No shift, trans tore down 3 times, electrics changed TPS issue

[dseabaugh]

My stepson in Chicago tells me this foum has the smartest people on earth for trouble shooting.  This is the 3rd forum I 've asked on so it must be the charm.

No shift, trans torn down 3 times, electrics replaced 3 times. this is long details

This is the ongoing No shift issue of 3 months continuing teardowns and parts replacements today's TPS wires show wrong voltage unplugged. results next paragraph.

http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/94...ight-help.html

which is also copied below.

This morning I decided to follow JL12valves advice and check the TPS again.

Put i pin in the middle wire ( orange) and got 5 volts at idle and 5 at WOT. I think is should have read 1.5 to about 3 at WOT. I unplugged it and checked the wires.

Black wire 0 as should be it's ground

Orange wire ( center signal I think) 5.04 v

Purple wire 5.09 volts

Here's the deal. 1997 2500 4x4 47RE auto will not shift to O.D. or lock the torque. I've owned it since it was a year old. pretty much stock except torque plate and Jimmy jammers in doors.

Transmission rebuilt under warranty in 1999 @ 70,000

BD V.B installed in 1999

The last 4 years the tranny would shudder under a heavy load unless the throttle was light. No metal in the pan, ever. Always had synthetic oil with regular changes.

Saved up for a new oversize clutch billet torque converter and Kolene kit and finally purchased in Jan. Takes a long time. $434.50 a month SS only goes so far. I should have taken the offer from a couple of you guys who offered to rebuild it for free the year I had 10 surgeries but I was not up to the long drive and years of hard work and pride make charity hard to accept so I didn't.

started not shifting into o.d. in June. 129,000 on the clock. Drove to town for code read. code said output sensor so replaced it. All fine.

Pulled the transmission so I could put the converter and kit in. Needed the core $ bad. Put the rebuild kit in too. Put in another V.B. I had after putting a transgo kit in it. Plus new borg electrics and harness. No shift to 3-O.D. $200 in Amsoil.

Put the BD V.B in . Still the same. Changed the electrics again. No change. Put 100 Ohm resister in B31 wire. No change. Jumped the terminals at the relay so it had 12v all the time on #1 wire on trans plug. still no difference.

Pulled transmission, tore down, new seal kit my stepson bought me since I was out of parts $, found nothing out of order.

BD v.b. installed again with new electrics again. New Trans relay. TPS again. At this point I do not know if any electrics are good and have switched them so many times I have lost track which is which other than the Borg ones are bigger.

Pulled transmission out again and still find nothing wrong. Ordered a VB on ebay and could not install it because the holes were full of dirt. Not going to tear down another VB when it is supposed to be useable. ( still no answer to the request to return for a refund). Put gauges on trans today. No change in trans operation. Gauge test results below.

Nobody has anything in this town any more. Spent 4 hours going place to place trying to find fittings to use my hoses.

Had to buy new hoses and could not get 400 lb hose w/o spending $100 on hydraulic. WTF? I have a hundred feet of hydraulic hose but could get no fittings. Auto Tire and parts had a hose rated at 300# and it would literally swell up in my hand when the pressure would hit 300. The way it swells up, I don't want to know how close the burst pressure is to that. That's why I pulled the truck outside to test.

Here's my tests results. Do not match anything in my trouble shoot book so I have no clue what they mean other than the only thing that is right is 1st and 2nd. sorry the cloumn headers do not line up. Cannot get them to do that on any forum.

test port

pressure

rpm

pressure with TV valve lever pulled back

Low accumulator   60     1000     110

rear servo              60     1000     110

2nd accumulator   65     1000       92

Drive accumulator 100  1600      100

front Servo            -0-    1600        -0-

Reverse Rear servo 300 as soon as put in gear then drops to 100 and stays there 1600 rpm

governor governor in drive    -0-       all

O.D. O.D.        -0-

I need help figuring out what this means. I have literally spent the last 3 months working on this thing plus the last 3 months SS check on seals, electrics, filters, etc. I am to the point if I spend 1 more $, I cannot make next months house payment. Advice would be very helpful. Thanks.

'97 2500 club cab SLT Longbed 4x4 auto, #6 plate,fwd; 24v starter contacts.355 gears.Oversize wheel cyls, BD power Valve Body. 75 hp no-smoke injectors from Red Oak Diesel that smoke, DSS stabilizer, 70a fuel shut-off relay, 118,000 mi 12/07 after 8 yers ownership. all Synthetic, Luke's link ,Jimmi Jammers

[Wild and Free]

Lets back up, on a 47RE in a 24v it will not allow upshift into OD or lock the converter until the engine is up to 140*f but not sure if it is the same on a 97 12v, I think that came along as an emissions thing with the 24v but not completely certain.

This all started with the converter swap and everything has been disassembled or replaced again and again since the converter swap except the converter am I reading into this right?

Just eliminating possibilities here.

 

What are the specs on the oil pressures from the FSM versus what you are getting?

[dseabaugh]

The pressures are posted . scroll down. this is a 97 12v.   Pressures were tested warmed up.

FSM says reverse should be 300/300  i had 300 drops to 100 and /0 on the other port

O.d has been an on and off issue as well as torque converter shudder for 4 years.

in Drive the accumulator port shows 100  book says it should be 60, the front servo shows  zero, book says it should be 60

 

I am no trying to find out where that orange signal wire  from the TPS goes to.  I assume some teminal on the PCM.   Stealer says I have to make an appointment plus bring the truck to them to test the PCM.  somewhere the signal is getting 5 volts when the wire is unplugged from the TPS in other words on the plug unplugged I haf  voltage of 0-5-5.

d

[dseabaugh]

Converter has been the same one since the first install. It's got 8 miles on it now from road testing it each time.

Will shift to 3rd sometimes, not always. Never od.   All gears were working before the teardown after TPS and Output sensor replace.  months of intermittant before they were replaced.  I do not go anywhere much any more. This truck has only had 12,000 miles put on in in the last 7 years. garage kept.

Drainback is horrible after it shuts off.  takes a bit to get the thing going. Drain back has been an issue when parked ever since the BD v.b was installed new in 1999 but not as bad as it is now.

[MnTom]

I question why you have +5 V on the sensor wire with the TPS unplugged. Dave Goerends told me that these PCMs look at the TPS (for engine load) and the speed sensor (on transmission) to determine what gear to be in. With +5 V on the TPS signal wire tells me the wire is shorted somewhere and you need to find it.

[dseabaugh]

I would expect  1.5 v on one wire, 5 on another. When I plug the black plug into the PCM the  voltage jumps from 1.53 to 5.09.  the voltages are right on the PCM when nothing is plugged into it.

I tested 22 hot to 23 signal  wires at the PCM plug unplugged and unplugged at the TPS with an ohm meter and there was no short. 

I had also tried cutting the 23 wire at pcm plug but voltage would again show 5.09 instead of 1.53

The diagram I have shows 6 wires on the black PCM plug but I have 14. I am suspecting one of these wires or wherever they lead from is triggering the PCM to put the whole juice through.  I don't know.  I 'm lost.  $3000 in this thing when I had only planned on $1000 and 160 hours work and I am out of ideas.  Called the dealer today.  They quoted me $100 to check the PCM on the truck only plus $100 per hour.  Can't afford it. On a side note, this is the same dealer that rebuilt the trans under warranty in 1999. I was not happy then becaus it was not the same trans it had been before shift wise or otherwise. Had junk yard paint markings all over it and TC,  but it has run for years.  When I tore it down I found parts welded up and washers stacked up behind the aluminum planetaries  where they had been chewed up, even worn grooves into the steel pins, but they just washered up the slack.  sadly we have never had a good dealer and I have had 3 new ones since 1987. Yes the 5v  when I plug in the plug when it should read the same 1.53 as it does with nothing plugged in is flooring me.  I don't know anyone knowelegable in Dodges to call. everyone I know are ford fanatics.

[MnTom]

That to me sounds a lot like a PCM problem. There is no reason to have any voltage on the sensor wire since that is what the PCM looks at to figure out what the load is on the engine.

[dseabaugh]

I thought PCm yesterday till I found the PCM voltages are correct with the black plug unplugged form it and then they go wonky if you plug it in.  Plug has 2) grounds, 1 hot  fused ( engine fuse i think) 2) 5 volt terminals and the 1 signal wire to the TPS.  that leaves one of the other 8 wires from somewhere is triggering the  computer to go wonky is my thought.  I just don't know what sensor ??? could do that.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I have this posted on many forums, this is the second time I've tried and you are the only one that has given some logical thoughts related to the problem.  I appreciate it.

d

[dseabaugh]

Here's what I have on the C1 or A black connector.  14 wires total

9   no clue where it goes

8   Engine crank sensor signal

7   no clue

6   park neutral switch

2    Fused start run.  has 11.82 volts. ( batteries are a shade low after 3 months trying to fix this)

17   5 volt  from PCM to TPs . has 5.09 like is 'sposed

16   Coolant temp sensor

15   no clue

31    ground to engine.  I put lots of extra grounds on the truck years ago to make sure I had no light dimming for night driving.

         The advantage of using dueal top/side post batteries.

30   No clue again

27   no clue

23   TPS Signal wire. PCM voltage is 1.53 with A plug unplugged, 5.09 if you plug it back in

22   fused to battery  11.82 v.

4    ground to: TPS, Speed Sensor, Engine coolant sensor, All Solenoids in trans, crank sensor

[MnTom]

If you unplug the TPS you say you get +5V on two of the three wires at the connector?

[dseabaugh]

correct.  reading is same at the black C1 plug at the PCM but it you unplug the C! connector at the PCM, then the voltages on the PCM w/o anything plugged in are correct.   I checked the wire for short between pcm and TPS.  No short.  Even cut the wires and ran new ones to make certain.

Worked on it till midnight.  Exhausted but first full nights sleep in a year.

@ PCM plug C1 or A, ignition switch to on

9   orange wire  -0-

8 engine speed signal  grey w/ blk stripe .04 v

7 yellow withred stripe 11.46v

6 park neutral  black w/white stripe .04v

2 fused start/run green 11.82v

17 5v to TPS 5.09v

16 Coolant sensor signal Pink w/ blacke stripe 5.09

15 Blk w/red stripe 4.0v

31 grnd to engine

30 assume another ground

27 grn w/pink stripe 5.07v

23 TPS signal wire 1.53 on PCM w/PCm connector unplugged, 5.09 when it is plugged in.

22 fused battery 11.82v

4 ground to TPS, Speed sensor, Coolant sensor, Engine speed sensor, all solenoids in trans

You can note sinc elast email, i have some voltages onwires I have no idea where they go to

I am wondering  if there is an incompatability between the new sensors in the trans and the new VB harness.

If I remeber correctly wire 1 on the plug that goes into the top of the VB had a fraction of the 12v someone told me it should have several weeks ago. Will check again afterwhile. I think that goes from the Trans relay to trans.   I tried jumping 12v across relay and made no change.

[mopartechnician]

You should have no voltage on signal wire with tps unplugged. If you have 5 volts, it is either grounded to the tps power wire or some other short to sensor voltage (5v). I would ohm between the signal and power wire at the tps connector while unplugged.

[dseabaugh]

Ohmed between a few days ago. No short.

Unplugged  round trans plug from trans this morn.  No change.

[Ilikeoldfords]

With all the testing you have done, it would seem like the only thing it could be is a PCM problem. Do you know anyone with a similar truck that you could swap PCM's with? That way you could rule out that anyway.

[Wild and Free]

I am      here.

My question is why the focus on electrical when you posted results showing low or no pressure issues in reverse and others, this is an indicator of a mechanical issue not electrical. One needs to find the mechanical issue before condemning the electrical system.

 

I have read and reread everything and am still confused as to the timing of events.

Did it drive and shift through and into all gears before the converter swap or not?

Seems like that is the one single event that caused it to not shift at all. All the copy and pastes and jumping around with electrical issues seems to be consuming the discussion,  just trying to get back to the simple basic chain of events first knowing it had glitchy shifts before but it did shift before the converter swap.

[dseabaugh]

Yes it did shift before converter swap

There were intermitent shift issues to lock-up before the swap.

When the converter was installed trans had a complete teardown and all wear items replaced as well as all electric incl harness and all billet pistons.

[dseabaugh]

trans has been pulled and torn down 2 times, 1 including tearing down another trans and matching parts piece by piece. resealed  each time

That is why I started chasing electric.

I would have swapped VB to try that if the VB I ordered on ebay had not been to junky and dirty to put in.

I know no-one around here with a similar truck.  They are either gassers,  48RE 24 valves or newer

[dseabaugh]

Error . Trans has been pulled and torn down 3 times.

[Hawkez]

Hasn't there been discussions on here regarding alternators with "dirty" voltage causing shifting problems?  Or am I thinking of something else?

[dseabaugh]

I have heard that. I was rearended and dealer replaced  alternator and wiring harness from trailer hitch to  front wheel well because it shorted trailer plug and melted part of wire before the 40 amp fuse blew.  When I unplug and plug in the big connector on the PCM you can hear the alt click and the  cruise control servo click.