Need Help With CR injector Diagnosis

[Tractorman]

A friend of mine is the second owner of a 2007 Cummins 2500 truck, 4x4, auto transmission, - all stock parts. He purchased the truck in January of 2013 with 104,000 miles on the odometer. The odometer currently reads 205,000 miles. A tuner has been disconnected from the engine for troubleshooting purposes. Until recently, the truck has started and ran well. I am trying to assist him to diagnose the following problem.

In early December, he notified me that the truck started to run very poorly just as he was arriving home. He recorded these codes:

P0205 Fuel Injector 5 Circuit

P2149 Fuel Injector Group 2 Supply Voltage Circuit

Using a multi-meter he checked the resistance of all six injector solenoids for comparison. All were normal except for cylinder #5 which showed a high resistance.

On December 15th he replaced that injector solenoid with a new Bocsh unit. After the repair was completed the engine would crank over, but would not start. He said the starter seemed to be cranking at the normal speed.

On December 17th he was able to get back to the project. He primed the fuel system with the lift pump using the “bump the starter” technique for about 25 seconds. With battery jumper cables hooked up from another vehicle the engine started quickly and ran smoothly. All seemed well. He drove the truck for about 15 miles over the next couple of days.

It is a couple of days later and he notifies me and says that “check gauges” light came on and the engine oil pressure was reading very low. He checked the oil level and found that it was way over the full mark.

At this point I recommended to not drive the truck and I would come over to his house and assist. I checked the engine oil level – it was very high and diluted with fuel. I removed #5 injector solenoid to inspect the two o-rings. The one on the injector looked like it had a possible tear, so I installed a new one. The o-ring in the nut looked fine. I re-installed the injector solenoid and placed the valve cover on loosely, started the engine, and then shut it off about a minute later. I then removed the valve cover and restarted the engine to check for possible fuel leaks. Right away I noticed fuel coming out of the top of #5 injector solenoid. I realized then that the ball and set screw must be missing.

Since my friend had already discarded the old injector solenoid, I removed #1 injector solenoid and removed the set screw and ball for a sample. We went to the hardware store and with luck we were able to identically match both the ball and set screw.

We put everything back together and went to start the engine. The engine would crank, but not start (just like a few days before). Except, this time after many, many attempts it will not fire at all. We have now hooked up a battery charger to maintain the charge.

A few minutes later I crank the starter for a longer period of time and the engine catches, but only on one cylinder and is detonating as if the timing was extremely advanced. I release the key and the engine continues to barely run in this manner. A few seconds later I turn off the key because none of the other cylinders are picking up. During the time the engine was running, heavy white smoke was coming out of the exhaust.

A few seconds later I crank the engine, but no fire at all – just like before. I do a few more short starting attempts and have the same result – no fire on any cylinders. I am beginning to wonder if there is an injector leaking fuel into a cylinder causing low rail pressure and early ignition in that cylinder.

I decide to do an experiment. I disable the grid heaters and remove a through bolt on the intake manifold so I can get close to the cylinders with a small shot of ether. The idea is to get the engine to spin faster to build rail pressure. I have my friend start spinning the starter and I give a quick shot of ether into the intake manifold. I hear the smooth clatter of all cylinders firing briefly and the engine begins run again on only one cylinder, barely carrying itself, and detonating just like before with white smoke out of the exhaust.

At this point I am stumped. I am having trouble believing that replacing an injector solenoid would cause this symptom, especially after the truck ran fine for a couple of days despite the internal fuel leak.

Is it possible for an injector to have been leaking a small quantity of fuel into the cylinder for awhile (even before the injector solenoid replacement) and is now showing its ugly head?

I don’t have any access to the necessary test equipment to perform some of the tests that will probably be recommended on this forum. I would just like to hear from anyone who might be able to tell me if I am on the right track, or anyone who could get me started on the right track.

My friend just called me and said he just read the codes with his newly purchased scanner. The only codes currently displayed are P0201 through P0206 (Fuel injector 1-6 Circuit) and the code for the disconnected intake heaters.

I apologize for the long post, but I did not want to leave out any information that could help.

Thank you in advance,

- John

[Mopar1973Man]

Might read these and see if they help out.

[Guest 04Mach1]

My first thought reading through the post is an injector just pouring fuel down a cylinder and the fuel is bypassing the rings. If he is lucky the cylinder hasn't been washed out causing broken rings and cylinder scoring. This can be easily diagnosed by performing an "Idle Speed Balance Test" which will show misfiring and cylinder contribution. Next would be a "Cylinder Cutout Test" which will audibly identify the misfiring cylinder. My advice anytime replacing CR injectors is to replace all 6 or 8 at the same time.

 

Now I don't see where it says a 6.7 or a 5.9. if it's a 6.7 there is a high likelihood that the EGR cooler will have fuel puddling in it which could quickly lead to a catastrophic engine runaway not to mention an uncontrollable inferno in the DPF if so equipped.

[Tractorman]

39 minutes ago, 04Mach1 said:

My first thought reading through the post is an injector just pouring fuel down a cylinder and the fuel is bypassing the rings. If he is lucky the cylinder hasn't been washed out causing broken rings and cylinder scoring.

 

16 hours ago, Tractorman said:

Right away I noticed fuel coming out of the top of #5 injector solenoid. I realized then that the ball and set screw must be missing.

 

The source of the fuel leak was the missing ball and set screw in the injector solenoid.  That was fixed with a new ball and set screw.  The engine oil and filter has been changed.

 

39 minutes ago, 04Mach1 said:

This can be easily diagnosed by performing an "Idle Speed Balance Test" which will show misfiring and cylinder contribution. Next would be a "Cylinder Cutout Test" which will audibly identify the misfiring cylinder.

 

16 hours ago, Tractorman said:

A few minutes later I crank the starter for a longer period of time and the engine catches, but only on one cylinder and is detonating as if the timing was extremely advanced. I release the key and the engine continues to barely run in this manner. A few seconds later I turn off the key because none of the other cylinders are picking up. During the time the engine was running, heavy white smoke was coming out of the exhaust.

 

I cannot do any tests that require the engine to be running.  I don't believe any of the injectors are firing.  I think that one cylinder has a continuous fuel leak from an injector and when enough fuel collects in that cylinder, the engine ignites that fuel and causes the harsh detonation and the ability to barely idle with lots of white smoke.  To me it would make sense that a leaking injector could pull down the rail pressure enough so no injectors would fire.  Does anyone agree?  disagree? Am I crazy? 

 

If anyone agrees, than is there anything I can do to figure out which injector is leaking fuel?

 

The engine is a 5.9 - I am sorry about not making that clear.

 

- John

Edited December 24, 2018 by Tractorman

[Mopar1973Man]

You do not have the means to repair an common rail injector. You'll need to send that injector in as a core and just replace it. 

 

WARNING: If you do try to use a shade tree repaired injector you take the risk of melting down that piston. I highly suggest that injectors are replaced as a full set and not just one.

[Guest 04Mach1]

1 hour ago, Tractorman said:

 

 

The source of the fuel leak was the missing ball and set screw in the injector solenoid.  That was fixed with a new ball and set screw.  The engine oil and filter has been changed.

 

 

 

I cannot do any tests that require the engine to be running.  I don't believe any of the injectors are firing.  I think that one cylinder has a continuous fuel leak from an injector and when enough fuel collects in that cylinder, the engine ignites that fuel and causes the harsh detonation and the ability to barely idle with lots of white smoke.  To me it would make sense that a leaking injector could pull down the rail pressure enough so no injectors would fire.  Does anyone agree?  disagree? Am I crazy? 

 

If anyone agrees, than is there anything I can do to figure out which injector is leaking fuel?

 

The engine is a 5.9 - I am sorry about not making that clear.

 

- John

Without the diagnostic equipment required my best advice is a 6 pack of "Cummins" or "Bosch" injectors. You can also purchase these and they will help find bad injectors

https://www.amazon.com/AccurateDiesel-Cummins-Diesel-Injector-Block-Off/dp/B01A810K8M

 

Luckily it's a 5.9 so worst case scenario is a cylinder is washed and an engine rebuild with a minimal bore and oversized pistons will be part of the repair.

[Tractorman]

1 hour ago, 04Mach1 said:

Without the diagnostic equipment required my best advice is a 6 pack of "Cummins" or "Bosch" injectors. You can also purchase these and they will help find bad injectors

https://www.amazon.com/AccurateDiesel-Cummins-Diesel-Injector-Block-Off/dp/B01A810K8M

 

Thank you.  You are a star.  This is the answer I was looking for. This tool should help me find the correct failing injector.  I placed my original post on the TDR site as well, but the Mopar1973Man site wins!

 

I will be recommending to the owner to replace all injectors with new Bosch units.  But, for now at least he can start with replacing one or two as necessary to get the engine to run..

 

Thank you again,

 

- John

[Mopar1973Man]

Now I'm going to pass you over to https://smartysupport.com for a set of NEW BBi injectors for that truck. You'll have to talk to Brian and see what the prices are. They are currently still setting up the store and getting product vendors put together too. 

[AH64ID]

At 205K miles on CR injectors there is no real good reason to be rebuilding the injectors yourself in the truck. I don't think this is recommended by anyone. CR injectors, aside from R&R, are not a DIY thing. 

 

With the last set of codes he got it makes me think the wiring harness for the injectors has been damaged during all the work. 

 

With up to 26K psi of rail pressure I wouldn't be using hardware store parts on CR injectors, but I also wouldn't be rebuilding them myself :-) 

 

Pull all 6, and put 6 new ones in it. New, not reman. 

 

If the check gauges was driven by the oil pressure then he may be in for a rebuild anyways. There is only a 6 psi switch on that motor, so the pressure has to be below 6 psi for more than 30 seconds to get the check gauges to appear. Not sure how well the internals will like a lack of oil pressure thanks to fuel dilution, but probably not well! 

 

Hopefully you changed the oil, and I'd change it again after a couple minutes of running just to ensure all the fuel is out. At least 1qt of oil stays in the pan/head/etc when you drain it. 

 

 

What programmer has he been running?

Edited December 24, 2018 by AH64ID

[Tractorman]

53 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

At 205K miles on CR injectors there is no real good reason to be rebuilding the injectors yourself in the truck. I don't think this is recommended by anyone. CR injectors, aside from R&R, are not a DIY thing. 

 

I agree.  There was no work done on the injector itself - the truck owner just replaced the solenoid, unfortunately, incorrectly, as in he didn't swap the ball and set screw from the defective solenoid.  I have already recommended injector replacement with new Bosch units.

 

58 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

With the last set of codes he got it makes me think the wiring harness for the injectors has been damaged during all the work.

 

I did a resistance check for the harness under the valve cover, but not the whole wiring harness from the ECM.  I will do that, that way the connectors will be included.

 

1 hour ago, AH64ID said:

With up to 26K psi of rail pressure I wouldn't be using hardware store parts on CR injectors, but I also wouldn't be rebuilding them myself :-) 

 

I would agree if the parts were exchanged in the high pressure part of the injector, however, they were in installed in the injector solenoid - this part only sees return line pressure.  The ball and set screw were a perfect match.  I am quite confident that this has corrected the fuel dilution problem since I witnessed the fuel coming out of the top of the solenoid while the engine was running before and without the ball and set screw installed.

 

I think that there are two issues with this truck:

 

  *  First issue:  Cylinder #5 solenoid was defective (the codes and follow up resistance checks confirmed that)  The owner installed a new Bosch solenoid, but without the ball and set screw in place.  The engine cranked but did not start after the repairs.  The next day the owner hooked up jumper cables and primed the fuel system with the bump start method and the engine fired right away and ran smoothly.  Of course it was pouring return fuel out of the top of the solenoid, but the owner did not know that.  The truck was driven a couple of days around town for about 15 miles.  At this point the owner informed me of the high and diluted engine oil level.  I instructed to not start the truck and I went to his house.  This is when I witnessed the fuel coming from the top on the #5 injector solenoid.  So, I corrected this problem and the engine has not started and ran smoothly since, but I know the fuel leak has been corrected.

 

    *  Second issue:   I have been puzzled as to why the engine didn't start and run right away after the #5 injector solenoid was replaced (without the ball and set screw).  And when it did start the next day, why did it start many times and operate smoothly for the next 15 miles even though fuel was unknowingly leaking out of the top of the solenoid? 

 

And now with the missing ball and set screw put back into the injector solenoid, the engine does not even fire at all.  Then after several cranking intervals the engine does attempt to start and barely run and you can tell that only one cylinder is trying to carry the whole load, and that cylinder is detonating as if it has extremely advanced timing, meanwhile heavy white smoke is coming out of the tailpipe.  This is where I am thinking that there has always been an injector leaking fuel into a cylinder, even before the original problem occurred.  My thoughts are that one leaking injector is pulling down rail pressure so no injectors will fire.  Then after several cranking attempts, enough fuel is collected in the cylinder with the leaking injector and that cylinder fires prematurely and attempts to run the engine on its own (not with injected fuel, but leaking fuel).  Just my theory.  I will get the tool 04Mach1 recommends and I will get a tool to read rail pressure to see if I can find out which is the problem injector.

 

The engine oil and filter has been changed and the truck has not been started yet.  When we do get it to start, the oil and filter will be changed again within a few minutes.

 

The name of the programmer is Ag Diesel Solutions model 20100, not familiar with that programmer.  It is currently disconnected.

 

Thank you very much for your detailed response.  Your information is greatly appreciated as well as others.

 

- John

 

[AH64ID]

1 hour ago, Tractorman said:

 

I did a resistance check for the harness under the valve cover, but not the whole wiring harness from the ECM.  I will do that, that way the connectors will be included.

 

Probably a great idea. 

1 hour ago, Tractorman said:

*  Second issue:   I have been puzzled as to why the engine didn't start and run right away after the #5 injector solenoid was replaced (without the ball and set screw).  And when it did start the next day, why did it start many times and operate smoothly for the next 15 miles even though fuel was unknowingly leaking out of the top of the solenoid? 

 

Likely a combo of low batteries and air in the system, both of which he alleviated the day it finally fired. 

 

In the winter batteries will be low enough to cause issues in as little as 10 days, if not sooner on weak batteries. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Tractorman said:

 

And now with the missing ball and set screw put back into the injector solenoid, the engine does not even fire at all.  Then after several cranking intervals the engine does attempt to start and barely run and you can tell that only one cylinder is trying to carry the whole load, and that cylinder is detonating as if it has extremely advanced timing, meanwhile heavy white smoke is coming out of the tailpipe.  This is where I am thinking that there has always been an injector leaking fuel into a cylinder, even before the original problem occurred.  My thoughts are that one leaking injector is pulling down rail pressure so no injectors will fire.  Then after several cranking attempts, enough fuel is collected in the cylinder with the leaking injector and that cylinder fires prematurely and attempts to run the engine on its own (not with injected fuel, but leaking fuel).  Just my theory.  I will get the tool 04Mach1 recommends and I will get a tool to read rail pressure to see if I can find out which is the problem injector.

 

The P0201-P0206 are likely why it will not fire. Figure out what's going on there and you'll likely fire. Bad harness? Bad ground? Bad connection? The 06-07 have the harness incorportated into the valve cover gasket right? It's not hard to damage. 

 

1 hour ago, Tractorman said:

 

The engine oil and filter has been changed and the truck has not been started yet.  When we do get it to start, the oil and filter will be changed again within a few minutes.

Good, hopefully it's not damaged. 

 

1 hour ago, Tractorman said:

The name of the programmer is Ag Diesel Solutions model 20100, not familiar with that programmer.  It is currently disconnected.

 

That is a boost and rail pressure fooler... My 0.02, don't hook it back up. Rail pressure foolers are hard on injectors. 

 

 

[Tractorman]

21 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

That is a boost and rail pressure fooler... My 0.02, don't hook it back up. Rail pressure foolers are hard on injectors.

 

I will recommend to the owner to not use the programmer. 

 

Again, thank you for the detailed information, you have been most helpful.

 

- John

[Mopar1973Man]

At any point being the #5 injector has been tampered with, you need to just replace all injectors. DO NOT start the engine with that #5 injector installed you are asking for engine damage. The solenoid is a tuned piece on the injector and can't just replace it with any solenoid and just screw it on. There is a calibration process for that solenoid. 

 

Common Rail Injectors are NOT a serviceable part.

 

Being one injector is damaged just replace them all. Being the other 5 injectors are shortly behind the damaged one. 

[Tractorman]

Understood.  Thank you.

 

- John

[Tractorman]

Just wanted to follow up on this topic.  I was able to use a Smarty Touch programmer to read actual fuel rail pressure and the truck owner purchased the block-off tool. 

 

With all six injector fuel lines connected, the rail pressure maintained about 900 psi while cranking.  With cylinder #1 injector line removed and rail plugged, fuel pressure immediately responded to above 5,000 psi and engine started and continued running on the five remaining cylinders.  Fuel pressure remained steady at just above 6,000 psi at idle and responded as commanded under acceleration.

 

Engine oil and filter have been changed twice since fuel dilution problem.   Number one cylinder injector has been replaced with a new Bosch injector and the truck is running normal with normal rail pressure readings.  A lengthy test drive was performed and power is normal and smooth.  There appears to be no smoke or engine blow-by or unusual engine noises.  The truck owner will monitor the engine oil for fuel dilution, oil consumption, blow-by, and performance for the next few weeks. If all is well, he will be installing five more new Bosch injectors.

 

I thank all for your assistance and I especially thank @AH64ID and @04Mach1 for their very specific advice that led to a productive conclusion.

 

- John

[Guest 04Mach1]

Your welcome. I am glad I could help. I'm pretty knowledgeable with CR engines (even the 6.4 and 6.7 Powerstroke and most Duramax engines) if any questions need answered.