From 24 valve to 12 valve

[Greenlee]

Yes, but there is a new product that's about to hit the market, and I think it's worth waiting for.

I don't mind waiting do you have any information I can check out? Do you leave your engine stock and add this device?

[98whitelightnin]

I think they called it AFC Live, it's the newest thing floating around for 12v.

[Greenlee]

I think they called it AFC Live, it's the newest thing floating around for 12v.

I have been searching our Forum and the internet for any news on the 12v, do you have any recommendations or links that you use? I just ran into a snag with my new truck, the VIN indicates a 98 V10 diesel according to the bank I use. Just wanted them to check it out for me, and the tag on the door shows it's a 1997. I know the previous owner buys deals, body damage, bad transmissions, etc. I didn't think to ask him about this trucks history. What a screw up on my part. I'll get with you latter, I'm going to check AFC out.

[Cowboy]

all 98 12 valves were manufactured in 97.  1/1/98 the emission requirements took place which the 12 valve couldn't meet, hence the need for the 24 valves.

 

You can check the vin on the core support, dash, and door sticker and make sure they are all the same.

 

You can also decipher the Vin yourself.

http://dodgeram.org/tech/specs/VIN_decode.htm

http://dodgeforum.com/forum/vindecoder.php

[Greenlee]

all 98 12 valves were manufactured in 97.  1/1/98 the emission requirements took place which the 12 valve couldn't meet, hence the need for the 24 valves.

 

You can check the vin on the core support, dash, and door sticker and make sure they are all the same.

 

You can also decipher the Vin yourself.

http://dodgeram.org/tech/specs/VIN_decode.htm

http://dodgeforum.com/forum/vindecoder.php

Man this is great, I'll check it out, if I have a pieced together truck there is nothing that can be done now except cause issues. It won't be that easy to sell it based on the VIN

[Greenlee]

I picked up a U-Haul , 5 x 9 to finish up clearing out the rental house we were at and give it back to the Landlord. My truck will run at the 190 degree mark until I stop for a few minutes which pushes the temperature up below the red. The radiator looks good with no sigh of leaks. My 24 valve stayed at one stop regardless of what you were pulling or sitting still. It was a 5 speed. My 12v is automatic, any ideas on what I should be looking for? I also was looking at the same upgrade which is on the market now called AFC. I contacted them hoping to find out if this product is workable for a 12v that is stock or has an injector upgrade. I can tell you getting into interstate traffic takes a while to get up to speed, no down shifting which surprised me. There are a lot of little things to get used to. I don't want to boil tires blending into traffic but there has to be a solution to pick up speed more efficiently. I think the shutter is in the Torque Converter but for sure in the transmission. It doesn't surprise me with all the issues around automatics. The previous owner might have put a shift kit in but I don't think he would spend any extra on parts if he didn't have to. This was a towing truck that pulled his 5th wheel from Mississippi to Orange beach AL. It served it's purpose. Are the blocks similar between the 12v and 24v with the exception of the cam to run the injection pump? Are there any 24v parts that work on a 12v?

 

One last thing, my brother has moved close to West Columbia S.C. and needs a good diesel shop to take his truck to. Where should I post this question to get the word out?

[Cowboy]

The 24 valve temp gauges are more like a dummy light, but it sounds like your truck could use a radiator flush.  

 

Maybe you had a typo, but your truck already has an AFC.  If you want more get up and go, I'd be looking into a new TC, because the stock ones are ~60% efficient instead of ~90% and has to high of a stall speed.  I'd also look into a 4k GSK, it will also work well with your stock TC.  It lets the engine rev higher without defueling, an automatic defuels around 2300-2500.  Besides those, you have a lot of power capability on tap just by tuning the fuel plate / AFC.  The fuel plate is like your max fuel limiter, by sliding it back, it lets the IP pump more fuel into the engine.  You can also swap out plate profiles to change the fueling rate in relation to RPM.  As you can see in THIS picture, different plates have different profiles.  The arm that rides the plate rides higher up on the plate at higher RPM's.  So you can change the fueling rate at different RPM's with different plate profiles, you can also take a stock plate and grind your own.  The mounting holes are slotted so you can slide it around to get the max fueling you desire.

 

 

 

There are a couple parts that will swap between the 24V and 12V, the block doesn't have the hole for the lift pump, and the cam doesn't have the lobe for it either.

[Greenlee]

The 24 valve temp gauges are more like a dummy light, but it sounds like your truck could use a radiator flush.  

 

Maybe you had a typo, but your truck already has an AFC.  If you want more get up and go, I'd be looking into a new TC, because the stock ones are ~60% efficient instead of ~90% and has to high of a stall speed.  I'd also look into a 4k GSK, it will also work well with your stock TC.  It lets the engine rev higher without defueling, an automatic defuels around 2300-2500.  Besides those, you have a lot of power capability on tap just by tuning the fuel plate / AFC.  The fuel plate is like your max fuel limiter, by sliding it back, it lets the IP pump more fuel into the engine.  You can also swap out plate profiles to change the fueling rate in relation to RPM.  As you can see in THIS picture, different plates have different profiles.  The arm that rides the plate rides higher up on the plate at higher RPM's.  So you can change the fueling rate at different RPM's with different plate profiles, you can also take a stock plate and grind your own.  The mounting holes are slotted so you can slide it around to get the max fueling you desire.

 

 

 

 

There are a couple parts that will swap between the 24V and 12V, the block doesn't have the hole for the lift pump, and the cam doesn't have the lobe for it either.

I think you are right on the radiator. The little U-Haul trailer I have been pulling around for 3 days didn't seem to bother the 12v but for some reason it sounds like the engine is louder and I now have an oil leak under the front. Temperature stayed just below the 190 mark while driving but you could not run long sitting still, 7 to 10 minutes would have it going past the 190. When I mentioned the AFC (http://powerdrivendiesel.com) it's what they named the new product. AFC Live Stage 1 is $225, Stage 2 is $295 and Live Race $315 shipments starting on 07/17/15. I don't know if you can use the AFC Stage 1 on a stock truck or you need to add some upgrades. I've got a lot to learn. I'm going to jump on the radiator and flush it out. Looks like a good product to use, the SuperFlush

[98whitelightnin]

Power driven diesel is who i saw had this but it must not be the same product I was thinking of because the one I am talking about is upwards of $600 unless power driven made some cheaper. Power drivens web site has been down for maintenance but give them a call, I have a set of their delivery valves in my 95 and I talked to him on the phone before placing my order. He seemed like a good guy.

Edited July 17, 2015 by 98whitelightnin

[bjytech]

Power driven diesel is who i saw had this but it must not be the same product I was thinking of because the one I am talking about is upwards of $600 unless power driven made some cheaper. Power drivens web site has been down for maintenance but give them a call, I have a set of their delivery valves in my 95 and I talked to him on the phone before placing my order. He seemed like a good guy.

I think you are thinking of the "attitude adjuster" from Attitude performance products.

[Cowboy]

The AFC Live is a good product, however it doesn't "give" you power per say, it just lets you adjust the power output from inside the cab.  It will work with any injector/turbo combo.  The 24 valves are good if you want to throw a tuner on it and go.  With the 12 valves you have to fiddle with the adjustments to get it right.  Now it's not 100% slam dunk.  The '99 just got a tuner and has decent power, the '96, just by playing with adjustments pulls better than the '99.  Now that's because I've fiddled with the adjustments finding the sweet spots, and I'm by no means done.  However trying to make it comparable with the 99 would have been fairly easy.  And I'm not just referring to the max power output, but also the spool RPM.

 

On your truck, there should be an "OD off" button right above the radio, that will help with slower cruising, hauling, and merging in traffic.  What it does is force the tranny into 3rd and lock the TC.

[Greenlee]

all 98 12 valves were manufactured in 97.  1/1/98 the emission requirements took place which the 12 valve couldn't meet, hence the need for the 24 valves.

 

You can check the vin on the core support, dash, and door sticker and make sure they are all the same.

 

You can also decipher the Vin yourself.

http://dodgeram.org/tech/specs/VIN_decode.htm

http://dodgeforum.com/forum/vindecoder.php

Hey, I checked my VIN by using the information in the top link. When I went to the bank to have it read, they made a mistake on the engine code according to year. There are two parts when looking at the engines, 8th digit...1994-97 & 1998+. I don't see how they missed it but they did. Made me feel better thinking I had a title with screwed up numbers and how I would explain this if I resold it. Thanks Cowboy

[Greenlee]

So this is where I am at with my 12v. It seems to drive better every day. the radiator temperature that was running a 1/4" below the red is staying at 190 and just below that. It is down shifting at lower speeds. Mileage sucks first tank got 14.87 MPG. I added 2 cycle oil to the fuel, what a difference in sound and performance. I need to order the tools to check the static timing, I also need to put gauges on to cover all the critical areas that need to be monitored. I don't know if I am up to check the KDP or sub it out. I can't find any instructions showing what you have to take off to begin and the steps following to get the job done. Does the radiator and front grill all need to removed? any body know if there are steps listed on increasing power on a 12v without breaking the bank or creating a disaster?

[bjytech]

For the KDP I take the fan off at the mount on the engine (four 10mm bolts) save the one behind the pulley for last as the fan will have to move out as the bolt comes out. Then take the bolts out of the fan shroud and pull the fan and shroud up out(put cardboard or something between the fan and radiator first). once that is out of the way you get a nice amount of room to remove the damper and front cover.

[Greenlee]

For the KDP I take the fan off at the mount on the engine (four 10mm bolts) save the one behind the pulley for last as the fan will have to move out as the bolt comes out. Then take the bolts out of the fan shroud and pull the fan and shroud up out(put cardboard or something between the fan and radiator first). once that is out of the way you get a nice amount of room to remove the damper and front cover.

That sounds better than what I had planned. I thought the front end would have to be removed. Thanks for sharing that info. I have two stories to share with everyone reading this post. When I was at U-Haul renting a trailer a young man working there ask me how much for my truck, of course I told him it wasn't for sale. He had already saved up $8K towards a purchase. We talked about the 12v and 24v for some time before I left. I told him I would help him find one. On one of his search's he found a loaded 99 SLT Laramine somewhere in LA. and took off after it. I looked at it yesterday. All options, leather, power seats, and so forth. He paid $5K for it. Automatic and runs like a champ. Brock has no clue what he is dealing with but wants to learn it all. For his age he is a very mature and responsible young man who I intend to introduce to our Forum. What a great deal.

 

Now this one has nothing to do with Cummins but it was a great story to tell for anyone who owns a FORD Bronco. I pulled into Lowes with a good looking Ford Bronco behind me. He parked in front of my truck. I passed him in Lowes and asked him how many offers he had on the Bronco? An older man than me he just laughed and said too many to count. I started to walk off and he said don't you want to hear the rest of the story, I said sure. He's a farmer and was looking to buy some cows in MS from another farmer. While there they passed through a garage and the Bronco was sitting there covered with dust. He asked what are you going to do with the Bronco and the other old farmer said "That SOB doesn't run it junk to me" How much you want for it? I'll take $5.00 if you can drive it out of here. You got a deal. Now the Bronco was on blocks with no tires. He open the hood and could see the battery was shot so he got one out of his truck to jump it off. Told his friend who road with him to turn it over. Wouldn't start. Pulled the air cleaner off, you could see through it, checked the oil and it was pitch black. So with the air filter out they tried again to crank it. A few turns on the engine and it came to life. Not bad for a Bronco with only 53,000 miles on it. The owner said "how in the world did you do that" the new owner said "just lucky". No regrets on the old farmer that owned it, he wanted it gone and never figured it would crank anyway. The old farmer that first owned it laughed as he wrote a bill of sale. I don't remember the name of the older farmer I spoke with at Lowes but he said he put another $1,600.00 in wheels and tires in it before he drove it off. When he got on the road the transmission wouldn't shift out of 2nd gear so he called another old friend that had a transmission shop who asked if he could make it to his place. While only in second he claimed it wasn't it didn't turn too many RPMs at 50 MPH. You know old farmer and friends are like member on a Diesel Forum, they help one another only with different interest. So here's another old friend with a transmission shop looking at it. He said put it in gear and looked at it and then told one of his employees something and turned to the Bronco owner nothing a new transmission won't fix, come on let's get a cup of coffee and talk about it so they walked off together to his office for coffee. He was almost at the bottom of the cup when his employee came back. He turned to his old farmer friend and said are you ready to drive your Bronco home? The reply was "What?" you told me I needed a new transmission! His transmission friend laughed and said I had to do this to you, first time you couldn't fix something on your own. It turned out to be a rotten vacuum line that helps shift the transmission. This $5.00 barn find has been showed at many meets around the country, in magazines, and on TV including one meet in Oshkosh, WI. I asked him what was his highest offer, he replied $19,000 and he has put over 20,000 miles on it since he found it. He said he puts a short story up at meets explaining the Bronco's past. I guess I talked with him for about 15 minutes but I enjoyed everything he shared.

 

This might be in the wrong place as far as the Forum goes but I had to share it, a great story that would have sounded better if the old farmer told it instead of me.

[Greenlee]

I noticed a huge difference between my 24v and my current 12v. The 12v sits lower, has a softer ride, and is much quieter than the 24v. At 70 MPH I am turning approximately 2000 RPMs. Can't get over the mileage but that might change since I added some 2 cycle oil to the fuel. I guess the next step for me is to check the integrity of my 12v engine. I have a small oil leak, I don't know the last time the all the fluids were changed from the rear end back. Since I have 229,000 miles on the clock I wonder what oil I should plan on using and transmission oil. Do I need to pull the water pump off and replace it with a new one and is the factory Mopar brands what I should stick to? Trying to figure out what needs replacing or wait until I have a failure and then worry about it. What brand or type of engine paint is good for touching up the injector lines, and the P7100. The exhaust manifold is nothing but rust and doesn't look very efficient for exhaust flow, any recommendations. Also the stock lift pump, I am amazed how well the stock lift pump works compared to the 24v. The fuel pressure psi from such a little pump is also amazing. Are there any after market 12v pumps that are made to fit and replace the stock lift pump that work better? I might be repeating some of my original questions but everything is sinking in. Right now I should stop guessing what to address first and get the gauges going and installed. The question of all mechanical or electronic or a combination of both types. Do I need to mount the sending units off the engine the same as recommended on the 24 valves? Do I need an additional transmission cooler mounted under the bed to help with cooling?

 

Am i looking at salvage yards for interior parts? I would like to install electric seats somewhere down the road making my 12v look like Papaws old ride and since I use a cane anyway I could get away with it smoking any rice burners that get too close lol. Well, that might not happen but I do have some goals. By the way here is the contact for the AFC Live Stages I through III and Full Race. I conversed with Will Terry by email, he was very helpful with his products. If you haven't watched the videos PDD has 3 now that are worth watching. Here is an email from Terry that gives a short description on the products.

 

Paul,

I apologize for the late response to your comment you sent to the website.  First off, thank you for your interest and taking the time to type out your questions and concerns.  With regard to your current 12 valve, it sounds like you have a solid combination to work with.  In our experience, a fresh (less than 50k mile) transmission with a shift kit is capable of handling around 425 HP at the rear tires, if the converter was also upgraded, you can stretch that to almost 500 HP to the tires.  With those assumptions, you can pretty much add enough fuel to max out your stock turbo before worrying about the transmission.  Around 425 HP is the max we see from the factory HX35 when pushed to around 42psi boost.  The stock turbo doesn’t last long at that power level so if you’re looking for a long-term reliable setup, you should shoot for 375 HP max with occasional 400 HP blasts (for fun)… 

 

If you were to install AFC LIVE stage 1 and follow the instructions for AFC modifications, removing the stock fuel plate, etc. you’d end up somewhere in the neighborhood of 325 to 340 RWHP up 155HP roughly from the factory 170 or so to the tire.  This max power can be turned down with the power knob back to below stock if you turned the knob down that far….  To get that extra 50 HP to reach the 375+ HP goal, a mild set of our Budget Builder Injectors or Power Driven Injectors would be a nice combination.  We custom build all of our injectors in-house and stock the components for most sizes so lead time is just one to two business days for injectors.   XXXXXX XXXXX (I removed the vendor name since this was addressed to me, Greenlee) produces a fairly high quality injector from the sets we’ve worked on, tuned up, or modified but obviously we feel we offer a better product.  Our more premium Power Driven line of injectors are made with high-end components and give you the option of the standard quality Italian steel based nozzle that is then EDM’d here in the USA to the various sizes or the upgraded Bosch based nozzle that is also EDM’d here in the USA.  (Bosch nozzles come from Germany, Brazil, Italy, etc. depends on the nozzle type).  For your truck, I’d either recommend our Budget Builder 5x011” sac injectors or our Power Driven 5x012” Italian steel sac injectors.  If you’re the type of person that only want’s name brand products, then select the extra $100 option for the Bosch based Power Driven Injectors.

 

Will Terry,

 

Power Driven Diesel

660 N. 800 W.

Cedar City, UT 84721

(435)962-9555

www.powerdrivendiesel.com

 

There is a considerable gain in HP for using the Stage 1 according to Power Driven Diesel. Check it out and get back with me on what you all think about it and the price.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Greenlee

[Cowboy]

I'll be back on later, but here is a link that you may find useful.  http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/94-98-performance-parts-discussion/1710706-afc-live-has-arrived-beginning-new-era.html

 

If you're going to email him back, ask him about GSK's I'm surprised he didn't mention anything about them.

[Greenlee]

I'll be back on later, but here is a link that you may find useful.  http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/94-98-performance-parts-discussion/1710706-afc-live-has-arrived-beginning-new-era.html

 

If you're going to email him back, ask him about GSK's I'm surprised he didn't mention anything about them.

Yep I'll do that and I do plan on emailing him back, I don't have the experience you all have so I am dependent on what is passed along to me or what I read so if I post something totally off and backwards my plea is insanity.

[Greenlee]

Thanks Royal Squire, I am assuming the Bronco story? This old farmer is seen around town once in a while. I am going to look for him and get some names to add to the story. It's the kind of thing that does not happen everyday but you will take all the time needed to hear the rest of the story lol. Be Blessed

[Greenlee]

I'll be back on later, but here is a link that you may find useful.  http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/94-98-performance-parts-discussion/1710706-afc-live-has-arrived-beginning-new-era.html

 

If you're going to email him back, ask him about GSK's I'm surprised he didn't mention anything about them.

Just finished shooting him another email asking about the GSK. I know from looking at the video's they use a strong spring that can apparently be adjusted on a continuous basis. I'll let you know what he sends back.