NV4500 and 50 SAE GL-4 Synthetic Trans Fluid

[Mopar1973Man]

(Hua)

 

Flat ground towing on paved highway or street is pretty easy going. Low power required.

 

Now leave the city, pavement, and flat ground... Now go up a steep road, dirt, switch backs, potholes, washboard, etc. I see a increase of load %, HP is higher, TQ is torque high, fuel flow is up, etc. Your foot is in and out of the throttle so you slow down and the lay more power to pick it back up. Way different that even paved grades where you can maintain even pace even at slow speeds. Lot of surge throttling, slow down for the corner, speed up again for the straight, slow down for the washboard, speed up for the smooth road. etc. So like in my run all way from home to the dirt road its 23 miles of pavement. Trans temp never rose off 100*F. Turn off and start up the dirt road it only took 2 miles and it crested at it high temp and stayed. Morning hours so the air was still cool. Now loaded and coming out the very same way. Even going down hill it only took 2 miles and it crested again at it high point. Like I said it's not smooth even throttle its up and down, slow down, speed up, etc. The only time that change is when I got to the grade and it was pure exhaust brake all the way to the bottom.

 

Highway now that just cruise control and ride home. Now with you comment I can see it holding true like driving through town at 25 MPH. still climbing a slight grade but controlled throttle, smooth roads, etc.

[AH64ID]

Since when is all pavement flat ground? Where where we talking about pavement being flat and dirt roads being hilly? There are plenty of flat dirt roads and hilly paved roads :-)

 

Look at your post. "  I figured it would be the toughest being the slow speeds and lack of cooling wind under the truck." 

 

You are simply not looking at all the variables at once and just picking parts and pieces to focus on. 

 

Stop taking generalizations and applying them to absolutes. Nothing is absolute but we can certainly generalize. No different than telling us that your TT is 4' lower than dripleys 5er to make a point. It's a false statement that you don't research or even comment on when called out. It complacently invalidates your argument and makes it hard to take anything you talk about as factual. 

 

This is why people want to see results with this fluid outside of your microcosm. It's not to say your data isn't valid, it's simply that your use is not average. 

Edited June 7, 2016 by AH64ID

[KATOOM]

I certainly dont want this to become a of battle of frustrations..... I'm merely looking for examples and scenarios I can compare to for legitimate reasons to consider this alternate 50w stuff.

 

Just keep us posted on your findings Moparman and maybe you've simply found the fluid we've all been hoping for. 

[Killer223]

are there steel plates on the trans? like maybe the PTO cover? could one weld some fins on it for a make shift cooler? i'd be willing to weld them up if you were closer. something i'm thinking about doing to my auto trans pan. some rows of kinda thinish metal. welded on, getto yes. will it work? sure like to think ti would.

[Mopar1973Man]

I thought about bolt on aluminum fins. PTO are just steel plates. If I can reach and hold 200*F I would consider making a set of heat sinks for the PTO covers. So far most of my daily driving empty I'm hard pressed to get 130*F maybe 140*F. First 10-20 miles is stays below 100*F. So far thew only time I've seen good hot temps is climbing slow up forestry roads towing. Most of the dirt I travel are steeper than most common highway grades. Highway wise it warm noting too bad. Might surge for 6-7% grade but back side always cools right back down again.

 

I'm waiting to see winter time now. Summer is no problem so far. I know I've got a trip up north to do soon which will be be a empty truck again. But I'll report as I have been.

[Mopar1973Man]

Another 130 mile run including a 7% grade that is 7 miles long. I was not towing this trip just the truck. The weather outside is extremely hot at 104*F. Kept with posted speed limits the whole trip there and back. The most I've seen for transmission temperature was 165*F for brief time going over the grade. The rest of the trip it floated 158-162*F more or less a needle width below or above 160*F.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Mopar1973Man

[Mopar1973Man]

Another trailer run has been done. Average outside temperature was 85-87*F  and towing the RV this time.  Normal average towing temperature was about 165-175*F till I hit a 6% grade then it rose up to 185*F but coming back down the back side of the grade it quick cooled off and resumed the old normal range again. I will note that towing in city environment does promote higher transmission fluid temperatures most like because of the constant starts and stops and very low wind. Kind of like towing up into the forest low speeds don't provide enough cooling. I did see a max of 190*F crawling around on city streets. Again as soon as I got back up to 55-60 MPH it cools right back off again.

 

So far I've not seen anything that makes me jumpy as of yet. Even my 46RE transmission in my 96 Dodge Ram 1500 reaches 190*F easy crawling around on the city streets that's ATF+4 and it even got a cooler and not even towing a trailer. As for NV4500 towing 8,000 pound RV at 55-60 MPH or city street driving and topping out at 190*F without a cooler and running 50 SAE transmission fluid I'd say it doing just fine.

 

I have say I welcome the fact of seeing transmission fluid temperatures in the 160-170*F range. I'm noticing that MPG's are up slightly more with warm transmission fluid temperatures where daily driving locally where the fluid never even breaks the 100*F mark it tend to promote more drag in the drive line reducing MPG's slightly. Also it a good thing to get to heat to the oil to make sure the moisture is cooked out. I'm going to be looking at was to blocking the cold wind in the winter time to see about keeping some of the warmth in the gear lube in the bitter cold. So far with summer heat and my driving style I'm not seeing a reason for any kind of cooler.

 

 

[TFaoro]

Transmission blanket

[KATOOM]

It seems like the temperatures are staying relatively safe.  Thats good.....  Although I'm not sure why the low speed driving temps are so hot though as my tranny temps dont reflect that.  190* around town is hotter than I'd ever anticipate for a manual to ever run.

Nonetheless, hopefully all we have to do is keep tabs on whether or not the syncros remain OK with the new fluid.

[Mopar1973Man]

Highway speeds tend to be cooler while mountain roads, and city driving tends to be slightly warmer. I'll have another towing trip soon that I'll have to do so I'm going to modify my driving habits a bit and see what happens.

 

30 minutes ago, KATOOM said:

Nonetheless, hopefully all we have to do is keep tabs on whether or not the syncros remain OK with the new fluid.

 

 

As for the syncro's there doing fine. No grinding of gears. Last check of the fluid is was still a clear amber color. I've got to jack up the passenger side of the truck quite a ways to keep from spilling the fluid. So I know the fluid is over the sensor yet.

 

If your wondering what the syncros look like. Here is the carbon fiber part of the syncro ring.

 

30 minutes ago, KATOOM said:

Although I'm not sure why the low speed driving temps are so hot though as my tranny temps dont reflect that. 

 

 

Might be radiant heat from the exhaust pipe and lack of cooling wind under the truck coupled with towing a trailer and launching from traffic light to traffic light putting power to at least 3 different gears then unwind against the exhaust brake. Seems like clock work get to the city limits and get up to 55-60 MPH towing the trans temp always falls right back off. Still 190*F isn't bad... I'm not even worried yet.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Mopar1973Man

[KATOOM]

1 minute ago, Mopar1973Man said:

As for the syncro's there doing fine. No grinding of gears. Last check of the fluid is was still a clear amber color.

 

Unfortunately though, this is something only time will tell over at least 20k miles, as the carbon composite can separate from the ring if there's fluid compatibility issues.  But I agree that if the fluid color seemingly remains in check then thats a good sign.

[AH64ID]

4 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

I've got to jack up the passenger side of the truck quite a ways to keep from spilling the fluid. So I know the fluid is over the sensor yet.

 

That made me wonder so I ran the math. 

 

The 3/4" NPT plug is 1.050" across and the NV4500 is approx 10" wide at the fill port. That means it needs to be at an angle of 6° to get a fully submerged plug dry, that means the outside of the passenger side tire needs to be at least 8" off the ground. So there is what you need to know the static level. 

 

You never did answer the question on how you verified that it's submerged at speed. Not arguing, just curious...

4 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Might be radiant heat from the exhaust pipe and lack of cooling wind under the truck coupled with towing a trailer and launching from traffic light to traffic light putting power to at least 3 different gears then unwind against the exhaust brake. Seems like clock work get to the city limits and get up to 55-60 MPH towing the trans temp always falls right back off. Still 190*F isn't bad... I'm not even worried yet.

 

The lack of cooling air will have an impact but you should have less friction at those speeds so the temps shouldn't increase unless you are either pulling heat from the gears you cannot pull at highway speed or the level of fluid over the sensor changes. 

[leathermaneod]

You mentioning the color makes me wonder why mine was so sparkly when I checked. Especially since the fluid is new. I wonder if it could be wear from the new input shaft bearing....

[Mopar1973Man]

30 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

 

The 3/4" NPT plug is 1.050" across and the NV4500 is approx 10" wide at the fill port. That means it needs to be at an angle of 6° to get a fully submerged plug dry, that means the outside of the passenger side tire needs to be at least 8" off the ground. So there is what you need to know the static level. 

 

I just went out and measured the angle I've got to get to open the fill plug for checking I measured at least 16.3 to 16.5 degrees of angle to full at the bottom of the fill hole. This is about 18" inches of lift. I'm sure that sensor is well submerged. (5 full quarts in the case)

Edited June 15, 2016 by Mopar1973Man

[AH64ID]

9 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

I just went out and measured the angle I've got to get to open the fill plug for checking I measured at least 16.3 to 16.5 degrees of angle to full at the bottom of the fill hole. This is about 18" inches of lift. I'm sure that sensor is well submerged. (5 full quarts in the case)

 

Holy crap!

 

That's putting the passenger tire over 22" in the air. What kind of jack are you using?

 

That would put the fluid volume about 2" above the fill hole static, so that should be good. Still seems odd you warm up that much in town and cool off that quickly at speed. The cool off should be slow with the heavy cast iron case and no coolers, but who knows. 

[Mopar1973Man]

29 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

Holy crap!

 

That's putting the passenger tire over 22" in the air. What kind of jack are you using?

 

 That's easy.  Rock Wall... Just back the passenger side up till about 16* to 17* degrees and pull the plug.

 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2016 by Mopar1973Man

[Mopar1973Man]

I'm back out on the road towing the RV for my other job. I can tell you for sure that transmission is very much weather based being this trip it's 60*F off and on rain showers in barely making 150*F for a high.

[Mopar1973Man]

Here is find... I know this is brief but running 4th gear at 55 MPH will actually drop the transmission temperature as low as125*F. Outside temperatue is 68*F and not towing trailer. Engine load average was12 to 15% and 30 to 35HP at the flywheel. 5 PSI boost and EGTs roughly 550*F giving me roughly 25 to 27 MPG. Data is sure handy...

[Rx7man]

To overfill the NV4500, I used a piece of rubber hose that fit snugly in the filler hole and filled it with a funnel from near the turbo... once filled, I quickly pulled the hose out and put the plug in.

I want to put a temp sensor on my tranny, but won't be doing that until I do the NV5600 swap and 3.55 gears

[Mopar1973Man]

Ok... I learned a bunch this last trip. I can tell you that transmission temperatures are based on speed and drag. Like the first trip I was completely full throttle attempting to hold speed limit as much as possible. This trip I back off and made a more relaxed trip out of it. Like my previous trip I had ttransmission temperatures as high as 190*F. This trip only barely made 160*F once. The rest of the time I was able to hold it at 145-150*F most of the way. No the trailer didn't get lighter. But I used 4th gear (Direct 1:1) much more when I was able to. Approximately 20-40 HP less and nearly 100 foot pound less power required to keep the pace at 55-60 MPH vs 65 MPH.

 

Look at Jun 12 and jun 13 as the first trip down and back. Then Jun 16 and Jun 17 on this down and back.

 

 

As power is increase and applied heavier to keep pulling against wind drag the MPG falls and the transmission temperature rises. When a device is used inefficiently then the device usually will create more and more heat with more it push outside its normal operational realm. So to test this thought I ran a few area in 5th and set the cruise at 65 MPH sure enough the transmission reacts and slow starts rising. Now when traffic and road conditions permitted I would drop down to 4th (direct 1:1) and set the cruise at 55 MPH. Sure enough the temperature would fall and then settle at 145-150*F. Compared to last trip touching 190*F and settling about 170*F or so.  The above MPG logs proves that wind drag and speed can and will produce heat in everything from the engine all the way back to transmission and differential. Between watching the tablet with my torque, horsepower, load, and MPG I've learn quite a bit on how to gain that extra little bit for towing a RV weighing in at close 8,000 pounds.