Ok Gang...I've got a for sure way to diagnose torque converter lock up issues where it lock and unlocks at about 45-50 MPH. I had a gent call me yesterday with this problem and he's replace both batteries, alternator and the APPS sensor. Attempted all the different wiring issues (adding ground, tinfoil etc.) nothing worked. Like I told him the truck ran 11 years without all this stuff and doesn't require any wiring change to make it work. What it needs is the damaged part to be replaced. So he's returned the wiring back to stock setup.Now I told him to unhook the alternator fuse and take it for a ride... Guess what... No problems! Even though he replaced the alternator it has a damaged diode in it and it bleeding AC noise into the electrical system.So before doing any wiring mods, tinfoil, adding grounds, adding filter... PLEASE! Bench test your alternator! This is the second time I've suggested this and both time resolved the torque converter lock up issue.

Here is a for pictures for battery terminals.

Here is a complete fail!

Here is my own truck.

I'm seeing more and more people just neglecting the terminals and wondering why alternator issues or TQ lock up issues.

Edited December 23, 20159 yr by Mopar1973Man

Heres my engine bay, i wipe it down every week, it looks like it rolled off the adsembly line.. So ive ruled dirt out of the equation

3 minutes ago, Vais01 said:

So prey do tell how one goes about relocating the battery.

You may have heard of a company called Pusher intakes? Well their shop is about 45 min from where i live and I personally got a test kit from the owner.. Kit inclued everything needed to relocate.. For some reason theyve never released the kit on their site... But i love it!

1 hour ago, Redfishin321 said:

Heres my engine bay, i wipe it down every week, it looks like it rolled off the adsembly line.. So ive ruled dirt out of the equation

You may have heard of a company called Pusher intakes? Well their shop is about 45 min from where i live and I personally got a test kit from the owner.. Kit inclued everything needed to relocate.. For some reason theyve never released the kit on their site... But i love it!

Yes I know pusher. I wish I could do this to my truck. It would help with the cab noise.

On May 26, 2012 at 7:56 AM, Mopar1973Man said:

Ok Gang...I've got a for sure way to diagnose torque converter lock up issues where it lock and unlocks at about 45-50 MPH. I had a gent call me yesterday with this problem and he's replace both batteries, alternator and the APPS sensor. Attempted all the different wiring issues (adding ground, tinfoil etc.) nothing worked. Like I told him the truck ran 11 years without all this stuff and doesn't require any wiring change to make it work. What it needs is the damaged part to be replaced. So he's returned the wiring back to stock setup.Now I told him to unhook the alternator fuse and take it for a ride... Guess what... No problems! Even though he replaced the alternator it has a damaged diode in it and it bleeding AC noise into the electrical system.So before doing any wiring mods, tinfoil, adding grounds, adding filter... PLEASE! Bench test your alternator! This is the second time I've suggested this and both time resolved the torque converter lock up issue.

You mean wearing a tinfoil hat won't fix it? That was high on my list of things to try.?

We should probably be thankful that the a/c ripple causes a noticeable effect. Since it can have a ripple effect into so many other things...ECM, PCM, VP problems and even trashing them. Using a go around to the problem is a sure way to spend a lot of money on other stuff. 

Edited December 23, 20159 yr by joecool911

Man, you have no idea how much of up hill battle it is with tinfoil, grounds and relocation of grounds. Over on CF its a never ending battle of goffy people still listening to that same old stupid idea tinfoil fixes torque converter problems.

When you pull the fuse is it necessary to pull the hot lead off of the alternator.  Seems I remember some folks saying you had to do both.

Just now, dripley said:

When you pull the fuse is it necessary to pull the hot lead off of the alternator.  Seems I remember some folks saying you had to do both.

Suggested to do both then there is no generatio of power anywhere.

I have been fighting an apps issue, it started with a TC lock /unlock issue and has escalated to a throttle surging issue. 

I checked the grounds and was getting  erratic readings on my scan tool from the apps with the key on and engine off.  I figured the apps was bad so I replaced it with no effect. 

I've read through this thread and tried testing my ac voltage and am getting 30 volts! The alternator is also humming/buzzing with the key on ,engine off. 

I'm pretty sure my alternator is at fault but what's throwing me is unhooking the alternator fuse doesn't change anything. 

Truck is an 01 3500 auto 4x4 with a quad adrenalin. 

Because your DVM is poor quality. It should be down around millivolt levels. So this means you current DVM does NOT have a setting down to say 2V AC or 200mV AC levels.

Yes the lowest setting it has its 200v. I was hoping it would give me a ballpark idea since it has a decimal and another zero but it doesn't look that way. I may have to pick up a better one to check further. 

 

Any idea on the humming coming from the alternator with the key on? It never did that before, it goes away if you unhook the voltage regulator wires from the back of it. 

Edited December 26, 20159 yr by kc8ksg

I reread this thread to see if I missed anything and apparently I missed others having the 30v problem with cheap multimeters, sorry about that.

I checked all the grounds again and and reset the apps for the 3rd time while I had everything disconnected. 

No change, so I removed the alternator fuse and the voltage regulator wires from the back of it and still no change. 

Idling and light load it's fine, anything above 20% throttle and it gets worse. 

If you watch the throttle on the scan tool it's all over the place when it's surging. 

Eliminating the alternator from the circuit "should"  rule it out I would think? 

It also started today with my oil pressure dropping suddenly when it's doing it's surging the worst, idling or light throttle oil pressure gauge is fine. It leads me more to think it's a ground issue, but all the terminals are sanded and tight. 

Is your temp gauge acting up also?

No, only oil pressure, and on the last test drive I got a p0237 code, not sure a map problem would cause a torque converter /od issue so I'm leaning towards that is just because of my other problems. 

Oil pressure senders have been known to fail.

P0237 is exactly what it is a lo volt code for the MAP sensor. Won't have any bearing on the transmission.

http://articles.mopar1973man.com/2nd-generation-24v-dodge-cummins/59-obdii-error-codes-cummins/167-p0237-map-sensor-voltage-too-low

Speed sensor in the transmission good?

1 hour ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Oil pressure senders have been known to fail.

P0237 is exactly what it is a lo volt code for the MAP sensor. Won't have any bearing on the transmission.

http://articles.mopar1973man.com/2nd-generation-24v-dodge-cummins/59-obdii-error-codes-cummins/167-p0237-map-sensor-voltage-too-low

Speed sensor in the transmission good?

I'd agree that sensors fail, however how fast all the problems arose is what has me scratching my head thinking that they may be related. 

This has only been going on for about 100 miles, and 30 of that has been troubleshooting test miles.

I read your article on the map sensor testing but my scan tool won't read the map sensor data on my truck so I can't do much testing until I find someone with a better scan tool. 

As for the trans speed sensor, I haven't messed with it, no codes other than the map sensor one. 

My problem seems to be consistent with what I'm reading with people having a bad ground or alternator, apps etc... 

The scanner showing the throttle jumping all over while cruising and not moving my foot, tells me something is interfering with the apps signal or ecm, which would cause the erratic tc/od issues. 

Am I correct in thinking by removing the alternator fuse and regulator wires from the back it should rule out that as the problem? 

Also I have a tc lockup switch and when it acts up if I lock it the tc stays locked but throttle is still all over the place. That doesn't really help much but I figured I'd throw that out there.  

Edited December 27, 20159 yr by kc8ksg

 

The above is the 3 phase rectifier bridge in the alternator. The green waveform is what you would see on an oscilloscope with no battery (or capacitance)  . ie. the battery tends to store energy (voltage x current x time) between peaks which is why it is so important to have a good battery and good connection to lessen that AC ripple to Michael's 0.01 VAC.   When doing this test it is important there is no big loads on the electrical system like grid heaters or headlights etc.  The true measurement would be an oscilloscope waveform  to diagnose the diodes since a bad(open)  diodes makes one of the  "1,2, or 3" waveforms  go to zero. If the diode is shorted then it is worse as  the voltage goes negative but heat usually burns it up and it fails open eventually. The problem is that this AC   waveform eventually ends up on every point of ground resistance within the engine bay. That it is one reason it gets worse with age - rust. Mopars biggest mistake was not making the APPS input amplifier a "differential amplifier"  with the ground noise cancelling out automatically (via subtraction as noise on two +- signals is identical as long as it is a twisted pair).  They started doing that  with new design in mid 2000's as I have seen two APPS right at the pedal and they do a subtraction of the two  signals.  I get away with a low pass filter of a capacitor and resistor to ground but everyone's situation may be different depending on ground rust and alternator condition.  I also  have a switch to disable lockup at any time which is good for saving wear and tear on lockup disk in the flat city driving and  even though filter is adequate. I use a relay to open the lockup solenoid and and switch a resistor in instead -  just to fool the PCM into thinking it is still a connected circuit and avoid limp mode on the tranny.

 

Edited December 27, 20159 yr by balsip

Again... Why is my 1996 Dodge 1500 with a 46re transmission still running fine and without issues of TQ converter lock up? Same alternator, same PCM software, no issues. It's about the alternator, cables and battery condition. Even I got stung on the ABS module when the alternator failed not a diode but the rear bearing and brushes.

38 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Again... Why is my 1996 Dodge 1500 with a 46re transmission still running fine and without issues of TQ converter lock up? Same alternator, same PCM software, no issues. It's about the alternator, cables and battery condition. Even I got stung on the ABS module when the alternator failed not a diode but the rear bearing and brushes.

I took a look at that 1996 gasser wiring diagram and was surprised there is same type TPS (throttle position sensor) but PCM does all functions of ECM diesel as well as tranny.   PCM gets the TPS and fires the fuel injectors as banks of three or four (6 and 8 cyl.). Generator capacity and currents are probably half the that  of a diesel though so ground resistance drops are less I would guess.  Bet Mopar redesigned  this from "single ended" to "differential  noise cancellation"  in later designs as well, like the diesel.

Hang on a sec.

ECM has zero to do with transmission lock up. The PCM is the sole controller in both the gas and diesel engines. As for the TPS vs APPS they are both the same as a 3 pin rheostat providing a 0-5 Volt signal. As for the extra 3 pin s that just the idle validation again has nothing to do with PCM functions. Both the 96 and 02 trucks both have 140 amp alternators no different just the field terminals are nutted on instead of a plug. Same charging system from 1994 to 2002. Never changed from the gas or diesel.

So no that leads back to the same thing why is it that I gone all these years without a lock up issues? Simple the alternator noise is low and the battery cables are kept up. No huge design secret...

6 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Hang on a sec.

ECM has zero to do with transmission lock up. The PCM is the sole controller in both the gas and diesel engines. As for the TPS vs APPS they are both the same as a 3 pin rheostat providing a 0-5 Volt signal. As for the extra 3 pin s that just the idle validation again has nothing to do with PCM functions. Both the 96 and 02 trucks both have 140 amp alternators no different just the field terminals are nutted on instead of a plug. Same charging system from 1994 to 2002. Never changed from the gas or diesel.

So no that leads back to the same thing why is it that I gone all these years without a lock up issues? Simple the alternator noise is low and the battery cables are kept up. No huge design secret...

Ah Yes,  there is a difference.  The ECM on the diesel is directly connected to the APPS wiper on pin 25.   Now note Pin 28 of the 50 pin ECM    is an analogue OUT signal sent to pin 23 on the C1 connector on the PCM which is an analogue input  which affects the 47RE shifting/lockup software.  See wiring diagram 8W-30-39 in the 1999 FSM. In the gasser, the  APPS is wired directly to the PCM and it functionally takes care of both engine power and transmission shifting with no need for the AO to AI connection  ECM to PCM.  CAN II Bus is too slow for software passing of this parameter - requires about 1/10  of a second updating response time.  Cummins was responsible for all EPA certifications on the diesel while Mopar certifies  their own  gassers hence no ECM on the gas engines.

The newer APPS in the redesigned  6.7 L has two APPS.  Interestingly one puts out 1/2 the voltage of the other so that when they are subtracted you get 1/2 APPS Position. Just add one more bit to the A/D converter and you get the lost  resolution back. I assume they are doing it this way to eliminate need for a negative voltage power supply which is the most unreliable component in a computer board due to electrolytic capacitors in a regulator circuit.

6 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Hang on a sec.

ECM has zero to do with transmission lock up. The PCM is the sole controller in both the gas and diesel engines. As for the TPS vs APPS they are both the same as a 3 pin rheostat providing a 0-5 Volt signal. As for the extra 3 pin s that just the idle validation again has nothing to do with PCM functions. Both the 96 and 02 trucks both have 140 amp alternators no different just the field terminals are nutted on instead of a plug. Same charging system from 1994 to 2002. Never changed from the gas or diesel.

So no that leads back to the same thing why is it that I gone all these years without a lock up issues? Simple the alternator noise is low and the battery cables are kept up. No huge design secret...

Ah Yes,  there is a difference.  The ECM on the diesel is directly connected to the APPS wiper on pin 25.   Now note Pin 28 of the 50 pin ECM    is an analogue OUT signal sent to pin 23 on the C1 connector on the PCM which is an analogue input  which affects the 47RE shifting/lockup software.  See wiring diagram 8W-30-39 in the 1999 FSM. In the gasser, the  APPS is wired directly to the PCM and it functionally takes care of both engine power and transmission shifting with no need for the AO to AI connection  ECM to PCM. CAN II Bus is too slow for software passing of this parameter - requires about 1/10  of a second updating response time.  Cummins was responsible for all EPA certifications on the diesel while Mopar certifies  their own  gassers hence no separate ECM on the gas engines.

Functionally, this signal is exactly equivalent to the kick down cable that used to go to the transmission modulator lever in a mostly  mechanical  transmissions like the 618A or 47RH transmission. Our 47RE uses mechanical cable for gears 1 to 3 and computer  software for  gear 4 and TC lockup so I guess you would call it a hybrid.  Dodge was always 20 years behind on this stuff but the transmission was reliable.

  The newer APPS pedal in the redesigned  6.7 L has two APPS.  Interestingly one puts out 1/2 the voltage of the other so that when they are subtracted you get 1/2 APPS Position. Just add one more bit to the A/D converter and you get the lost  resolution back. I assume they are doing it this way to eliminate need for a negative voltage power supply which is the most unreliable component in a computer board due to electrolytic capacitors in a regulator circuit.  Cheaper than Military grade components I guess.

Does this make sense?

Edited December 28, 20159 yr by balsip
I do not know how to get rid of my other replies above