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New CJ-4 oils in older Flat Tappet Engine

Dieselfuture
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AH64ID

AH64ID

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Oil on label is Altorfer but its made by mobil with some other ingredients to their liking. So I guess they use that chart as reference.

I sure wouldn't be just by looking at the quick stuff posted.

If you want the info on the oil call the manufacturer. It sounds like the salesmen don't know much or the oil in the just isn't what it says it is. Something looks off...

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Vais01

Vais01

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After looking over the oil analysis sheet and seeing several other things such as the CES 20081 and CES 20078 mix up (CJ-4 highlighted) I began getting concerned.

Something is definitely not right with the oil. The total acid number is almost to the remove from service and in no way can proper additives create that high of acidity. I would either ask for the sample to be retested to see repeatability or take the oil back to the seller and highlight the TAN number and tell them lab shows 2.7 and max allowable TAN is 3.1 - 3.3.

Also you can call Mobil and they should be able to tell you the same thing. Oxidation and Sulfation of the oil are also up.

Either the test was done poorly or improperly, the sample was taken improperly or the oil itself has been improperly stored and has begun deteriorating.

Hope you get this figured out but until then I would recommend you keep that oil in the barrel and out of your engine.

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Dieselfuture

Dieselfuture

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After looking over the oil analysis sheet and seeing several other things such as the CES 20081 and CES 20078 mix up (CJ-4 highlighted) I began getting concerned.

Something is definitely not right with the oil. The total acid number is almost to the remove from service and in no way can proper additives create that high of acidity. I would either ask for the sample to be retested to see repeatability or take the oil back to the seller and highlight the TAN number and tell them lab shows 2.7 and max allowable TAN is 3.1 - 3.3.

Also you can call Mobil and they should be able to tell you the same thing. Oxidation and Sulfation of the oil are also up.

Either the test was done poorly or improperly, the sample was taken improperly or the oil itself has been improperly stored and has begun deteriorating.

Hope you get this figured out but until then I would recommend you keep that oil in the barrel and out of your engine.

I think you are right, I have my suspicion too, could not get a straight answer from them on few questions I had. Going to resample and go from there.
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Dieselfuture

Dieselfuture

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I sure wouldn't be just by looking at the quick stuff posted.

If you want the info on the oil call the manufacturer. It sounds like the salesmen don't know much or the oil in the just isn't what it says it is. Something looks off...

Yeap I can't have nothing nice I already figured it out a while back. Going to resample the bucket and see what happens.
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Vais01

Vais01

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Ok first one and second is retake sample of new Altorfer deo oil, third is new shell rotella T 15w40, and last is used amsoil ame 15w40 oil. Can some one explain what to look for.

Well hate to say this but something is very wrong with the TAN testing. Also some of the values on the oils do not seem right.

The testing of the Altorfer oil shows inconsistencies in testing and possibly the handling of the test sample. I would recommend sending off a sample to Blackstone Labs to compare the oil sample.

How are you drawing your samples? Pouring directly from the container or siphoning with a straw and pump?

http://www.pqiamerica.com/June%202014/consolidated%20HDEO%202015.html

On the link above you will see various oil samples that were tested and they will show the additives, viscosity, TBN value and much more. I recommend using this as a good reference of modern HDEO (Heavy Duty Engine Oil).

Edited by Vais01
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Dieselfuture

Dieselfuture

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Well hate to say this but something is very wrong with the TAN testing. Also some of the values on the oils do not seem right.

The testing of the Altorfer oil shows inconsistencies in testing and possibly the handling of the test sample. I would recommend sending off a sample to Blackstone Labs to compare the oil sample.

How are you drawing your samples? Pouring directly from the container or siphoning with a straw and pump?

I'd have to agree on inconcistancy of results coming from same 5 gallon bucket, firs sample was done with vacuume pump and new tube the other 2 out of bucket but extremely carful. Zink is all over tan is high for brand new oil and amsoil at 3700ml tan of 3.5 (on high side) and tbn 11.4 should be useable but says change oil if haven't yet. I'm not going to spend anymore time and money testing this stuff, but just wanted to see how consistent the results would be. Pretty inconsistent if you ask me. But I don't really know what to look for. Where is oxi and TAN should be on new oil? 0? And ho do you tell what a good oil is.
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Vais01

Vais01

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Yes you can run ZDDP in your truck. It's made specifically to stop premature wear on high pressure surfaces such as the tappets. The shop that machined my engine does man high hp (bully dog truck), stock hp, and medium hp builds and he requires it in all new motors because much of the zinc has been taken out of today's oils.

His exact word were: "If anyone is running conventional oil, which I prefer you should put some sort of zinc additive in to keep from wearing the high pressure areas. I have personally rebuilt 4 engines that were 2013 or newer that had cam lobes worn off. I also run 1 bottle of ZDDP in my 12 valve just to make sure things are lubed properly. You will more than likely be just fine running without additive in older, broke-in motors but chancing it with a new motor just isn't smart."

Take that as you will; I know I will run ZDDP in my truck for the rest of its life.

Aftermarket cam builders require the ZDDP additive for break-in Cummins ISB engines do not require the additional zinc and phosphorus. That came directly from Cummins. The CJ-4 oils have an ISB flat tappet and rocker wear tests. CJ-4 oils are approved for use on all Cummins ISB and 6BT engines. Call Cummins if you like, they will clarify. The use of CI-4 oils is for low or high sulfur fuels. No on highway or off highway fuels currently have more than 15 PPM of sulfur unless you are using marine grade fuels. This is also due to change in the near future.

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Vais01

Vais01

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I'd have to agree on inconcistancy of results coming from same 5 gallon bucket, firs sample was done with vacuume pump and new tube the other 2 out of bucket but extremely carful. Zink is all over tan is high for brand new oil and amsoil at 3700ml tan of 3.5 (on high side) and tbn 11.4 should be useable but says change oil if haven't yet. I'm not going to spend anymore time and money testing this stuff, but just wanted to see how consistent the results would be. Pretty inconsistent if you ask me. But I don't really know what to look for. Where is oxi and TAN should be on new oil? 0? And ho do you tell what a good oil is.

TAN levels should be below 2 for new oil. 1 to 1.5 I would think is within the normal range.

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Vais01

Vais01

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According to that chart rotella is pretty close to what I got for result, maybe they all fine?

The chart on where? The link I gave does not show TAN levels. TAN is acidity of the lubrication oil. This changes due to oil oxidation and fuel dilution. Virgin (unused) HDEO should not show high TAN levels.

Which chart did you see TAN levels for Rotella 15W-40?

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Dieselfuture

Dieselfuture

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The chart on where? The link I gave does not show TAN levels. TAN is acidity of the lubrication oil. This changes due to oil oxidation and fuel dilution. Virgin (unused) HDEO should not show high TAN levels.

Which chart did you see TAN levels for Rotella 15W-40?

I was talking about everything else but TAN, don't look like anybody is posting TAN levels on new oils anyway. That said maybe new oils react different in this test and need to be ran through motor before having a true TAN number. So other than TAN being high is everything else look ok to use in cummins? I'm not so sure that their equipment is functioning properly because TAN on Amsoil is at 3.5 and they say to change it, it only got 3700ml on it and if amsoil says I can go for at least 10k with this oil and their filters then something is off. It still looks kind of clean on deep stick. Edited by Dieselfuture
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Vais01

Vais01

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I was talking about everything else but TAN, don't look like anybody is posting TAN levels on new oils anyway.

Mostly everything else adds up. There is some variance in the production lots. That being said I would run it.

What oil have you been using with the CI-4 rating?

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Dieselfuture

Dieselfuture

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Mostly everything else adds up. There is some variance in the production lots. That being said I would run it.

What oil have you been using with the CI-4 rating?

Past 3 years Amsoil AME 15w40 diesel and marine. These guys put this Altorfer DEO oil in just about anything I'm starting to think that lab results are goofy for some reason.
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