NV4500 Problem

[dripley]

If you stop the tranny from turning by putting it into gear and take it out gear it should go right back in even waiting 5 or 10 seconds later unless something is dragging and respinning the gear train. No matter what you do I would use the put it in a higher gear to go for reverse method. It will be easier on the tranny.

[leathermaneod]

Ok that makes sense. I'll give it a shot tomorrow and report back. Thanks again for all the help! 

[leathermaneod]

Well I got the truck checked out by a trans shop that was recommended to me. After driving it, they are very confident that it needs a new clutch and that the shifting problem is caused by it not properly disengaging. They said the overall health of the trans seems to be very good. They want about $1000 total parts and labor to replace the clutch and clutch components. I'm pretty sure I'm going to go home to PA and tackle this myself with help from my dad and a friend or two. We have a place to do it inside so the cold won't be as much of and issue. Now I just need to get the parts and decide what all should be taken care of at the same time. I am already planning on the rear main seal, the pilot bear, throwout bearing, clutch, drive shaft center support bearing. Someone mentioned the input shaft seal and bearing? where should I get those and how do I replace them? also, should I mess with the fifth gear nut? if so where do I get the parts for that? How do I reseal the trans? just RTV? Also if anyone has clutch recommendations let me know. I know people are going to say just call SB or Valair and see what they say but I want your opinions. I know I want/need a single disc. I just want to know if I need something like an SB or if I should save the money and get one from Napa...I don't tow and I don't plan to make any more power. I have 75hp sticks and a smarty. I may downgrade to RV275's when I do injectors, which won't be any time soon lol. I want to be able to tow if I need to though. Biggest thing is I want this thing to LAST. 

Thanks in advance everyone!

[dripley]

A little late here, work has been demanding the last few days. As far as a clutch, talking to SB or Valair is a good place to start. The vendors here are good also. Just tell them what performance mods you have and anything you plan to add later. Dont let any of them steer you to a DD, you dont need it unless you plan some crazy stuff in the future. 

I ran the stock clutch for 250k before I replaced it. At 100k a added a Banks Stinger plus system to mine which added, according to Banks, up to 75 RWHP. It did add good power but I never dyno'ed it to know how much. About 25k later I added RV275's. I pulled a 5th wheel, 15k pounds, with the rig and never slipped it. 

I swapped out the oe clutch for this http://dieselautopower.com/1999-2005-cummins-nv5600-13-x-1-375-single-disc-hd-replacement-brass-woven-organic/ from Valair. I had the oe fly wheel reground. The clutch held fine but was very grabby and I lost the throw out bearing at 70k. I lost the clutch 30k later. In fairness to Valair it seems I did not do a good job of bolting the tranny back up and that was most likely the cause of the premature clutch failure. 

I just installed this SB http://dieselautopower.com/south-bend-clutch-clutch-complete-kit-475hp-1000ft-lb-with-flywheel-1947-ofek/. Didn't want to use the old fly wheel again. I had to ditch the Banks chip and installed an edge comp and there seem to be many people running this clutch with good results. It is a touch grabby on engagement in 2nd but not bothersome at all. I expect a long happy life out of this one. 

I put seals in the tranny but dont remember where i got them but I am think from Rock Auto or a local parts store. It seems to me that bearing and seals come in a brand name package, but telling a difference when you take them out of the package is hard to do. Most of the one I have seen bear no markings on them. Many share part numbers with each other. So I am not sure what I get sometimes. 

I cant answer any questions on the tranny. Other than taking them off and reinstalling them, I have no experience.

[leathermaneod]

I actually called both SB and Valair yesterday. I should have clarified before, I wasn't against calling them, I just wanted some real world experiences from people that had them. I didn't want to just take their word for what I needed. SB is just way to expensive, minimum $850 from them. Valair is better at $599 and Fred at DAP, who I also talked to today, said that he personally prefers Valair. Both SB and Valair recommended a clutch that includes a 13" flywheel kit for the power that my truck makes. The part number for the Valair is NMU70279-01-5SCE. I think that is the one ill be going with. I am currently in the process of trying to figure out what all else I want to replace at the same time. The list just keeps getting longer and my bill for parts is upwards of $1200 by now :-( Basically I'm looking at rear main seal, the clutch kit, a new fork, new pivot ball, new input bearing and bearing cup and trans front seal as well as trans pilot bearing, trans rear seal, T case input and output seals as well as rear output bushing. Then add the $100 in Mopar trans fluid. Now for the two dilemma's I have reached. What should I do about fifth gear while I have this thing apart? Truck has 254,xxx miles and I don't know if anything has ever been done to 5th gear. The guy at Quad 4x4 said that if it is still stock, and not loose, there is a good chance its not going to fail. Heres the thing, I want to have a solution ready incase I tear it down and find a loose or modified nut. I will be working on a limited amount of time, thats the reason for being prepared ahead of time. So my options are, 1) use the retainer made by Active transmission with the 4 teeth that engage with the nut, its easy to find on google if you don't know what I mean. It looks foolproof, and they claim no failures, but I found a few threads saying it failed and did a lot more damage than just loosing 5th gear. The other downside is that it costs $155. 2) Get a new updated nut with setscrews and use a ton of lock tight. Its cheap, only $25, but it seems they are about 50/50 on wether or not they work. 3) pretty much out of the question unless I can find an EXPERT welder, but there is always tacking the nut in place and hoping the shaft doesn't shear off. 4) Final option is kind of an overall for the trans to make sure I don't screw anything up. It is to pull the trans and T case and take them to a local trans shop that my dad recommended for them to look over and do whatever work they think it needs, i. e. input shaft bearing or not, seals if it needs them, best fifth gear fix they know of ect. not including a full rebuild because it doesnt need it. Doing a whole new manishaft and fifth gear is not an option right now. I am also a little nervous about doing the seals without the proper tools. That's all I can come up with so far and I need to make a decision on this. Please don't hesitate to give me your opinion and/or any experience you have had with any of these methods! Oh by the way, another issue I'm running into, the one big reason for letting a trans shop look it over and fix 5th gear, I REALLY hate to spend over $100 on the stupid tools to tighten the 5th gear nut and hold the main shaft. Especially when I'm going to use them once or twice and never again. Anyone know of a place to rent them or someone that would loan me them in the Watertown, NY, Boyertown, PA or anywhere in between area? Also, should I get a Speedy Sleeve for the rear main seal right away? or is it likely undamaged?

Edited January 21, 2016 by leathermaneod

[The_Hammer]

I was reading up on 5th gear fixes while contemplating an auto to manual swap. The BEST way to fix it would be to replace the shaft with an updated unit like the Torque King, which was offered by Quad4x4. The problem though is that Quad4x4 no longer manufactures the Torque King and I was unable to find anything else like it.

I've read the pros and cons of using a new nut with set screws. The issue (as far as I can tell) with using the nut and set screws is that no one ever dimples the shaft for the set screws. After the nut is torqued to spec, drill a small shallow hole (dimple) in the shaft through each set screw hole. What this does is allow the set screws to get a much better hold on the shaft by actually screwing IN to the shaft, rather than sitting on top of it.

Transmissions can get expensive quick, I've got over $4k in my 47RE now. I'm not a rich man by any stretch of the imagination and trying to cough up that kind of money sucked, big time. The thing to remember is that you have to do it right, especially if you want more power later on. The money might hurt up front, but when your back on the road and everything is trouble free it will all be worth it. 

[leathermaneod]

I really appreciate your response! That is an interesting take on how to fix the fifth gear nut. I hadn't heard of dimpling it like you suggest before. The only issue I can see with that is, wouldn't that weaken the shaft? If welding can weaken it enough to break it couldn't drilling small holes do the same? I sure do know what you mean about doing things right though. That's why I am agonizing over parts and how to best handle this situation. I do have a limit on how much I want to spend right now though. I'm trying very hard to find a balance between doing everything that needs to be done and not going overboard. 

[dripley]

The clutch you are looking at is the same one I bought 100k ago. Never did like it, very grabby for organic facings. Much grabbier than the SB. It is the one I mentioned in my previous post. Maybe the guy that installed it screwed something up, I dont know. Plenty of folks here use them. It was a bad experience all in all. When I bought my SB Fred tried to steer to a Valair DD but I had already decided on a SB single. Fred and folks at DAP are good people and I will do business with the again they are top notch. Again tranny internals are out of my realm of knowledge.

[leathermaneod]

Very interesting! Thanks for the heads up on that. I'll have to do some more research on that particular clutch and have another talk with fred about it. 

[tonyjsan]

I just recently went threw something similar to what you are experiencing, there is a thread somewhere I started about my issues.

All my problems started with the install of a SB DD clutch (plus having 2 sets of SB hydro's fail within a year, naturally after the 90 warranty). 

Basically I had hard to ****, blocking etc. pick a term. I complained, over a period of 1.5 years, to the place that installed the SB DD clutch, they told me it was normal, well it's not normal.

I called SB, talked to a Peter, he made it all good, I was sent a brand new Single Disk SB 13" as I recall. 

Once the SB single disc installed, problems gone, aside from 3rd gear being fussy at times, but I also know 3rd gear synchro getting weak (I have 225,000 miles on nv4500).

I'm still not sure what was wrong, if the SB DD was installed wrong, was defective etc. I do recall reading somewhere, that SB had a batch of bad SB DD clutch's, in which for whatever reasons they where not releasing correctly.

One final note Peter did seem to hint that if using DD it's recommended to upgrade input shaft to the 1.375, and I believe the SB hydro may be beginning to fail again, I will not be getting another SB hydro for sure. 

I will stay with Single Disc, whenever current clutch needs replacement.

 

[The_Hammer]

7 hours ago, leathermaneod said:

I really appreciate your response! That is an interesting take on how to fix the fifth gear nut. I hadn't heard of dimpling it like you suggest before. The only issue I can see with that is, wouldn't that weaken the shaft? If welding can weaken it enough to break it couldn't drilling small holes do the same? I sure do know what you mean about doing things right though. That's why I am agonizing over parts and how to best handle this situation. I do have a limit on how much I want to spend right now though. I'm trying very hard to find a balance between doing everything that needs to be done and not going overboard. 

Welding can create enough heat to adversely affect the tempering of the steel, causing it to weaken. The holes only need to be deep enough for the tips of the set screws to rest in, ~1/16".

[leathermaneod]

I appreciate the advice. Drilling the holes would certainly be worth trying if there is no other good option. I'm not sure how hard it would be to drill them in the right spot while dealing with the threads on the shaft though. 

Right now its looking like my dad an I are going to pull the trans an take it to a reputable local shop for them to go over it and deal with 5th gear if there is an issue. Then we'll install the clutch and trans.

So heres a story for you all. I actually just ordered 2 rear main seals. I called cummins to place the order and they told me that the one with the wear sleeve didn't come with an installation tool :-(. I also asked if you can use the one that come with a wear sleeve, without the wear sleeve if you don't need it. The parts guy wasn't sure as he said the seal part numbers were different. He recommended I just start with the one that came with the install tool unless I really need the wear sleeve. I also told him that my FSM says that if there is a wear mark, you can just set the seal in a little deeper. He said he didn't know but offered to transfer me to service so I could ask them. I tried to ask them, but I couldn't talk to a tech, but rather some lady that answered the phone. I'm pretty sure she was convinced that I had a Dodge truck with a Dodge engine not a Cummins. She said she asked a tech about setting the seal deeper and they said not too, but then I asked her if they thought 250,000 miles would cause my truck to have a wear mark and she said, "in a dodge pickup truck yes, that would be time for some major engine work. Now if it was an 18 wheeler it would be more like 500,000." Thats why I say I'm pretty sure she thought I had a Dodge engine lol so i ordered both figuring ill return the one i don't need.

Edited January 22, 2016 by leathermaneod

[The_Hammer]

God forbid they let you talk to a tech for a couple of minutes, I hate dealing with places like that. 

I've seen seals set back a bit to clear a wear spot, though it's not ideal. 

A good center punch will keep the drill bit straight, even on a threaded shaft. 

Edited January 22, 2016 by The_Hammer