes sense! I do need new hydros! Now the question is whether or not to go with Napa parts or Southbend...which do you all think? I also figured out why I don't have the clutch safety switch...one of the PO s just didn't transfer it over when they switched out the master before, or it just went bad and they removed and bypassed it instead of replacing it. So the nice thing about the SB is that it comes with an already installed safety switch, so I would have one that should be trouble free. The only downside is the cost...about $315 for SB or around $160 for parts store...but then I just keep running with no clutch safety...

[dripley]

The SB Is a heavy duty unit compared to the OE. The parts store is most likely like the OE. 

I replaced my master cylinder with one from the parts house years ago. At the time I did not know they came as a unit. Just knew mine was bad and bought a replacement. I did get it to work but getting the air out was a pita. I have also since replaced my slave,and it came with a bleeder screw on it and installed much easier. This has worked fine for me for the past several years. Rock Auto has both the hydro assembly and safety switch for around $200 total. They also have the individual parts. Check it out.

I am not knocking the SB unit at all. From what i hear it is a very good unit. If you are tight for cash the above is just another way to go. Again its your choice.

Edited January 15, 2016 by dripley

[leathermaneod]

Thanks dripley! I appreciate the reply. My other thought was to just keep running without the safety switch. Is there any very compelling reason that I need it? Or would I have less hassle to just leave it bypassed the way it is? Another thing I just noticed is that I have some wetness under my brake master cylinder on the inside of the firewall as well, but I don't have any braking issues and I have a good pedal and the brake fluid is never low. Should I be worried about that too??

So I went out to the truck and looked things over some more. Clutch master cylinder is definitely wet inside and outside of the firewall. Brake master cylinder is also definitely wet inside the firewall but does not seem to be on the outside at all. I also tested the brake pedal with the engine off and it got pretty darn hard. It may have crept down some but nowhere close to the floor and it was very hard, did not seem to be going any lower. It was and always has been pretty slow to return though. I believe I have the Hydro boost brakes. Does all this sound normal? could the wetness by the brake master cylinder just have worked its way over from the clutch?

[dripley]

I bypassed my safety switch 7 years or so ago. As long as you always remember you should be OK. All it take is once. I reached in thru the window one day and hit the starter not thinking. It was in reverse and as soon as I turned the key the engine caught and the truck took off. Fortunately there was a 30 yd roll off dumpster behind it. I had my hitch on and it hit the dumpster, pushed it off the pavement until it stuck in the dirt. The truck was sitting there spinning the rear wheel on the asphalt. I was stunned at that and the fact i had started the truck. The results could have been much worse. Welcome to another personal decision.

Then to the booster on the brake system I have to defer to the more knowledgeable on that. The leak is probably going to get worse and will have to be dealt with. I dont know enough about it to advise any one. My pedal is also hard with the engine off and I can only push it down maybe 1.5 or 2" down.

[leathermaneod]

Ok thanks again dripley. I actually just decided to pull the trigger on the napa unit. I figured its a lot more practical and will save me about $150 over the SB unit, if it fixes the problem. If not, I will return it and get the SB. 

I'll have to start digging around for info on the booster leak. I am hoping maybe its just clutch fluid that worked its way over there, but I kind of doubt it...maybe someone else who knows about it will chime in too.

[BBHD]

I too was a member of the PO bypassed clutch switch. I just wired a little toggle switch in and use it as a sort of security feature fwiw. 

Also this might help

 

[leathermaneod]

Thanks for all the info everyone. I got the new clutch hydraulics installed today. I went with a sealed, pre filled unit from Napa. It was about $150. The removal and install really went pretty well. The hardest parts were getting the old unit out and the new one in(so much stuff to work around and fish through). My slave cylinder mounting studs came out rather than the nuts coming off. So I had to clean them up(they were rusty) and put the studs back in. I used blue lock tight on the studs to help them stay in next time. I didn't really drive it yet, but I'm hoping it will fix my issues. The pedal is definitely different. It used to have a ton of free play when all the way out, now it's fairly secure. Time will tell I guess. Oh btw, for anyone planning to do this in the future, be sure to watch Mike's (Mopar1973Man's) video on youtube. It was very helpful!

[dripley]

I hope this fixes your problem. You are more patient than I. There is no way I could have not driven tonight. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

[leathermaneod]

haha well I was torn between finding out right then and waiting till tomorrow. Part of me doesn't want to know if its not fixed lol. Mike commented on my similar post on Cummins Forum and said that he has seen problems with air in the pre filled units if they are mishandled, so I'm kinda worried about that now too...I guess I should have messed with it a little to make sure there was no air in it before installing it... hopefully not....it would really stink to still have issues now and not know wether its caused by air or a bad pilot bearing...then have to remove the hydros again just to bleed them...knowing my luck thats exactly how this is going to go...I sure hope not

Edited January 17, 2016 by leathermaneod

[leathermaneod]

Well the problem isn't fixed :-( still jerks real good when shifting into reverse. I'm really starting to think its the pilot bearing, but I guess my next step should be to remove the new hydros and attempt to bleed them and see if any air comes out...what do you guys think? am I on the right track here? Will I have a lot of trouble getting the slave back in now that the little hold down tabs are broken?

Edited January 17, 2016 by leathermaneod

[dripley]

Is reverse the only one doing it now? Bleeding would be worth a try and no you will not have a problem installing the slave. You just have to push it in and get the nuts started on it. It is not difficult to push in. 

[leathermaneod]

It's honestly too early to tell if reverse is the only problem, although I was not impressed with the shifting in general today while out and about. It's fine when cold but as soon as things start to warm up it starts acting up. I just got done attempting to bleed it though and there is absolutely no change at least as far as reverse goes. As soon as it idled for a couple mins and I tried to shift to reverse it clunked and jerked. So what do I look at for a cause now? Pilot bearing? Warped flywheel? Damaged clutch? I guess the only thing to do is pull the trans and inspect everything? 

Something else I forgot to mention, the jerk and cluck when going into reverse happen even if the truck hasn't moved at all. After I got done bleeding the system, I started the truck and it worked fine at first, but after it sat warming up for a few minutes I got the usual jerk and clunk on shifting to reverse. That was without the truck ever moving. So that proves that something is keeping the trans turning all the time...

[dripley]

Running out of external ideas here. My tranny has similarities with yours but my clutch is new and it seems to be getting better. Very much like it was when it was when the truck was new. I had to put in a higher gear to get revers quite regularly. Of course I have a 6 speed and not a five speed. 

[leathermaneod]

That's interesting about your trans...I wonder what causes it...maybe I don't actually have a real issue then? I can live with it if it's just the way it is but I'm concerned that it's not right and is spinning the trans all the time...when you had issues getting into R, would yours move the truck when it went in or just not go in? 

I'm really wondering if the flywheel could be warped or something. I do get kind of a shaky launch as I let the clutch out a lot of the time, and my pedal is pretty far off the floor when it starts to grab, and almost all the way out till it's fully engaged. Maybe my clutch is just worn out too. Although I'm not sure how that would cause it to not fully disengage...maybe this is a combination of all these clutch components wearing out...

[dripley]

My clutch and the last were and are a little shakey/jerky/grabbly what ever you want to call. That is pretty much only in second and I release the clutch slowly. If I let it out over a half second or so it is does not do it. This is only in second, first and reverse are fine. This was with the Valair and the SB not the OE, it was always smooth. Knowing what clutch you had would be nice to know. My previous 2 were both organic facings both sides. The Valair surprised me that it was grabby. The new SB does not since has an organic and a feramic side. I expected it to be grabby. 

As far as reverse moving the truck I take you mean when it clunks into gear, I am sure t has happened to me in the past but in this truck but dont particularly remeber it. Early on I got used to having to put the tranny in a higher gear before going for reverse. Always chalked that one up to the size of the tranny. 

If the flywheel was warped I would think you would feel that. Clutch disk maybe not. Warped components could cause the clutch to drag. Next time you are in it put it in a higher then take it out, leave the clutch in and sit for 5 or ten seconds. Then try and put it in gear. At least you could see if it starts spinning  again. I am going to check mine tomorrow and see it acts that way. Pretty sure mine just spins down to a stop. I will add that sometimes,very rarely, even after shifting to a higher gear first does not let mine all the way into gear. Must stop in the wrong place. Pretty rare though.

 

[leathermaneod]

I will try putting in a high gear tomorrow and then waiting like you said, then try reverse and see what happens. I'll report back with the results. What exactly will this test tell us? To get it in reverse smoothly, I usually just hit first gear, but than can be slightly hard to get into as well, no clunking or jerking of the truck though...And yes I meant it moves the truck when it clunks into gear. I thought that if it did that from a fresh start, having never moved, that indicated that the engine had to be spinning up the trans...is that incorrect? I guess I don't totally understand how this all works and what components should be spinning at what times...another thing worth mentioning is that sometimes when I try to shift into fourth gear, if the clutch is not totally in(i didnt time things right) it will grind just a bit. Not sure if thats normal or not...it happens with the clutch pedal out even the slightest bit...

From everything that you have said I take it you are leaning towards me not having any real issue? Just a slightly quirky trans? The biggest thing to try and determine right now is, wether or not this is urgent to address...someone said early on that a bad pilot bearing will ruin the input shaft. And someone else said that a dragging clutch is very hard on the syncros. I have a lot of stuff I'd like to do with this trans out, but its almost impossible for me to do this job myself right now, and I don't trust a shop to do everything I want done. Not to mention I don't think I could afford it lol. So if it is urgent, I'll go to the best shop I know of, and just have them pull the trans and see what components are worn out and have them replaced...not my first choice by any means...otherwise, I'll wait till spring, go home to PA and work on this with my dad. That will give me plenty of time to figure out what all I want to replace/go over while I'm in there, and acquire the parts. 

Edited January 18, 2016 by leathermaneod

[dripley]

Ir you crank the truck with the clutch in and it spins something is making it spin. I usually get in my check for neutral and fire it off with the clutch out. The 4th gear shift could be a sign tranny wear or just pushing into gear to hard. I have experienced before. Once we get inside the tranny I am not qualified for those answers. I understand how the the driveline parts work together and take them off a put them on but would leave internals to someone else, The 6 speed especially.

Yes I am leaning toward a quirky tranny and maybe a worn clutch, syncro's or such. I also hate to see you have to pull the tranny to find out. Once you pull the tranny you might as well be committed to at the very least replacing the clutch to make it worth while. If you find more then you will need to commit more to it. I still think I would keep an eye on it, start saving some money to do it right. If it keeps getting worse do it sooner rather than later.

But we are talking about your truck and not mine. I dont have to pay for anything that breaks

[leathermaneod]

I appreciate your advice. I just have to find a balance here, I can't afford to "what if?" everything lol. When I mentioned about it jumping after a first start, that is only after it sits and warms up. I normally start it with the clutch in, and when I do, I can shift to any gear just fine. Then, like today after bleeding it, I put it in neutral and got out to clean up my tools. Got back in a few mins later, and tried to put it in reverse. It went in fine but clunked and jumped. If i take it out of gear and leave the clutch in, then wait 10 seconds like you said, and it jumps going into reverse, would that indicate that the clutch is dragging? and if it doesn't then its not? I guess if that proves that its dragging then I will get the trans pulled. In that case I think I would replace the clutch, pilot bearing, throwout bearing, rear main seal, and drive shaft carrier bearing(and anything else in there that the shop specifically says is bad). But I wouldn't trust the shop to tackle the 5th gear nut or replace any syncros...