Make the 2nd gen drive like a car!

[totally lost]

Ohh boy i started a can of worms with this title. But to me i have finally accidentally made my truck drive better to me then some newer cars feel to me. Personal opinion i guess. But non the less i think it is pretty good and i would rather drive it then the recent new cars i have drove. I can literally lay my wrist on the steering wheel and drive down the rough uneven dished roads we have around here without any problem or feel like i need to grip the steering wheel. I hope i can help someone else with what i have learned.

This was done on a 94-99 truck. For 2000+ trucks instead of bushings you will probably need offset ball joints or maybe someone makes a adjustable ball joint??? There is bound to be a way.

First the truck is a 1995 dodge ram 2500 12v with a service body full of tools and a lift gate.  Pretty darn heavy.  Sitting on 265/75-16 Pro Comp extreme MT tires and stock wheels. No lift! Has been converted to the 99 HD tie rods. You know the T style. I have been converting to this for over a decade before every one found out the 3rd gen T style. Either way you need the T style setup how ever you get it. For now there is no steering dampener! You shouldn't need it for a properly driving truck! But i still plan to add one. Also you will need the steering gear sector shaft brace! Lastly i still have a OEM steering gear! Actually i went back to the OEM one from a 250,000 mile parts truck. What i have found is most any rebuilt steering gear is worthless. They either have more slop then the old one, they leak in a short time or they just plain was not rebuilt properly. If yours leaks put seals in yourself! You don't need a rebuilt one over a leak! I have also tried a few aftermarket brand new "upgraded" steering gears with no luck. They throw off the geometry and you gain bumps steer. I guess that could be fixed that is up to you. But in my situation best was a properly adjusted OEM steering gear that has not been touched by a rebuild place. Thats all for the truck.

Leading up to making this truck drive so good.
Long story but the short version is fighting with some tires and some bad alignment jobs from alignment shops i got pretty mad and decided i was going to do it myself! Especially when alignment shops leave ball joints loose! Now being raging mad i did lots of searching and finding lots of specs mostly close to Thurans fabrications specs. Then i searched all kinds of vehicle specs from race cars to class 8 trucks, motor homes, even checked out fords specs being they used the same front end. One thing i noticed is the dodge and ford guys say it is all in the caster and you need more while motor homes wanted less due to wind pushing them around! I also noticed fords had a much tighter alignment spec then dodge. One of them being CAMBER! Camber on a dodge? Not even Thuren says anything about camber! I never found a camber spec just searching the net for a dodge. Most things i read say it is not adjustable on a dodge or that you must bend things. NOPE! WRONG!  Camber is adjustable! Also i have drove plenty of fords many drove pretty good why can't a dodge drive that good with the same axle? So after all this i came up with a plan to make it drive at least as good as a ford!

Condition of your parts!
Everything must be in good shape as in no slop, steering gear adjusted properly, steering shaft in good shape, and the ball joints must not be bound up! This is a must! As i found out just fallowing instructions is not good enough even moogs. Your best bet here i think is get EMF ball joints and he has a great video showing how easy the ball joints should move. this is a MUST! Heres the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=217&v=us0z3s_VYKQ&feature=emb_logo I have moog ball joints which i have found to be very stiff on there own so this affects it some. Lucky me i have around 40,000 miles on mine so they are not as stiff as new and new ones will be to stiff even after doing everything right! So if you are using moog or any ball joint that is pretty stiff you may not get the results i got till they are well broke in. But you must at all cost make the knuckle turn as easy as it can which might mean doing even more banging on things if they are not EMF ball joints. You still need to use your ball joint manufacture torque specs tho not EMFs unless you have EMF ball joints. I had to do a lot of hammering to get these moogs to not bind up at all! Even with 0 binding they will not become as easy to move as EMFs ball joints. They are simply built with to much friction.

Tools you need.
A set of good turn plates that shows the degrees! A caster camber gauge. I used a small magnetic one you stick on the hub. I happen to have one that is to small to fit the dodge hub so i took a chunk of 3/8" steel to the local machine shop and had him make it fit the dodge hub and the caster camber gauge then installed more magnets. I will upload some pics of it later. A tape measure that is in good shape! Lastly a helper.  I wouldn't use any caster camber gauge that mounts on the rim. Rims are not very true at all so the machined part of the hub is much better. You may need to get some off set ball joint bushings and or get 2 adjustable bushings like moog #k80108. Here are the instructions for using it to set Caster AND Camber. Give you a idea how it works. https://www.catalograck.com/ImgVD/PRD/44-5032ins_1-up_18571.pdf

HOW I DID IT!
I first parked the truck on the turn plates and setup my caster camber gauge. Make sure the tire you are checking first is perfectly lined up with the rear! Use a string line if need be. If your toe is off you may need to turn each side separately to get your reading. Take the readings and write them down for both sides. You will need a buddy to turn the wheel during the caster check while you watch the turn table gauge for how far your caster camber gauge tells you to go. Make sure you read and understand your caster camber gauge instructions perfectly! I then lifted the truck and pulled the wheels off to see the top ball joint bushings. Pull them out! Make sure you know which one goes where and the orientation!  If you have anything but a 0* you must note the orientation! Now pick a side that looks easy to get camber moved into spec. Mine was the right side as i was only a 1/2* off on camber from my spec with a 0* bushing and i happen to have a 1/2* ball joint bushing the alignment shop removed. Caster is less important for now but in the direction of caster you should be ok with no change from a 0* caster that will be left for the other side but you still need to know the reading! If you did not have a 0* bushing in there you will have to do some math to figure out where a 0* caster change would of been with a 0* bushing and put it back to 0* change from the AXLE! If you can't figure this part out just get your self a couple 0* bushings install and start over! Me trying to explain the math would be pretty long. As i said in my case i was only 1/2* off on camber so i orientated the bushing to only change camber. Yours maybe off 3/4* you just use a 3/4* bushing and install to only change camber. WAIT DID I JUST TELL YOU HOW TO CHANGE CAMBER ON A DODGE??? Told you it can be done. Ok now check your work on that side. Yes that means putting both sides back together put wheels on make sure the side you just changed is strait with the rear again then set back down on the turn plates. Take a camber and caster reading! Is camber within my specs below? yes go on if no calculate your change still needed and get it there. You must be very PICKY! Make sure you write down the cater and camber readings. The caster number is not a worry yet you just need to know it. Now after you get the first side camber set here comes the hard long drug out part. The 2nd side. I bought one of moogs adjustable ball joint bushings part # K80108. You may need one of these for the first side if you are in between a * but i didn't need it. Trick here is you can turn the bushings just a bit to help you out. Not a full setting over but just using the slop the bushings have. Now you simply make the 2nd side match the first side yeah that wont be simple trust me. If you started with a 0* bushing simply use the chart given with the moog adjustable bushing to make the 2nd side caster and camber match the first side you did based off the numbers you wrote down from the first side. Simple? seems like it but reality is you don't always get the change the chart says. So you will have to install put wheel back on, straiten tire with the rear, set it back down on the turn plates take a reading then adjust again. I did this over and over till i finally got caster and camber the same as the first side. Again the slop in the cogs may help you with the very minor changes. The last few times i didn't need a full 1/4* or even 1/16* of a degree so i could turn the hole bushing watching the movement of the knuckle and seen if it would help. If so id set it there and take another reading. This will be a royal pain to get 2 directions just right! Keep trying eventually you will get there. This took me a few hours before hitting the sweet spot! I have turned wrenches for a lot of years but this will be time consuming! It may take you a day or 2 before you get it but it is worth it i think. Now after you get both sides done you need to pull off your tie rods and make sure your knuckles move as free as they possibly can! Remember moog are tight anyways but don't just write that off make sure the knuckle moves as free as it can. Again this is a MUST!

Time to set toe! Now get your buddy to hold a tape perfectly in the same spot on your tire every time. Find a spot that makes it easy to repeat. Mark it! You must be perfect here! Just the thickness of a line on that tape is to far off so be VERY PICKY! Then simply jack up the vehicle measure across from tire to tire then turn the tire around the back side and check with the very same marks! This will take out any wheel run out you may have. Remember it must be PERFECT!

Lastly caster! You matched them side to side now it is time for total caster! On the turn plates i ended up at 5 1/4* since the turn plates lifted my front wheels. In reality i know from previous readings on a flat floor it is around 4* caster. This you can adjust with your pinion angle eccentrics. Most believe it is the caster adjustment and even thuren states that. Well yes use it to swing caster to where you want. Probably near 4*. less if you want lighter steering more if you want more stability! Want light steering and stability? Search up on this forum for the power steering pump flow control valve mod. You can make lighter steering by simply adding more power steering flow. NOT PRESSURE only flow. Watch your pinion angle tho. If for some odd reason you can't get enough total caster without having drive shaft problems you can use the bushing to gain more caster or offset ball joints on the newer trucks. This is what the alignment shops actually use to adjust your caster anyways. Now adjusting these eccentrics don't just turn them evenly with the lines you could bind things up. Most not but in my trucks case to keep both eccentrics carrying the same load one is pointing up while the other is pointing forward!  Now this seems bad but i know this truck had hit something hard at one time so it is no surprise to me one side is different by a lot making up for what ever is bent. Each eccentric should carry the same load. I did this by feel and watching my control arm bushings. If i had put both of mine pointing in the same direction one side was twisting forward and the other was twisting backward. Not good!

 If you take this to a alignment shop they will likely charge you a lot more then a flat rate or tell you no lol But hey ford specs are as close as .25* where dodges are all over! the key here is to be perfect as can be! And i bet the camber is a big part of it as even having cross caster and toe set to Thurens specs i did not like. But they don't factor in camber at all! Camber being set close with cross caster and toe really made a difference in my experience. The thing likes going strait! Also Thuren states at the bottom "IMPORTANT: Especially regarding the 2003+ years, cross-caster is welded into the axle. With the cams close to in phase,do not worry about up to .75* more caster on the passenger side. This is permanent, normal, and can not be adjusted out." Well that is simply not true! Cross caster which is the caster from one side being different by up to .75 CAN be adjusted out with the ball joint bushings! Or in case of the newer trucks then 1998 can be done with offset ball joints. Or maybe someone makes adjustable ball joints??? In my experience i had .75 cross caster on this very truck and with camber being off another 1/2* fighting all that cross caster it drove strait on a nice flat road but ones you hit roads that are rough uneven and or dished it made the truck get really awkward handling. Caster and camber effects are different with different amounts of weight. So a road that is changing the weight on one side only at a time makes it feel very awkward and makes you need to grip the steering wheel. I believe the folks at Thuren are probably great people and want to do there best but they must not have figured out cross caster and camber really are adjustable. But who knows they probably live where the roads are not total crap so they have no reason to dig any deeper. I would also assume there test trucks do not carry the extra weight mine does which only amplifies imperfections. I could see a empty truck with such specs would seem pretty good on good roads. I want mine to drive good on bad roads while being over weight   I also found in all my messing around a cross caster as little as .2 and a cross camber reading of .2  will make a heck of a pull when working together. That means the less caster on left and the higher camber on the left will pull left pretty hard even with the road crown. So you want the best be more precise! .75 is a long ways off to me.

Thuren also states  "2000-2002 year trucks can upgrade to the 2009-2013 OEM Mopar steering.1994-1999 can not as the pin tapers are off spec.1994-1997....All trucks had Y-linkage steering from the factory, so you must have aftermarket continuous tie rod steering to use these specs, for those years. If you have Y-steering, use OEM specs." Again this is wrong 1999 had a HD steering setup just like the 2009-2013 has just with the right taper for the 94-99 trucks. So you just buy OEM tie rods and drag link for a 1999 with the HD steering. Heres the link to read yourself. https://www.thurenfabrication.com/media/wysiwyg/THUREN_FAB_ALIGNMENT.pdf Again i have nothing against Thuren. I just learned they are not 100% right either. Nether am I.

Ok finally the specs them selves!

CAMBER     0* to  -.1*   Yes it must be that close and not on the positive side! If one must be higher make it driver side to fight road crown.
Caster         4*  give or take driver preference! search steering pump flow control valve to make the steering easier again.
Cross Caster .08* at most! unless you want to fight the road crown then do as you feel you like! Vehicle will pull to the side with less caster.
Total toe .05* at the most!
Thrust angle .01 at the most!

Extra important notes.
The more caster you use the more wear! Bigger tires will be more wear. Use good parts and you will probably be ok. If I didn't already have good moog ball joints i would of bought EMF ball joints hands down now that i know how much ball joint stiffness makes these trucks wander.

Lastly Sorry for any spelling or grammar errors. That is not what i am good at. However i think i am somewhat good at fixing things as i do it for a living. Seems like a good trade off to me? If you want to help me out and make a corrected copy of my post and send it to me i would really appreciate it and edit this one so it is easier to read.

 

[dripley]

Still trying to figure out how to adjust the camber. That is without buying the weird off set ball joints l have heard so many bad things about. Please enlighten me.

[totally lost]

1 hour ago, dripley said:

Still trying to figure out how to adjust the camber. That is without buying the weird off set ball joints l have heard so many bad things about. Please enlighten me.

94 to 99 use these factory. So does fords with the dana 60 well into the 2000s up to the F550s. https://www.google.com/search?q=dodge+caster+camber+bushing&client=firefox-b-1-d&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjarrv5g9brAhV7Ap0JHTUFDygQ_AUoAnoECA4QBA&biw=1333&bih=632

EDIT: So you see how it is a hole different setup. Maybe it works better for these adjustments. If i ever have to replace ball joints in our 2000 dodge i will see what can be done and add what i figure out on this thread. Lack of experience doing this to the newer trucks make it hard. But clearly a offset ball joint will do the same as the older bushings do. If they are good or not is another story.

Now i did this with a older truck so i don't have personal experience with the newer ones. I know offsets are made for them because EMF makes them but i don't know how well they work. Maybe one company makes a better one then another does as well. Based on research alone i wouldn't think EMF would put out junk. But again that is not experience. I know many companies do put out junk tho so maybe most the bad ones are from a company that makes low quality parts?? IDK just spit balling here. Also in my research i had read some talk about some alignment shops actually bending the axles into spec. Probably ones that specialize in collision repair??


And a 2nd EDIT: lol Back in the kinpin days some was adjustable some you just bent the axle. My father use to work on class 8 trucks and you just bend them into place. I personally have never seen it done tho. Before i was born haha Maybe start swapping to the older axles from 12v trucks? lol kidding kidding. There must be a way.

Edited September 7, 2020 by totally lost

[dripley]

Well I have seen the off set ball joints just never anything good about them. And the EMF ball joints at over 500 bucks is a bit steep to experiment for me. My current ones cost less than $200 and still going. Mine will drive with one hand or wrist on a decent road but as long as younarw paying attention. I do have some play I figure ftom the steering box that has 510k on it. I have run out of sdjustments on it and it us about time to replace it. Now the T steering I will most likely try when the MOOG parts start wearing out.

Dont let my nay saying stop you from your quest, I wish you the best a hope you can show us a new and economical 'way to accomplish this.

 

[totally lost]

2 minutes ago, dripley said:

Well I have seen the off set ball joints just never anything good about them. And the EMF ball joints at over 500 bucks is a bit steep to experiment for me. My current ones cost less than $200 and still going. Mine will drive with one hand or wrist on a decent road but as long as younarw paying attention. I do have some play I figure ftom the steering box that has 510k on it. I have run out of sdjustments on it and it us about time to replace it. Now the T steering I will most likely try when the MOOG parts start wearing out.

Dont let my nay saying stop you from your quest, I wish you the best a hope you can show us a new and economical 'way to accomplish this.

 

See this is where me and most others differ. I have no problem spending what ever it takes to make things right. I know in the long run it will be cheaper. While many others refuse to spend much to make things right they will spend all kinds of money on cool looking things. Like lights or big fat tires lifts stereos and so on. I remember a customer who refused to put plugs and wires in his truck while it is missing so he could afford lights that shine down on his feet while driving lol All cool lights that light up while the truck sounds like crap lol It was just a few weeks ago i had a guy want me to fix his radio and AC before fixing his brakes! His brakes was shot beyond shot! Not a good caliper on it not a good rotor on it all pads was metal to metal or worse riding on the caliper itself! So to me spending $2000 to make a vehicle drive right is more then worth it. I don't think a truck looks cool driving all over no matter how pretty it is. The old mechanic saying "pay me now or pay me more later" cheaping out on things is never the cheapest way. And that old saying will be posted in the office of my new shop once it is finished.

However in my quest to make a truck that drove decent with everything shot not drive worse after lots of parts it needed did not actually cost me that much. Seriously it seemed every lose part that got replaced the truck drove worse! lol This is what started the quest. Then trying to find a alignment shop that didn't make it worse then i did cost me more then what it actually took to correct it. I spent i think $100 or so on the caster camber gauge. $100 on a custom made adapter which i guess you can buy one cheaper lol The turn plates was under $100. Then for this truck it has them bushings so i bought 1 adjustable one at $32. And i spent about half a day messing with it. On the other hand alignment shops had taken a couple days of my time burned the living piss out of my $1600 clutch lost my center cap left the ball joint lose which in my case would ruin the axle not the knuckle like the newer ones and charged me hundreds of dollars. I say my way was cheaper with my older truck. Especially if my clutch now kills over soon. It may be a dual disk ceramic but it was not designed to be slipped on for blocks at a time.

So maybe it wouldn't be cheap for 99+ year trucks but the older ones shouldn't be to costly even if you just found a good alignment shop willing to make it so perfect and paid them. I was just reading a thread of a guy having problems with a 2003 and found a frame shop that put his into place for a bit over $100. Not as close as my specs but within .2. Which would be better then most.

I guess i didn't take anything you said as nay. My quest with this year of truck is over. I already figured it out. It will be the 24v some day. We have 5 of these 94 to 99 trucks and 1 2000. The one truck that came factory with the T style steering has always been a good driving truck and has always been the benchmark of how one should drive.  Well not any more. It has over 300k on it still running factory ball joints and wheel bearings. Only 1 set of tie rods.  We have another sitting at 580k thats pretty lose and still don't drive to bad. But this 95 I know hit something as i removed many bent parts the frame where the steering box mounts is still twisted i didn't fix that but it got flat out scary to drive once all the bent and wore out parts was gone then some mud tires and a service body on it. I am sure the mud tires and the extra weight amplified its problems. Now it is the best driving truck any of us own lol I did a brake job the other day on a newer car and on the test drive it drove just like most newer cars do. I thought man if only my truck could drive that good and was tempted to buy a chevy then swap the cummins motor and dodge cab on the chevy chassis lol That thought is gone now as i like the way this truck drives better then that car now.
 

[totally lost]

More on the flow control valve in the power steering pump i mentioned. I first found it here on this site but now for the life of me i can't find it again. I found several other mostly in the GM world and now that is all i can find lol Im sorry to the guy that did the write up on this forum. If you see this please post your link. For now here is one done with a GM vehicle. Pump is basically the same along with the valve. http://www.gmtruckcentral.com/articles/2013/powersteeringmods/ I think i went further drilling out the middle hole then shown here. There is a hole towards the end there that the fella on this forum drilled out to which helped a lot with idle power as well. I just drilled it the same as the one already there. 5th pic down from the top where it shows the drill bit in it drilling. The hole closest to the top of the pic. Be careful how far you drill out that center hole. You go to far you will not find a OEM dodge one. You will mostly likely have to find a chevy one and drill it to dodge specs if it was not already to that size. I am pretty sure this one will fit but may need drilled to be stock for a dodge. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MTDAFM5/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1&pldnSite=1  So better yet buy this one and save your factory one. Drill the one you can buy more of. 

Great you could of found all this but the part i never found was once you do this especially to the point i went you will have to loosen a properly tighten steering gear. If you don't it will get a bit twitchy. You must have a tiny bit of play with the engine running. If you can feel good you can feel when you are actually moving the steering gear valve. If you already had some play this will actually make it feel tighter. Don't ask me how but that is my experience on a couple different steering gears even a 3rd gen 6 bolt upgrade gear. I even put a stock flow valve back in and the steering got loser again. You can get pinky finger steering if you go far enough!  Reminds me of my old vehicles from the 60s and 70s. They steered so easy! I miss them days.  Either way here is another tip.

[That Guy]

The american public at large isn't a fan of pinky steering anymore.... Same with the "boulevard ride". It's not the 1950's anymore. Personally, I love driving sensory deprivation tanks with pinky steering, no road feel, armchairs for seats, proper slush-o-matics, and no outside noise. The days of proper land barge engineering ended when Ford decided to install sway bars (sway bars are the enemy of smooth ride) on the Lincoln Town Car in 1995. 

 

I have a set of EMF's in the box waiting to be installed once the weather cools off. I'll do a little writeup or something if they are worth it. Carli, $800 will need a bit more convincing than that they don't wear appreciably. 

[totally lost]

9 hours ago, That Guy said:

The american public at large isn't a fan of pinky steering anymore.... Same with the "boulevard ride". It's not the 1950's anymore. Personally, I love driving sensory deprivation tanks with pinky steering, no road feel, armchairs for seats, proper slush-o-matics, and no outside noise. The days of proper land barge engineering ended when Ford decided to install sway bars (sway bars are the enemy of smooth ride) on the Lincoln Town Car in 1995. 

 

I have a set of EMF's in the box waiting to be installed once the weather cools off. I'll do a little writeup or something if they are worth it. Carli, $800 will need a bit more convincing than that they don't wear appreciably. 

I don't know about no road feel you just had to have a finer feel is all. Ever run heavy equipment? How does a guy in a large excavator feel a piece of wire deep in the dirt? They have pilot controls so you don't even have a direct connection to the hydraulics actually doing the work. Now this drive by wire that is the true no feeling of anything and only half control of it haha I remember the first time i drove a newer vehicle with all this "road feel" i wondered why in the word would anyone want to have the steering wheel yanking around on them all the time? It drove me nuts! I don't know maybe people have got so lazy they need there steering wheel to give them a workout just so they do any kind of actual work out? Otherwise there arms might get to fat to steer with. lmfao!

I gave a woman a ride in my old 80s car once and she was a woman that had never rode in a car that old. She was totally blown away how nice a 80s car rode compared to all the new vehicles she had always rode in. She went on about it for over a hour! Yeah you are right this is not the 1950s and the only real unmodified experience with such a old vehicle i had was a 1950 2 1/2 ton truck. Yeah it didn't ride nice haha What i think is so funny is everyone thinks vehicles are more modern when in reality many things that are now "new" is very old. Road feel was back in the day of manual steering! That was true road feel to the point no new vehicle can match yet. What is sad is a 1965 dump truck steered easier with manual steering then most new vehicles haha Only while moving tho clearly but still better road feel. Push button start? 1912. Push button tranny Chrysler did that in 1954. Electric car first made in 1890. Slush O matic huh? lock up torque converter 1949.  Air ride chevy in 1957. bucket seats 1963. Gas engine fuel injection 1954. Diesel engines has always been injected far as i know developed in 1800s. Tell me again how we are out of the past?   Now the new thing is drive by wire and electric power steering. That is road feel to people? Throttle delay and choppy sensors helping you steer? IDK I'm not with that. Even the electric motors running the steering must cog over. Hydraulics under pressure with a accumulator completely smooth. No cog feeling.

But to each there own. I think people have just lost there connection with things. It is hard to find anyone with any real skills anymore and if you do they are older about to retire. Just look at the art world literal trash is now art lmfao! But thats my opinion and maybe why i am willing to spend the time and money to make old crap more precises then any newer vehicle is sitting on the dealer lot. If i own it and i am going to fix something myself it better be the best it can be or it is not good enough! I don't drive old crap because i "have" to i drive them because i like them and they cost less overall in the end. I could go pay cash for a brand new truck tomorrow. 14 years ago i traded in my brand new truck in for a older one. I still have that truck and still use it today! I still have less total cost into that truck after 14 years of repairs then the new ones purchase price. I went from a brand new quad cab hemi down to a 2nd gen cummins with 160,000 miles. Best thing i ever did!

[That Guy]

Friend of mine is a retired chemical engineer, worked for Du Pont. He has a collection on cars. My favorites are his 54 Buick Roadmaster 4dr, his "wifes" 53 Ford Thunderbird, and his 351 powered Cobra replica. I have yet to ride in something quite as smooth as that Buick. With two notable exceptions in my 27 years. 

 

Attended a gala and was given the opportunity to ride in a Bentley Continental. The price was a mind shattering $534,000. We started in a concert hall with a live jazz band. I shut the door and we whispered back and fourth to one another. The doors had 4 seals and the windows were double pane. Steering was effortless and ride was exemplary. We went over several speed bumps at the airport and you had to be paying attention to feel it were it not for the change in our inclination. Another acquaintance has a RR Phantom, I have no idea on price as I didn't ask. I'll just say that the idea is for the passengers not to know they are moving and it achieves that. The Phantom actually sits at the same height as SUV's these days and yet is a 'full size sedan' that comes in just under 3 tons.

 

There really isn't much of a reason to require the amount of road feel cars have now other than cost and 'sporty'. Road feel seems to give people a false sense of security, also car gets better fuel economy and is cheaper to make (to a point) as it gets lighter. It also rides worse all things being equal. Fuel economy is probably the big one these days.

[totally lost]

12 hours ago, That Guy said:

Friend of mine is a retired chemical engineer, worked for Du Pont. He has a collection on cars. My favorites are his 54 Buick Roadmaster 4dr, his "wifes" 53 Ford Thunderbird, and his 351 powered Cobra replica. I have yet to ride in something quite as smooth as that Buick. With two notable exceptions in my 27 years. 

 

Attended a gala and was given the opportunity to ride in a Bentley Continental. The price was a mind shattering $534,000. We started in a concert hall with a live jazz band. I shut the door and we whispered back and fourth to one another. The doors had 4 seals and the windows were double pane. Steering was effortless and ride was exemplary. We went over several speed bumps at the airport and you had to be paying attention to feel it were it not for the change in our inclination. Another acquaintance has a RR Phantom, I have no idea on price as I didn't ask. I'll just say that the idea is for the passengers not to know they are moving and it achieves that. The Phantom actually sits at the same height as SUV's these days and yet is a 'full size sedan' that comes in just under 3 tons.

 

There really isn't much of a reason to require the amount of road feel cars have now other than cost and 'sporty'. Road feel seems to give people a false sense of security, also car gets better fuel economy and is cheaper to make (to a point) as it gets lighter. It also rides worse all things being equal. Fuel economy is probably the big one these days.

Ohh don't forget the sales pitch that new is always better! New designs new feel while in reality maybe not better to many fools they believe it because they don't know what things was in the past. As i stated before many things people think is new is actually a very old idea and not modern at all. We have had cars hitting 45 50mpg back in the day. The 2 i remember and have a bit of experience with was the VW rabbit diesel and the Mercedes 300D. 45 mpg was no problem with the Mecedes with the non turbo version many times 47+mpg. I was always told if i had the turbo version over 50 was easy. Thats a pretty good size 4 door car to get that mileage. Even the VW rabbit gas versions did pretty good. What i find interesting is ever since i was a kid dad always told me he could pull 18mpg out of his 68 and 69 chargers with a big block provided he kept his foot out of it. Granted he was a mechanic so he could tune it pretty well but keeping your foot out of a charger with a 440 i'm sure was very hard haha Can these new modern cars get that with the same HP? I guess im not sure because i don't own one but have been told from 8 to 12mpg depending on who you talk to. If that was true what good did the over drive and lock up TC do? lol Over drive it self is nothing but a sales pitch. You could simply run a higher ratio diff and just run a lower 1st gear. You achieve the same low RPMs with less friction trying to spin shafts and gears faster then there input speed. Also less mass spinning is easier to spin.

I can't wait till someone tries to replace a round wheel for some new modern shape lmfao! You know because round is so old and out dated! Some things are just the best they can get and trying to change that will only end in worse results!