MM3 ECM flash with Edge Comp box

[3jks05]

Just got my 02 back from an extensive build from a local shop. The more I read about stacking, the dumber I seem to feel. The guy that writes the MM3 tunes for my shop recommended flashing the ecm with the mm3 tunes, and then putting in an Edge comp box through the data link to be able to "full field" the injection pump. Set up in this way, do these two work together? If they do, how can I set things up (things meaning wires lol) so that I can adjust both on the fly? Currently the edge is adjustable on the fly but to change levels with the mm3 I was told I would have to disconnect the edge and use the data link, then reconnect the edge when done. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Me78569]

I dont understand the point of stacking the edge on mm3.  You paid a pretty penny for your mm3 custom tune, why would you want to throw that out the window and run the edge tune on top?

 

Both boxes need the datalink.  

 

Honestly i would run one or the other not both.  Stacking is something that was done 5-10 years ago, not now.  

 

What you want is possible if you run splitter wires on the datalink, but again i dont understand the point.

 

You paid for mm3 use it, ditch the edge.

 

[3jks05]

Yeah I was a little thrown off by that too. The way the mechanic explained it was that the mm3 tune writer said it needed the comp box to "full field" the pump. It's an industrial injection hot rod vp and he did the wire tap as well. I guess where I got lost is when he said they work together because the mm3 tune was flashed into the ecm and then the comp box just adds to that. Idk, total bullshit orrrr?

[Me78569]

It's utter bull.

 

The mm3 writes a custom tune to the ecm then the ecm outputs the fueling and timing command to the vp44.   Now the edge intercepts that signal, changes it and resends it to the vp to increase fueling and timing.   It does also do wiretap fueling by tapping the pump and commanding the fueling solenoid directly.  

 

So you have the expensive custom tune from the mm3 being changed by the edge's internal maps and configuration.   It's just dumb.  

 

 

Don't stack these tuners.   the only thing you should stack a mm3 with is a tst comp.  

 

To go a big deeper into this, the edge is doing boost fooling, which means it limits the boost reading the ecm see's to a max of ~14 psi.   This means your expensive mm3 tune is not even able to use the full map as your max boost reading the ecm see's is 14 psi.    

 

It's a terrible configuration.  Whats the point of a custom tune if you are just going to change that custom tune using the edge?    Whats the point of a custom tune if you are just going to limit your fueling maps between 0-14 psi?  

 

 

 

 

This article covers stacking tuners.

 

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Me78569

[3jks05]

Wow thank you so so much for your time and help thus far!! Would this set up partially explain why the truck seems to hunt or stutter when flatland cruising around 2000 rpm regardless of TP or speed? Even if I'm rolling through a parking lot in say 2nd gear, it seems like when ever there is extremely low to no load (although this doesn't happen at idle) it is acting like it doesn't know what to do with fueling. Also when I'm around 1800rpm and step into it, right around 2000 it kind of bucks and/or stutters sort of like what you would see with water methanol quenching.

[Me78569]

remove the edge and get the truck running well with only the mm3.  You paid for a custom tune you should get a good tune.....

[3jks05]

If the mm3 tune "writer" is who suggested this hocus pocus in the first place, I suppose the next reasonable question to ask is who's a good mm3 tuner?

[Me78569]

Don't know,    However if you paid for it I would get your money worth  Tell the tuner you dont want to stack the edge and to make the truck run well without it.

 

Mm3 isn't widely used enough on the vp's for me to have a recommendation.   

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Me78569

[3jks05]

The tuner that wrote the tunes (that I'm not using I guess) is a lead tuner at Motor Ops in Canada.

From what I can tell they seem reputable but I don't understand why he would suggest this. Also, just so I know stuff about things when I go to the shop tomorrow. What is he referring to when he says "full field" the pump?

[Me78569]

have you removed the edge yet and just ran the mm3 alone?  

[3jks05]

No. I've only had the truck back for 3 days now while I run high zinc oil to break everything in (crank is the only stock/original part from 6 months ago when I took it in). I'm taking it in tomorrow to change to Amsoil and give my driving notes for tune adjustments. But given this conversation my notes mean nothing because I haven't been running the mm3 tune.

I know how to switch the data link from the edge to the mm3 but don't want to do so because I don't want the tuner to be able to say that I touched it and that's why things aren't right if that makes sense. I've got 50k wrapped up in this so I'm trying to be cautious. 

[Me78569]

Just understand that the mm3 tune is the "base" however the edge is editing that tune based on the internal maps of the edge. 

 

You are using the mm3 tune, but the edge is altering the commands to the vp44.  You can't really know what part is the edge and what part is the mm3.  Neither does the tuner, unless they somehow have the edge maps to reference.  Which is doubtful. 

 

I just want you to be educated about what is going on.     Think of it this way, the mm3 tune is outputting fueling and timing commands to the vp44, the edge is intercepting those commands and adding to them by a factor that is dynamic based upon the maps.  

 

IE the mm3 tune might be calling for %50 duration ,but the edge says it should add %10 on top so your total output is %60.   

 

Just keep in mind that things like RPM, load, boost can all change the location in the map of not only the ecm tune, but the edge tune.  It is impossible for the tuner to say "  I understand what the edge is going to do so I make my mm3 tune work with it"    

 

I am sure that is what they are going to say.  

 

Main point doesn't change, though if you have a custom tune why do you need the edge?  Wiretap is great, but not worth it if it means you are altering the custom tune you paid for.

 

There is no way to tune the edge into a wiretap only tuner.

[3jks05]

Wow thank you for the info! I can't tell you how helpful this is and I'm very grateful for your time! So basically I need my shop to ask this guy at Motor Ops if he has access to the Edge maps, if he says no, then take out the edge and demand the custom tuning I paid for? If he says yes, then go ahead with the tuning adjustments?

[Me78569]

They don't have the edge maps, I was just making a point.    Edge isnt going to send their maps out, that's their secret sauce.  

 

I dont know what mods you have but if I was you at this point I would remove the edge, drive the truck with just the mm3 tuning alone.  If you are unhappy with how the truck drives then have the tuning changed.  

 

If you are unhappy with the power then bigger injectors are in order.  

 

Stacking the edge on top of the mm3 is just not a good idea.  You might as well just run the edge solo.  

[3jks05]

In terms of fueling it has Scheid 125hp flow matched injectors (complete units, not just nozzles), Scheid oversized injection lines (can't remember the size but it was the smallest step up) and the industrial injection hotrod vp44 injection pump.

[Me78569]

Turbo?

[3jks05]

On the air side of things. The head was completely worked over by Scheid, a stage 3 colt cams camshaft, and scheid bored it 20 over. The turbo is a fleece cheetah, feeding a mishimoto intercooler, through a pusher cross air intake (to which a snow performance mpg max kit is plumbed). It exits through a BD manifold, into the turbo, and out a 4" exhaust all the way out (no cat or muffler). Everything comes in through an S&B intake.

40 psi is no problem but is limited to that via Watergate. Head studs, fire ringed, etc. 

Wastegate*

[Me78569]

What size turbo?  125's are really not that big for most aftermarket turbos.  

 

Generally speaking  7 x .010's ( 150 hp) injectors are about the smallest you would go with a ~62mm turbo and 7 x .011's when you setup up to a 64 ish turbo. 

 

Sounds like  alot of $$ was put into this.  

[3jks05]

Flexalite 252 cooling fan, 55gpm 12vdc coolant pump, fleece coolant bypass kit. New Cummins OEM oil pump, new optima red tops, fass lift pump with 1/2" lines etc etc

About 50 grand

Did a lot to the suspension and chassis, nv5600 and rest of the drivetrain. It was a comprehensive build. Now I just want the damn thing to run right lol

[Me78569]

What size turbo?  

 

Yea if you paid $50,000 I would ensure you get a good tune.