Advanced timing with Blue Chip Special X VP44

[Greenlee]

Just my preference. There is Autometer, ISSPro, Westach, Glow Shift, etc. The reason I went for the EV2's was two fold. I wanted to figure out why all these people are having issues with electric gauges and figure out a solution. Second part was I learned that EV2's are programmable so you can set your alarm limits in the gauge to lit a red warning light or hook up a relay to trigger a device like maybe a fan or similar. That is the only reason I jumped for the EV2's. But as for pricing I would consider EV's (mechanical gauges).

 

I originally came from DiPricol's which went out of business years ago. Another quality gauge but no where to be found now.

 

Glowshift is consider a very low budget gauge. Still functional but there has been issues with use of the gauge. Once again the problems are based around the electric senders which I'm studying currently.

 

Westach is a very good quality mechanical gauge but not very stylish. Lot of people like them because they are nearly bulletproof.

 

Autometer is another well known gauge. But can be a bit pricey for the different styles.

I spent several hours online checking out gauges. I called Parleys Diesel Performance and they said it would be no problem to put some packages together with everything needed to install. Parleys Diesel Performance also sells the ISSPro and Autometer. I think there might be a couple of more brands but i did not check.

[Greenlee]

I spent several hours online checking out gauges. I called Parleys Diesel Performance and they said it would be no problem to put some packages together with everything needed to install. Parleys Diesel Performance also sells the ISSPro and Autometer. I think there might be a couple of more brands but i did not check.

Well maybe I didn’t hit the end of the thread yet.  You’re killing me Michael over gauges. I spent a lot of time looking at mechanical gauges because you told me about issues, too many failures and to stay away from electric. You are now using some high dollar ISSPro electrical gauges for research. The cost of the electrical average $250 to $275 and rely on first class stepper motors for accuracy along with the sending unit. Parleys Diesel Performance sells both Autometer;  I am looking at the Autometer Z-Series with a mechanical boost and electric pyrometer and fuel gauges along with a 3-mount gauge pillar with speaker outlet. I would say it is high dollar with good quality but I am the novice here. I have decided to post pone my injector install until I have a complete set of gauges. I also need to buy a camcorder of some type to record the smoke issue if it still exists. I am going to talk to Brian at Dynomite and ask him to explain how he controlled the smoke by adjusting the injector I bought, maybe it will clear some things up and help somebody else that is as confused as me…of course I might be the only one on the Forum that is confused,  Just kidding. What do you think?

[Mopar1973Man]

The biggest part of electric gauges is to remote mount the senders off the engine. Fuel pressure much so. Boost can be installed on the engine.

 

 

It's not the vibration that kills the senders its the water hammer pulses that kill the fuel pressure senders. So with what I've got set up I've got roughly 5 foot of tubing for both sender to allow pulsations to fade and fuel pressure has a snubber at the tap source not at the sender. Mechanical gauges are simply the easiest and most durable gauge out there. Electrics are fairly easy to install but come with issues of there own. But being I read hundreds if not thousands of post of gauges and failures I compiled a method of install and went forward. So far gauges are working extremely well and going to get the ISSPro programming software next and set my warning lights for the gauges. Still in all the price is higher but modular design so if a gauge fails I only got to replace 1 gauge. 

 

[Greenlee]

The biggest part of electric gauges is to remote mount the senders off the engine. Fuel pressure much so. Boost can be installed on the engine.

 

DSCF2364.JPG

 

It's not the vibration that kills the senders its the water hammer pulses that kill the fuel pressure senders. So with what I've got set up I've got roughly 5 foot of tubing for both sender to allow pulsations to fade and fuel pressure has a snubber at the tap source not at the sender. Mechanical gauges are simply the easiest and most durable gauge out there. Electrics are fairly easy to install but come with issues of there own. But being I read hundreds if not thousands of post of gauges and failures I compiled a method of install and went forward. So far gauges are working extremely well and going to get the ISSPro programming software next and set my warning lights for the gauges. Still in all the price is higher but modular design so if a gauge fails I only got to replace 1 gauge. 

Sorry for the delay in answering or responding. I need to study this a little. I appreciate you explaining the way to hook up the fuel gauge properly and have good results. I'm going back to the drawing board to decide on all mechanical or electrically or both. Right now I don't know because as usual it gets complicated. I want to get it right and read a little more articles that you have written on this. Also i am going to write Brian at Dynomite Diesel for an explanation on what they do to adjust injectors with a history of their business to add to this thread. I feel that Dynomite has a quality product or I would not have paid what I did for the set of 75hp injectors. If I can get Brian to respond with some answers I will post them.

[Greenlee]

I have been out again for several weeks, going to Physical Therapy 3 times a week. I am still getting things in order to figure this out.

1. Looking for a small cheap Cam Recorder to video the back of my truck and the amount of smoke produced with the Premium Special X VP44 and stock injectors.
2. Figure out the mechanical gauges I am going to use, get them ordered and installed.
3. Put a report together showing Boost Pressure, Fuel Pressure, and EGT’s temperature.
4. Study any videos showing how to remove the old injectors, CLEAN the surrounding surface on the head.
5. Post Brian Bailey’s reply explaining what happened to an injector during install.
6. Make the right preparations to install the new injectors and connection tubes, find out if there is an order, seat the injector, and insert tube. Alternatively, seat injector and torque the holding plate then install the tubes.
7. Make another short video showing the results of the newly installed injectors and tubes.
8. Make Plans for the next step if there is still too much smoke. Perhaps the next size turbo would make a cleaner burn.  A new topic I need to study. I might throw the towel in and ask what direction to go in.

 

Brian Bailey, Injector Sales & Admin

Dynomite Diesel Products

13675 Roosevelt Rd SE

Monroe, WA 98272

P: 360-794-7974
F: 360-794-6890

I did ask Brian if he could share how injectors are tuned or adjusted provided the information was not a trade secret protected by the Company. This is what Brian wrote.

 

Hi Paul,

 

There are many ways we can change the characteristics of an injector and many of those are indeed trade secrets.  Also specifically referring to the smoke level of a given injector is very difficult to quantify because everyone’s tolerance to smoke is going to be very different.  This is subjective….   We try extremely hard to make our injectors as clean as possible and in general are known as having extremely clean injectors for their given power output.

 

As for your injectors we did find some minor contamination in the nozzle.  Specifically in the pintle seat area which would cause your complaint of excessive smoke/haze.  Based on what we saw it is most likely that the contamination was introduced during the install of the injectors.  Normally any contamination found is not covered under warranty but we decided to cover it for you.  We cleaned the injectors, replaced the nozzles, & confirmed the POP pressures were correct.

 

Hopefully this helps explain things further.

 

After reading this I realized contamination did happen. My son was doing the install, on # 5 cylinder he dropped the new injector in the hole causing it to angle to one side. I told him to pull it back out. The copper washer came off so I put more oil on the end and seated it in the bore. Then I pulled it back out and the washer was back on the nozzle where it should be. This little mishap could have easily caused the problem. I am sorry Brian could not reveal the methods used to work on injectors. I would also say Dynomite Diesel Performance was more than fair helping me. I offered to pay for the service provided but Dynomite Diesel would not consider any additional funds change hands. I could be completely off on the contamination so you can see why I want to know the correct way to remove and install injectors this time around. It would answer questions with the excessive black smoke or clear the issue up. I’m moving slow but I will get it all done ASAP.

[Mopar1973Man]

It's not the turbo which is going to make a cleaner burn but proper use of fuel management vs. boost. Like with stock injectors I could run 5x5 on the Edge Comp. Now with the +50hp injectors I've got to back down to 5x3 to control smoke. The difference is 3rd sublevel is 67% of stock fuel till 10 pounds of boost. Where 5th sublevel is full fuel at 0 boost.

There is other factors like IAT temperatures which will make it smoke more. Colder IAT typically is smoker where warmer air is cleaner burning.

[CTcummins24V]

Injectors have a lot to do with it. My 100hp injectors burn cleaner than 60s. I could belch a black cloud with the 60s. I have a harder time doing that with the 100s.

[diesel4life]

Injectors have a lot to do with it. My 100hp injectors burn cleaner than 60s. I could belch a black cloud with the 60s. I have a harder time doing that with the 100s.

Exactly. I dont think the VP is the culprit here especially since the problem showed up when the injectors were installed. There are different manufacturing processes for injectors, and some are more precise and consequently cleaner than others.

[Mopar1973Man]

Better the atomization the cleaner the burn. The bigger the droplets get the smokier and dirty the burn becomes. Less efficiency. The whole idea is to push as much fuel as you can in fog like atomization. But if the injector start to squirt in a stream then it turns out more smoky.

 

[Greenlee]

It's not the turbo which is going to make a cleaner burn but proper use of fuel management vs. boost. Like with stock injectors I could run 5x5 on the Edge Comp. Now with the +50hp injectors I've got to back down to 5x3 to control smoke. The difference is 3rd sublevel is 67% of stock fuel till 10 pounds of boost. Where 5th sublevel is full fuel at 0 boost.

There is other factors like IAT temperatures which will make it smoke more. Colder IAT typically is smoker where warmer air is cleaner burning.

I thought if you added a more efficient turbo to the equation that it would produce a higher volume of air and a denser volume of air to mix with the fuel for better ignition of fuel and air. So once again, my Cummins logic is on the seventh floor in a padded room. A cheap turbo would run about $1150.00, so like you suggested an Edge Tuner set on fuel only would be a better choice to manage the smoke.

[Greenlee]

Injectors have a lot to do with it. My 100hp injectors burn cleaner than 60s. I could belch a black cloud with the 60s. I have a harder time doing that with the 100s.

Are the 60hp injectors made by the same company as the 100hp injectors? This really has me confused now. Somebody set me straight on injectors please, If you take a stock injector and nozzle, take it apart, shim the spring tension so that it takes more fuel for it to pop off, wouldn't that increase horse power in an injector. I have read where companies hone the tip of the injectors, work the holes over a little, synchronizing the set together on pop off pressure and so on. I am just guessing on all of this but thinking it trough makes me wonder what's going on in the injector world. I wish somebody could shed some light on all of this without disclosing trade secrets.

[Greenlee]

Exactly. I dont think the VP is the culprit here especially since the problem showed up when the injectors were installed. There are different manufacturing processes for injectors, and some are more precise and consequently cleaner than others.

I need to find a cam recorder to show everyone how much the Special X VP44 does smoke, it's more than a little puff. Blue Chip expresses the bit about some smoke for any tree huggers that would be upset using a pump that is out of sync with global warming. I will work on this over the week end.

[Greenlee]

Better the atomization the cleaner the burn. The bigger the droplets get the smokier and dirty the burn becomes. Less efficiency. The whole idea is to push as much fuel as you can in fog like atomization. But if the injector start to squirt in a stream then it turns out more smoky.

 

This is a good picture explaining what an injector spray should look like. Dynomite did mention I had damaged one of the nozzles with contamination of some sort, especially in the pintle seat area. Give me an idea how this can happen, it would explain how sloppy I might have been during the install. Thanks

[CTcummins24V]

Are the 60hp injectors made by the same company as the 100hp injectors? This really has me confused now. Somebody set me straight on injectors please, If you take a stock injector and nozzle, take it apart, shim the spring tension so that it takes more fuel for it to pop off, wouldn't that increase horse power in an injector. I have read where companies hone the tip of the injectors, work the holes over a little, synchronizing the set together on pop off pressure and so on. I am just guessing on all of this but thinking it trough makes me wonder what's going on in the injector world. I wish somebody could shed some light on all of this without disclosing trade secrets.

 

No, different companies. This is all ball park, not gospel. There is better atomization of fuel with larger than stock nozzle orifices to a certain point, cost benefit analyses. Once you go over 100hp-125hp nozzles, you're throwing some decent fuel and probably can't burn all the fuel in the cylinder, even with a large turbo or sequential turbos. The fuel just won't break into small enough droplets/vaporize coming out of these larger holes. Spring has a lot to do with it too. For the best atomization, you want that injector to pop and spray that fuel as quick as possible for a complete burn. The quicker the injectors pops and shoots the fuel through the nozzles, the better the fuel vaporizes.  

 

When installing injectors, the tip/nozzle should never touch anything as even small contaminants can plug the nozzle orifice.The tip can also be damaged by coming into contact with say a cast iron cylinder head. The tip is finely tuned and wouldn't take much to damage it.

 

There are different grades of injectors, primarily how precise the manufacturer modifies the injector nozzle. Honing can be done to enlarge the nozzle and depending on how accurate the machine/operator are will determine the smoothness of the hole and spray pattern/angle. You should look at some up close pics online of nozzles. DDP is supposed to have one of the cleanest burning injectors. I've used DAP(diesel auto power) and DFI(ducky fuel injection) injectors and liked both of them.

 

The pintle needle could also be an issue. It sits against the inside of the nozzle. If either surface is worn or not making proper contact then fuel can drip or not spray properly. 

[CTcummins24V]

 

New clean injectors versus old gummed up injector

[Greenlee]

To: CTcummins24V

 

You had a good roll going on injectors, made good sense to me, I hope you can add some more information on the subject.

[rburks]

I thought if you added a more efficient turbo to the equation that it would produce a higher volume of air and a denser volume of air to mix with the fuel for better ignition of fuel and air. So once again, my Cummins logic is on the seventh floor in a padded room. A cheap turbo would run about $1150.00, so like you suggested an Edge Tuner set on fuel only would be a better choice to manage the smoke.

ACTUALLY A bigger turbo could make it worse especially on the low end with with IAT and boost fooled.. 

[rburks]

No, different companies. This is all ball park, not gospel. There is better atomization of fuel with larger than stock nozzle orifices to a certain point, cost benefit analyses. Once you go over 100hp-125hp nozzles, you're throwing some decent fuel and probably can't burn all the fuel in the cylinder, even with a large turbo or sequential turbos. The fuel just won't break into small enough droplets/vaporize coming out of these larger holes. Spring has a lot to do with it too. For the best atomization, you want that injector to pop and spray that fuel as quick as possible for a complete burn. The quicker the injectors pops and shoots the fuel through the nozzles, the better the fuel vaporizes.  

 

When installing injectors, the tip/nozzle should never touch anything as even small contaminants can plug the nozzle orifice.The tip can also be damaged by coming into contact with say a cast iron cylinder head. The tip is finely tuned and wouldn't take much to damage it.

 

There are different grades of injectors, primarily how precise the manufacturer modifies the injector nozzle. Honing can be done to enlarge the nozzle and depending on how accurate the machine/operator are will determine the smoothness of the hole and spray pattern/angle. You should look at some up close pics online of nozzles. DDP is supposed to have one of the cleanest burning injectors. I've used DAP(diesel auto power) and DFI(ducky fuel injection) injectors and liked both of them.

 

The pintle needle could also be an issue. It sits against the inside of the nozzle. If either surface is worn or not making proper contact then fuel can drip or not spray properly. 

 

      NO, the bigger injectors are harder to atomize especially +100 and up. they get more power cause they flow more fuel cause they open the holes in the oOEM nozzles, this increase's flow but decreases pressure, sure the good companies have been able to increase the pressure bact to or close to spec by shimming and modifying the seats but theres only so much adjustment there.

DDP [Atleast on the 40-50-60hp} keep the same size holes but increase the number of holes help keeping the pressure up with better atomization and they change the spray pattern to there custom design. 

[Mopar1973Man]

I thought if you added a more efficient turbo to the equation that it would produce a higher volume of air and a denser volume of air to mix with the fuel for better ignition of fuel and air. So once again, my Cummins logic is on the seventh floor in a padded room. A cheap turbo would run about $1150.00, so like you suggested an Edge Tuner set on fuel only would be a better choice to manage the smoke.

 

Turbo won't do any good unless you drive with your foot in the carpet. Like my truck cruising at 55 MPH I'm 1-2 PSI of boost may 3-4 PSI boost at 65 MPH. Bigger turbo will just add more lag time and more smoke. What you need is to limit the fuel till the turbo lights up. So technically I'm running 170 HP injector but actually running 120 HP tuner on top of 50hp injectors. But since the tuner gives me fuel vs. boost management I can control smoke levels.

 

Are the 60hp injectors made by the same company as the 100hp injectors? This really has me confused now. Somebody set me straight on injectors please, If you take a stock injector and nozzle, take it apart, shim the spring tension so that it takes more fuel for it to pop off, wouldn't that increase horse power in an injector. I have read where companies hone the tip of the injectors, work the holes over a little, synchronizing the set together on pop off pressure and so on. I am just guessing on all of this but thinking it trough makes me wonder what's going on in the injector world. I wish somebody could shed some light on all of this without disclosing trade secrets.

 

When injector nozzle are created they can produce the hole all different ways. Some methods leave the holes rather jagged and rough which makes for poor atomization like Edge Jammers are known for being really smoky injectors. Where other injectors cost more because the holes are honed out and smoothed so the spray pattern is better quality. 

 

I need to find a cam recorder to show everyone how much the Special X VP44 does smoke, it's more than a little puff. Blue Chip expresses the bit about some smoke for any tree huggers that would be upset using a pump that is out of sync with global warming. I will work on this over the week end.

 

Now if you have a boost gauge I would monitor at the point that boost hits and it clears up. This would give you a clue to what setting you would need to use for a module to clean up the smoke.

 

This is a good picture explaining what an injector spray should look like. Dynomite did mention I had damaged one of the nozzles with contamination of some sort, especially in the pintle seat area. Give me an idea how this can happen, it would explain how sloppy I might have been during the install. Thanks

 

As for internal damage to the pintle would be caused from dirt fuel and/or poor quality filers. If there is no debris in the fuel it should wear out technically unless you using a lot of cetane booster and injector cleaners.

 

Here is a basic view of our injectors... The only thing about that picture is our injectors get fuel from the side of the body not the top. 12V are this way...

[Greenlee]

ACTUALLY A bigger turbo could make it worse especially on the low end with with IAT and boost fooled.. 

I appreciate your input on this subject, are there any books that explain what's going on with a turbo from idle to WOT, or magazine articles, or posts that would help me understand what the old breed is preaching? I want to get it right and be able to pass it on when needed. What about a manual on injectors or a book on injectors and so forth? I think you all should get together compare notes and piece a users manual together for beginners. With me the fog will lift momentarily and then settle back down again. But this is the only apparent way I can learn what a Cummins Diesel should act like with modifications and/or improvements.