VP44 PSG fuel cooler ideas

[KATOOM]

As little as I understand about that technology I couldn't not wonder why someone wouldn't have or didn't use a shielded ribbon cable but I was no one to be second guessing the discussion either.  All I know is as it was explained to me, the farther they got the PSG from the VP, the more problems they supposedly had with interference.  It just seems like the most logical thing to do is to move the item away from the heat which is most susceptible to the heat.   If you cant move it far enough away somewhere like the firewall or fender, at least build an raised height base for the PSG which allows it to sit up and out an inch or two away from the housing and engine block.  That would also give it far more fuel volume running underneath it.  Again, I have no tooling available to create such a base so my ideas are just grains of salt. 

[Yankneck696]

I will have to look into the relocation idea. Might be able to build a kit for it. Not sure if it would throw the tonewheel sensor out of whack, though.

 

Ed

[KATOOM]

Now thats a good point.  I wasnt thinking about the tone wheel.  But as long as the timing sensor remained in its proper position, why would it affect it?

[Yankneck696]

I guess it's time for me to get a core VP....

Ed

[KATOOM]

What about noise filters?  Like the DDT noise filter which some people with auto trannys find they need.  I understand that this "noise" also affects the APPS as well?.....

[Yankneck696]

If done properly, there will be no noise filter needed at all.Twisted shielded pairs for each unit connected should in all the laws of emf, should negate any noise.

 

Ed

[KATOOM]

Honestly I ran across the filter when reading this information about proper grounding, how easily its done incorrectly, and some of the problems it can cause.  And along those lines, "could" there be a connection with APPS sensor issues or VP issues resulting from alternator voltage?  Supposedly its "heat" which harms the VP PSG but could interference overloading play a part? http://www.w8ji.com/negative_lead_to_battery.htm

[Yankneck696]

Noise from the alternator (Wether diodes or brushes) increases with RPMs. In your case, the RPMs dropped when you upshifted. I still think it's a heat/PSG issue.

Ed

[flagmanruss]

A separated computer is an interesting idea...  as I posted earlier, Chip (Blue Chip Diesel) describes heat soak from the hot engine as a major problem...  after shut down & cooling stopped.  Certainly idling after a pull, until normal operating temp is reached, can get rid of excess heat...   But what is the board were not or minimally connected to the block...  so heat soak would disappate.  A small cooling fan could move excess heat away from the propsed separate housed board. 

I think one of the problems...  same as the OEM lift pump...  was the design requiement that the power package be all self contained as purchased. 

Too late the VP44 was dropped...  rather than perfected...   

[Mopar1973Man]

I personally can see the heat soak issue with a factory lift pump (35 GPH) with fuel pressures between 8-13 PSI. With the lower fuel pressure you couldn't wash out the heat in a timely manner. But now like myself I've got a idle pressure of 17 PSI and WOT PSI of 15 PSI which is not a issue with holding the overflow valve open and wash the heat out in a very fast manner. Even after driving in 100*F heat barely 130*F after shut down isn't a issue. Even 10 minutes of heat soak still at 130*F. But again I'm on top of my truck and keep it right. But now looking at the average Joe Farmer stock fuel system, stock filter, weak lift pump. Oh yeah... Your going to have heat soak and tough time cooling the PSG unit. Then again I've got a 10 year old VP44 still running strong with 183k miles on it. So how much is it design issues, owner issues, or plain ol' don't care...

[KATOOM]

Well I had a chance to take the truck out for a test with my new toy laser thermometer.....  Cool device and this is what I read after a mere 15 miles drive in 90* afternoon temps:

 

Ambient temp- 88* per OHD

Fuel tank- 90.7*

Top of Raptor fuel pump- 103* (that surprised me)

Bottom of Raptor- 97*

Raptor fuel outlet- 96*

Fuel filter housing lid- 107*

Fuel filter housing- 110*

Fuel line from filter to VP-103*

VP inlet- 112*

Top of PSG- 115* (moderate warmth to the touch)

VP outlet- 125*

 

After 15-20 minutes shutdown:

Ambient temp- 86* per OHD

Fuel tank- 91*

Top of Raptor fuel pump- 98*

Bottom of Raptor- 95*

Raptor fuel outlet- 95*

Fuel line from filter to VP-105*

VP inlet- 103*

Top of PSG- 128* (getting pretty hot.  OK to touch but much hotter and it would be too uncomfortable to hold my hand on)

VP outlet- 130*

 

The laser thermometer tool I bought was good quality so I know its readings are accurate enough but whether or not my laser guiding skills are up to snuff and whether or not there wasnt any outer lying influence affecting those temps.....I couldnt say.  But I have plans on carrying the thermometer with me in the truck for many future readings.

[flagmanruss]

Electronics can & do create their own heat during use...  your readings indicate this.  So I ASK is the first problem, the board heating up in use & not being originally designed to disipate it.  Chip indicated latest Bosh Upgraded computer has a larger heat sink.  http://www.bluechipdiesel.com/injectionpumpfailures.html   This is the #1 one of the VP44 failures...  The are also mechanical issues which have fixes available in Blue Chip rebuilt IPs.  Note there are no new VP44s being sold in the USA.  ~zero~ 

[Mopar1973Man]

Still 130*F is nothing... Even my CPU in my desktop get's hotter.

 

[Yankneck696]

Your computer is produced using lead based solder.

http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/solder.htm

The last line is the most important:

Lead-free solder has a higher Young's modulus than lead-based solder, making it more susceptible when deforming applied. When the PCB on which the electronic components are mounted is subject to bending stress due to warping, the solder joint deteriorates and fractures can appear. This effect is called solder cracking. ^[12] Another fault is Kirkendall voids which are microscopic cavities in solder. When two different types of metal that are in contact are heated, dispersion occurs (see also Kirkendall effect). Repeated thermal cycling cause the formation of voids which tends to cause solder cracks. Lead-free solder can cause short life cycles of products, as well as planned obsolescence

Ed

[rancherman]

HA...   I can't help myself here...  

Like they  say in the  Southwest,   'yah,  you don't even  notice it...  no humidity'    (130 degrees)

Edited August 14, 2014 by rancherman

[flagmanruss]

I'm confused...  they are blaming computer faileres on lead free solder.  I googled it & it seems 60/40 is still available but discouraged.  I still have a spool of 60/40 from my electronics work & I'm not about to change.  I don't eat circuit boards... 

[rancherman]

Well I had a chance to take the truck out for a test with my new toy laser thermometer....

 

The laser thermometer tool I bought was good quality so I know its readings are accurate enough but whether or not my laser guiding skills are up to snuff and whether or not there wasnt any outer lying influence affecting those temps.....I couldnt say.  But I have plans on carrying the thermometer with me in the truck for many future readings.

I started  carrying  one  with me  this week...  what  a great   diagnostic tool!    At the end of the  day of  baling hay... I walk around  the machine  with the  laser,  and   hit up   each of  bearings..     takes  about  2 minutes  to cover the  whole  baler.    I already found one  that  was  'on the way out'...   I possibly  prevented  a  fire!

Just  think of  the  applications  on   our  trucks...   U joints,  wheel bearings,     

[Yankneck696]

The EPA has mandated lead free solder for quite some time. Their reasoning is that the electronics get pulverized & smelted along with the rest of the car upon recycling. Problem is that all electronic modules are removed & stocked on shelves before crushing. I workes auto salvage for 5 years & pulled tens of thousands of electronic modules & inventoried them. We made more money on them as mail order products than engines, transmissions, alternators & power steering pumps combined.

 

Rancherman, doing your temp measurements & keeping track of them will save you quite a bit in repairs, because you will see an upwards trend before breakage. Put them in a spreadsheet to keep track. This is a normal practice in commercial boats/fishing.

 

Ed

[KATOOM]

I too feel that 130* is nothing, but unfortunately I've put my hand on that PSG before and it was HOT!!!!!  How hot?.....I have no idea but now that I have a way to quickly check its temperatures, I'll be posting back with what I find.  Yeah.....this is the coolest little device.  Why I never bought one before, I dont know.

 

As for the lead free solder, I'm sorta confused.  The coldest melting point in one of those links Ed posted was 244*.  Clearly if the Pb free solder in the PSG needs to get that hot before melting then this is NOT the problem.  But.....the link on tin whiskers is VERY INTERESTING.  Great reads Ed!  If half of this is true then blamo.....I think you just uncovered the beast which causes all the problems.

 

Again, the question will always arise as to why the ECM doesn't have the same problems but maybe there's a unknown difference in manufacturing between the two which plays a part in reliability.  Nonetheless its obvious that tin solder has a historical problem and instead of dealing with the issue logically by getting rid of it, they merely chalked the problems up as good for the consumer market by keeping things rotating. http://www.rfcafe.com/references/resources/tin-whiskers.htm  I wasnt happy to read that last paragraph on that page.....  And in saying all that, unless I missed something in those links, I didnt see where any issues with solder connectivity issues were a result from heat.  So whats that mean?????  Is the PSG just doomed to constant failure and the differences in reliability are merely just if you happen to have a good one?

Edited August 14, 2014 by KATOOM

[Mopar1973Man]

Ok. So pointing to the solder. How about thee ECM and the PCM? Why is the ECM mounted to the side of the hot coolant jacket and most likely made with the same solder too so why doesn't it fail quick?