• Announcements

    • Mopar1973Man

      Quadzilla Tunes   06/12/2017

      QUADZILLA TUNE REPOSITORY - There is now a Quadzilla tune download area. When you submit a tune file to the download area it will automatically create a forum topic that allows discussion of your tune. So export your tune and upload it to the site. Then we all can help out in building better tunes. Check it out gang...
    • Mopar1973Man

      911 Support Group   06/22/2017

      Hey Gang, I've got the 911 support group database back up and running once again. It's listed in the 911 support category. It will allow members to list their contact information and location so other have a listed of members to call upon in the time of need. So if you wish to support other member please stop by and add your listing into the database. https://mopar1973man.com/cummins/911-support.html/contacts/

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

ISX

Winter Front Testing

63 posts in this topic

Since it was 10F this morning and going to be the same or colder tomorrow morning I figured I will get some statistics on how well a winter front works. I want to get mileage and time as to how long it takes to hit 190F. I will do a constant 55mph for these tests and be on the road within a minute of starting.

Today was without a winter front going straight into 20-30mph headwinds at 10F. Although synthetic oil seemed to not do anything at 20+F, you will notice that it cranks slower now that the conventional oil I am running starts to get really thick, you can even see how long it takes for it to get oil pressure. So synthetic does have it's place in the colder temps.

My EGT's were around 680F at 55mph when the engine was still under 130F, this proves how thick oil and cold surfaces make an engine have to really work. On the return trip with the engine at 190 and still at 55mph, the EGT was around 400F.

Posted Image

http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvVo4QMXX4Y

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good lord man you need to put on some pants you making me cold looking at the video... :stuned:

I didn't even get cold :lol: Gonna have to be in the negatives for me to switch to jeans.

I'm wondering if I should block off the entire radiator or just put the grill inserts in. According to the fraudcaster, it will be back to the same temp this evening and since I did that run at 7am (need to figure out how to switch radio clock back an hour lol), it should surely be back to 10F with the windchill and everything by 9pm. Then I can run the grill inserts. Then in the morning block off the radiator, intercooler, everything I can.

--- Update to the previous post...

Only been 5 hours and the whole truck is back to freezing, will wait for 9pm anyways. Got the grill inserts in so I'm ready. Yes I put them in in shorts and a tshirt hahaha, windchill is -1F right now, I was out there for at least 5 min. It's only cold if your mind is set on how cold it is :lmao:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

windchill is -1F right now, I was out there for at least 5 min. It's only cold if your mind is set on how cold it is :lmao:

until hypothermia kicks in and you die....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

until hypothermia kicks in and you die....

Don't change the subject! :lol: All you need is adrenaline and weather is no longer a factor. A lot of times I will run to the end of the field and back before I do anything outside, works good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

guesswho...look at his age

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can see this thread is going to be long lol. Another 2 hours and it will be time for Mike's winter front. Should be the same 10F as this morning. Found out it will be -1F in the morning so we can see how that premium blue works (looking forward to it :hyper:).

I also forgot that I have my underhood temps (the thing that said 7.9F this morning). That gauge has 2 probes, one is in the air vent and the other is zip tied right to the top of the air filter. Then I have the overhead one that gets its info from the probe right next to the drivers side headlight. I am thinking the winter front *should* raise underhood temps. Have to wait and see.

With no fan or shroud on it, the air blows right through unrestricted and in 70F ambient temps I was getting around 10-15F over ambient in the engine compartment. Now that freezing temps have hit, it runs either right at or a degree warmer than ambient.

I am going to try and block as much as possible for tomorrows negative temps.

--- Update to the previous post...

Just made the run with the grill inserts in. Temp, wind, route, everything, it was all identical. I'll probably get fired now though.

Posted Image

The underhood temps were the same as ambient, as they were before. EGT's were the same too. Everything was exactly the same as you can see. In other words, from my testing I can't find any difference between running them and running without them. :shrug:

http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gZ7W4IuByc

Tomorrow I am going to cover every single thing I can, like I keep saying, then we will see what happens. My theory with all of this has been that the radiator should have nothing to do with anything since it isn't part of the system until the thermostat opens, and if you got a thermostat that works (like I finally got), then it should barely open and it will go to 195 or what have you, and stop. I know it blocks the cold from hitting the engine block but I hardly see the block as something that radiates it's own heat very well so I see it as a non-issue. So far, my theory is proving to be right. Tomorrow will prove it once and for all, for me anyways.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This morning I blocked the entire radiator off with cardboard, didn't even put a hole in the center. Left the grill inserts in as well. It was 1F outside and maybe 10mph wind. Same route, same speed, same everything cept ambient temp (others were 10F).

Posted Image

So even with all that stuff blocking it, there was no change. It was a little longer because of the lower temps but basically the same. This shows that with a thermostat that works, you can block off everything you want but your just blocking stuff that isn't even a part of the circuit (until thermostat opens).

I also found it interesting how consistent the premium blue started.

http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NhL9ahhmF8

Now there is one thing that happened that may or may not have thrown everything off. Since I didn't have a hole in that cardboard, I stopped on the side of the road and pulled the cardboard out once I had my 190F data. The water pump bearings were shot but no coolant was leaking or anything. I went straight to NAPA and got a new pump, by the time I got home the bearing had disintegrated and coolant was spewing out of it. I know it was still pumping just fine and it wasn't leaking while I did this final test so the results should be accurate. But just to be sure, I am going to get it all fixed and make another run in the morning to see if the times are still identical so I will know for sure that the pump didn't screw up my readings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh My... Pants and Jacket... It must be cold now... :lol: Still a shock that totally blocked off there was very little change. Nice to see the engine oil is consistant about starting up mine does the same thing... Sorry to hear about losing the water pump...:rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Got the new water pump in. Seemed to go from 130-190 just as fast as before so I am going to say everything I posted is accurate, but will still try tomorrow morning. Weird thing is even the underhood temps were the same freezing cold with the cardboard covering everything. It needs a whole plate underneath the engine or something. There is no reason it should even need a winter front if the thermostat works. Covering up the radiator shouldn't make any difference at all because it doesn't use the radiator when warming up. This thread just proved it. The engine block is not going to care regardless, the only thing the cold air is hitting is the timing cover which yeah, big whoop. Then it slides down the side of the block which, yeah, there is not much heat transfer that is going to happen with an iron block. Everyone knows this, look at how long it takes for the fire poker stick thing to cool down if someone leaves it next to the fire, iron is not aluminum or copper, it takes forever to change it's temp. Now here is something probably against everyones way of thinking. I think the Cummins OEM thermostats are junk. Think about it, everyone uses them, everyone sees a difference with a winter front or at least thinks they do which means the thermostat is somehow flowing, and everyone sees that incredible gauge swaying. I don't know what part of that makes anyone think the OEM ones are good. The one I put in was for a 5.9 V8 gasser and goes to the proper temp and stays there and the winter front makes no difference (as I just showed). Another fact is that my OEM would wait until 220F before opening, then the temp would drop to 150 and just keep going back and forth, closing the range until it was bouncing between 190 and 200. Now this is not a gauge issue where the thing reads in the back of the head, I found out that is BS also after putting a mechanical gauge in the heater core which runs to the front of the engine and it matches the gauge in the back of the head. The weird thing about this was it was a 180F thermostat and when I stuck it in boiling water, it would start to open at 180 and be fully open soon after, but it wasn't like that in the truck. I just can't figure out what. I looked at how it was installed and everything and it was all in their correctly, the same as this new one I put in, but somehow once you put it in the engine, it becomes a POS. So I don't know what to think of it. The OEM thermostat before that one did the same thing but worked fine in boiling water also. Something is just screwed up in how the OEM ones are installed or something, I just don't know what.What's even more interesting is in the morning the fan clutch is so cold it might as well be locked up so it is pulling all that cold air straight through the radiator even though the winter front is on, I don't even have a fan on it and didn't notice anything so I am beginning to wonder about some things :smart:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ISX,I really like that digital guage over your dash cluster. That's what I want to do when I put my guages in. Very slick.Interesting about the warm up. I wonder what the IAT (at the manifold) do under these conditions. I've always believed that the winter front or blocking the radiator for that matter would raise the air temp at the filter. What are you running for a filter & where does it draw from? My thought has been that drawing prewarmed air would reduce the time on the cold engine rich setting. This is very interesting data.Thankyou.(Glad you found some pants)Russ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ISX, I really like that digital guage over your dash cluster. That's what I want to do when I put my guages in. Very slick. Interesting about the warm up. I wonder what the IAT (at the manifold) do under these conditions. I've always believed that the winter front or blocking the radiator for that matter would raise the air temp at the filter. What are you running for a filter & where does it draw from? My thought has been that drawing prewarmed air would reduce the time on the cold engine rich setting. This is very interesting data. Thankyou. (Glad you found some pants) Russ

The IAT is the only thing I can't monitor. I know Mike can and I believe he says it warms it up a little. I have a BHAF that draws from where the airbox used to be. The air going to the filter is just as cold as outside, there is no heat there because I have one of my temp sensors on top of the air filter and in the winter it is always at ambient or a degree above at the max. Summer is a different story as I get 10-15F over ambient. EGT's are no different between running nothing and running cardboard/winter front. The thicker oil raises the EGT up and helps heat the engine up. I don't remember what the amsoil ran at the same temp but I am pretty sure it was a lot lower since it isn't as thick at the same temps as conventional oil.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My thought has been that drawing prewarmed air would reduce the time on the cold engine rich setting.

Well the diesel is a different beast for cold weather. The amount of fuel used cold is slightly increase but just enough to hold idle governor speed. As for preheating the air the 24V do preheat the air only after there is coolant temp to do so... Like my 24V will match dead on for IAT and Outside temps. I start to see the offset about 140*f and then the offset grows as the coolant rises to 190*F and above. Typically the IAT will match cold but rise up to +40*F offset of the outside temp. Then if you got a winter front on the IAT will have a max of +50*F offset typically. Reason for this is the air isn't blowing through the intercoolers all the time.

What's even more interesting is in the morning the fan clutch is so cold it might as well be locked up so it is pulling all that cold air straight through the radiator even though the winter front is on

Hmmm... My fan only stays locked from 1st to 2nd gear then its fully unlocked after that it remains unlocked for the rest of the run... :shrug:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well the diesel is a different beast for cold weather. The amount of fuel used cold is slightly increase but just enough to hold idle governor speed. As for preheating the air the 24V do preheat the air only after there is coolant temp to do so...

Like my 24V will match dead on for IAT and Outside temps. I start to see the offset about 140*f and then the offset grows as the coolant rises to 190*F and above. Typically the IAT will match cold but rise up to +40*F offset of the outside temp. Then if you got a winter front on the IAT will have a max of +50*F offset typically. Reason for this is the air isn't blowing through the intercoolers all the time.

I'm beginning to think that needs to be tested accurately also. How much heat can a turbo sucking in 10F air (or less) that builds 5psi be making.. I think if it were 30F+ it might make a difference but once it gets down to 10F I don't think it stands a chance. It is just like my underhood temps for summer and winter. In the winter it is just too cold to have any heat build, the cold ambient temp strips the heat instantly. The only time it begins to build some heat is under 10mph. It will build considerable heat if you are stopped, but moving you have no chance at all. If the IAT needs to go up, then it should be integrated with the exhaust to steal back some heat, a blocked intercooler won't do anything in the frigid temps as far as I can tell.

Hmmm... My fan only stays locked from 1st to 2nd gear then its fully unlocked after that it remains unlocked for the rest of the run... :shrug:

You can't tell me it just stops moving when it unlocks. It is still turning a good number and pulling in air somewhat. According to your winter front page you went from 5-10 mile warm up down to "less than 3 miles" though you said warm up temp was 160-190. I don't know how you could make that any sketchier. Even so, I don't see how I could notice nothing without a fan to make matters worse, and you get such a big increase in heat production while keeping the fan. Something is askew with all this. The only thing I can think of is everyones thermostats somehow are flowing when they shouldn't be. I might take my thermostat housing back off and analyze my old thermostat and it's position in there to figure out why it is crap in the truck but fine in a pot of boiling water.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have noticed on my truck there is a 2-3 miles difference with the front on. The intake air temps are about 30* hotter and the EGT are warmer too, it all helps the tstat open much sooner for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have noticed on my truck there is a 2-3 miles difference with the front on. The intake air temps are about 30* hotter and the EGT are warmer too, it all helps the tstat open much sooner for me.

I'm going to double verify my number when I get a chance...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't monitor all these parameters but I am still basically stock so my overhead is still accurate. I can be getting say 17.5mpg when I shut down, as soon as I cold start, the AVERAGE mpg drops to say 17.3-17.4 and run that way for several miles (5-10 ??). Once I am warmed up, the mpgs will over a 20 mile trip, creap back up. I've never checked how far but it certainly is my impression that it's much less with the cold front on. You may be right. The thermostat is not open. It could just be the cold air blowing over the block, plus suckng every bit of heat possible out through the heater. Unless I'm towing the TT in summer my temp guage climbs to the center mark & hovers there +/- a needle width. I guess the worth of the cold front it open to debate... but I'm keeping mine.Russ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I couldn't make heads or tails with the winter fronts so thats that. I did use the IR on the intercooler from the turbo side to the other side and there seemed to be a consistent 30F difference on the aluminum surface. So I will go with the increased IAT temp findings. Other than that, I can't find anything it does. Even if it does increase the IAT's it didn't help my warm up time at all. Thing is, the computerized trucks seem to rely on the IAT's so I guess any and all increases from the frigid air temp would be noticed in timing or something and that is why there would be a mileage increase. Now the other part of the story, the thermostat.. I have been testing that piece of crap since early morning. I found out the POS one is a OEM napa one, not the oem cummins one. Anyhow, I took the working thermostat and the POS thermostat and put them side by side in a pot of boiling water, low and behold the POS one opened sooner, though it should because it is a 180F compared to the new one being a 195. They both fully opened eventually with the POS one beating the good one. I won't bore you with the whole test, unless you want to see it for some reason, as I did record it.

So I put the POS one back in the truck and ran it and sure enough, back to 220 and down to 150 swaying it went. I started to look a little closer at the 2 and noticed something about the POS one that the other didn't have. A spring loaded disc that seemed to try and seal itself in a hole. I have no idea what this was for but the one that worked didn't have it so I cut the disc off so it wouldn't be trying to seal itself.

Well that didn't work. I stared at it some more and found out I could just pull that whole end off and it would be exactly the same as the thermostat that works.

That didn't work either. The only things left are the gasket underneath the POS one since I don't use that on the other one. I don't see how that would make any difference but I am going to try it tomorrow. One interesting thing is how that bypass tube works that seems to be a 12V thing. It has a little pin thing in it that drops if the water is not pushing on it, once the water pushes it seals up so it's like it's not even there. This explains why it doesn't take forever to warm up if it was just a straight through hose.

Here is what I had to do to adapt to the smaller design.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Geez... Now I'm glad I don't have a 12V... :lmao2::lmao: All the junk that was added on your doesn't exist on a 24V...

What junk?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What junk?

Look at your videos. To the folks with no exposed wires in the cab of their trucks, yours looks like the old time telephone switching boards!!!!!!!:doh: Just saying!!:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ISX,I've seen those bypass thermostats in Marine applications... because they had wet exhausts... some cooling (sea) water had to flowing out at all times to keep from burning out the reinforced rubber exhausts. When the thermostast opened, more water flowed out. I tried a good 160 bypass in a old Jeep wagon I had... had a Buick engine... overheated instantly. A new thermostat of conventional design fixed it. What does the book call for? Russ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ISX, I've seen those bypass thermostats in Marine applications... because they had wet exhausts... some cooling (sea) water had to flowing out at all times to keep from burning out the reinforced rubber exhausts. When the thermostast opened, more water flowed out. I tried a good 160 bypass in a old Jeep wagon I had... had a Buick engine... overheated instantly. A new thermostat of conventional design fixed it. What does the book call for? Russ

The stock ones are the ones that don't work (do all the swaying). I can't figure out what that hole is that the stock thermostat seemed to seal off. After ripping everything off that thermostat and making it as bare as the thermostat that works, the only difference is the design. The one that works is a superstat, the junk one is something else, maybe stant. If the air is out of the system then that bypass should be closed by design. The thermostats act identical in boiling water and the superstat one starts to open at 195 and keeps the truck between 195 and 200 which it is just like that in boiling water. But you put the other thermostat in the truck, and it's a different animal, even after making it identical to the superstat. I don't get it. I am going to do more testing tomorrow and see what else I can figure out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites