Dying ECM?

[Curt026]

Hey guys first time poster over here. I was fairly active on cumminsforum years ago, but then life got in the way. I've owned my 2002 2500 for about 8+ years now and it has just over 111,000 miles. I had a company vehicle until I switched jobs in June of this year and now I'm dependant on my truck.  Long story short is last week on my drive home it just shut off on me like someone flipped a switch. It took a couple times cycling the key back and forth until it would start because I quickly realized that the lift pump was not priming and it wouldn't start. Well it did the the rest of my drive back home (about 5 more times) and has been parked ever since. To be clear once it stalls it will not start until I cycle the key or wait a few seconds and then when I turn the key to on and hear the pump prime it fires right away. It's throwing 1689 and 0341. I finally had a chance to play with it again today after reading up on the issues over the past few days and have found a few more things out. Most importantly is that when I cycle the key off and back on the wait to start light does not light up and the pump doesn't prime. Then when it decides to work I see the wts light and hear it kick on the lift pump and she fires off. I hope this is making sense. I do have an old school quadzilla v2 from before they went out of business and every so often it would freeze up on me. Literally two weeks ago I thought I had that issue diagnosed with a possible low voltage symptom. The gauge in the truck is basically useless and I did not realize that my truck is only charging at 13-13.4. So could there be a correlation here between the pcm and ecm? I'd rather just wire in a regulator at this point but I need to do what I need to do. I'm getting ready to change out the negative cables and all the grounds that feed off the battery because I changed the positives a year ago because of bad clamps. Does anyone have any advice on where to look first or save me the trouble and just confirm it's the ecm? I've done no testing yet for the two codes it's thrown.  I appreciate any and all advice and I hope some of this makes sense

[dripley]

Sounds like multiple things. The 341 is your can shaft positioning sensor. That could be the cause of your shut downs. Is your tach working. While not expensive it is between the Vp and the block and difficult get to with out removing the pump. Not impossible and I have heard of folks doing it that way. Never had to do it myself. 

the 1689 is more concerning. The ECM and the VP are having trouble communicating. I would defer to others for advice on that one.

The delayed WTS light and starting is the ECM having problems with boot up. Again I would defer to someone else to explain this in better detail. 

 

I would however start with the cam sensor and see what happens with that. It could be contributing to the poor electronic communications that are going on.

[Curt026]

Thank you for chiming in. I did replace the cam sensor about 3 years ago, roughly 10-15k miles, with a new cummins part. I'm wondering if that code is not being thrown just as a side effect of the real issue? My tach works all the time and the first time that it quit on me just the 1689 code was present. Well I should say the first night that I got it home. It had stalled a few times on me on that drive home. Something else that has me wondering is the voltage. My original alternator quit on me or so I thought a couple years back. I replaced it with a mechman and never looked back. Thinking back I'll bet I've had this low charging issue since then or longer. I also read somewhere that the pcm either quits charging or overcharges. Does the ecm have any rule in maintaining charge? It would be so nice if redoing these grounds fixed all my problems but I'm afraid it's to late or not the issue. I hate to buy an ecm and that not be the problem but I am absolutely terrible at electrical troubleshooting. I will report back tomorrow on my findings after going through the 1689 tests and hopefully this will start making more sense. Thanks again

[dripley]

The PCM does do the voltage regulating and it is temperature sensitive to what it has the alternator charge at. The warmer it is the lower the charge voltage is and the reverse for colder temps. Not sure how low I have seen mine go in the warmer weather. Mid 13's IIRC.

 

Just as you I am a card holding member of the electrically challenged. There are a lot weird things that can happen due to electronics that can foul up how these truck run. The older they get the more they show themselves. I need a crash course that I will remember.. 

[Curt026]

My voltage hovers between 13 and 13.2 it seems and doesn't seem to change with temperature. the dash gauge shows everything as normal, maybe slightly low, but to the untrained eye you would never read it as not charging where it should be. My quadzilla has been freezing up on me for about a year now but it would only happen when the weather gets above 70.  There were numerous reports of problems with them so I just chalked it up to a faulty quadzilla and didn't think much of it. When I installed isspros some time ago I went through the menu of display readings on the pulse monitor since I no longer needed it for fuel pressure and egt readings. Upon doing that I noticed the ecm voltage as being low. Sometimes when the quad freezes it will display 12.8-12.9 for voltage so to make a long story short that's how I found that problem. It looks like I'm going to have to wait until Monday to get my negative cables crimped at work. In the mean time I'll also try unplugging the quad to see if somehow it's related to my issues. At this point I don't care about having to buy an ecm but I want to make sure that's the problem and fix whatever made it go bad to begin with beforehand. Anyone have any experience with dieselecmusa.com? They have an ad on eBay and seem to have the most professional description of any of the ones I've seen thus far. The descriptions and wording on other sites and ads just doesn't make me feel good about handing over that much cash. They just all seem like a scam 

[dripley]

Unfortunately getting a remanned ECM is difficult at best. I went thru a very bad time doing this back about 8 years ago and have seen many others with the same experience. I ended up with one from Cummins, still a reman, but it is still working. Wish I knew someone else I could recommend for an ECM. I spent about 7 weeks and 2 ECMs before the second one worked but with no cruise control. 

 

Quadzzilla could have a look at your tuner and maybe find the issue and fix it.

 

A lot of this could be to much AC voltage from your alternator. Mike has a article about checking for here but I cannot seem to find. To much AC voltage will kill the electronics in these truck.

[Curt026]

well I've been doing my best to run through the tests for 1689 and I'm struggling getting a reading off of the ecm connector because the holes are so small. I did find something that just might be the culprit though. I hope these attached pictures work. Sorry for the bad pics but I'm basically working in the dark with no high side creeper and no help. It appears to me that two of the pins on the harness connector have pulled off onto the pump side. Can anyone who knows what these pins look like for certain confirm this? That connection has only been undone twice and both times it was at the dealer about 50k miles ago. Please tell me this is the root of all my troubles. Number 3 and 9 look to be gone from the ecm side and I cannot tell if they are stuck on the pins on the Vp side. Thank you for any help

[dripley]

I have never looked at mine that close but it does appear something is amiss. They do appear to have pulled apart. i have seen a replacement plug that comes with a pig tail you can splice into the harness. Might take a while to figure where I saw it though. That might explain the communications problem.

[IBMobile]

Pins #3 and #9 are not used by the injection pump that is why there are no female terminals for those pins in the connector.  If you pull back the rubber covering to the connector you'll find no wires for those pin positions.

 

 

Edited October 16, 2017 by IBMobile

[Curt026]

Thank you guys for taking the time to try and help. It took me a little while of digging to find that diagram you posted. I was just excited and couldn't find an answer right away. Back to square one again. I'm making new grounds from the batteries and replacing any other ground I can find tomorrow. If that doesnt solve it, which I'm not very optimistic at this point, then I'll be shopping for an ecm. The more I read about the wait to start light not coming on the more I'm leaning that direction. I will also be sure to test for ac current as well. This alternator is about two or three years old and has maybe 10k miles and is from Mechman. It tested good when it was installed but who knows. I have the truck all torn apart at this point. I had a very difficult time trying to run through the 1689 diagnostic tests. I couldn't get readings on most of the tests and I'm not sure if I'm not getting a good connection to the pin or if that's because of internal ecm failures? I'm using a fluke 87? I borrowed from work and it was just tested/calibrated a few weeks ago 

[dripley]

2 hours ago, IBMobile said:

Pins #3 and #9 are not used by the injection pump that is why there are no female terminals for those pins in the connector.  If you pull back the rubber covering to the connector you'll find no wires for those pin positions.

 

 

Thanks IB for the education. 

[Mopar1973Man]

8 hours ago, Curt026 said:

Thank you guys for taking the time to try and help. It took me a little while of digging to find that diagram you posted. I was just excited and couldn't find an answer right away. Back to square one again. I'm making new grounds from the batteries and replacing any other ground I can find tomorrow. If that doesnt solve it, which I'm not very optimistic at this point, then I'll be shopping for an ecm. The more I read about the wait to start light not coming on the more I'm leaning that direction. I will also be sure to test for ac current as well. This alternator is about two or three years old and has maybe 10k miles and is from Mechman. It tested good when it was installed but who knows. I have the truck all torn apart at this point. I had a very difficult time trying to run through the 1689 diagnostic tests. I couldn't get readings on most of the tests and I'm not sure if I'm not getting a good connection to the pin or if that's because of internal ecm failures? I'm using a fluke 87? I borrowed from work and it was just tested/calibrated a few weeks ago 

 

I highly suggest against creating new grounds and wiring... The ECM, PCM and VP44 get their ground from the passenger battery.

 

[Curt026]

I mean I'm literally replacing all the negative battery connections. The drivers side was able to be wiggled back and forth and and pulled off. It's not hard to damage the stock clamps especially after 15-16 years. I have all new 2/0 dlo locomotive cable going to the engine and number 6 on all other connections. I spliced the two grounds on the passenger side with disconnects, leaving the disconnects in place.  I have no intention of running any other grounds besides what the factory had. Just new and heavier duty. I guess the plan is to get those all on and put the truck all back together this evening and see what happens. 

[Curt026]

Well I finally got all the new grounds installed and everything put back together. When I started the truck I noticed my voltage went right to 13.8 and stayed there except for when the grids cycled on and off. That is the highest I have seen it charge since noticing the low charge issue. It was no colder than it has been and I replaced the temp sensor before the "ecm issue" with no change. Truck ran for 10 minutes and then cut out again.  I was able to connect my reader and it spit out 1689 again and the cam sensor code was not present.  Then something funny happened with the reader where it acted like it was not connecting and would cut in and out. I can't tell if it's a connection/reader issue or a computer issue as to why it keeps cutting in and out.  Kind of odd timing for something like that to happen. So I'm going to run through the 1689 test one more time and see if I can get the right readings and then start calling around for an ecm tomorrow.  I am going to call diesel system services first as their ad and website seem the most legit that I have found but if anyone has any first hand experience with another place I would love to hear your recommendation. I still cannot get a clear answer as to whether it's possible for the pcm or ecm for that matter to send a bad enough signal to the alternator to produce a lower charge than normal. Oh and I also replaced the 140a fuse as well.  Should have done that separately to see if it made the difference or not.  I cannot find any sign of bad wiring anywhere. Last note is I have had my grids unplugged at the battery for about 2 years and they are now hooked back up.  I can't see that making a difference but who knows. The computer also seemed to take longer and longer to "reset" and kick on the wts light. It took noticeably longer for that happen than it previously was. 

[Curt026]

IM surprised it hasn't been asked already, and for that matter the lack of response in general, but I just checked the ac voltage. Measured at alternator post and grounded to alternator I have 085.9 mVAC. I paid the money for what is supposed to be the best and USA made alternator a couple years ago from mechman so I'm excited to see that number still. This company claims they rebuild the entire ecm and not just the damaged component. And then they also test it for vibration and hot and cold as well.  Can anyone confirm that it's even possible to rebuild the entire ecm for these things? I want as much info as possible before calling them tomorrow to feel them out so I know what questions to ask and how to spot a fraud. They have an eBay account and a website that sound legit. Only negative thing I've seen so far is they reviewed their own eBay ad which is pretty cheesy but still a lot less sketchy than all the other websites and ads I could find. I would love a recommendation from someone with past experience. I will continue to update this thread all the way to the end even if there are no one else because nobody ever updates the fix and when searching stuff from years ago it's so difficult to get an exact answer. I can't find any other documentation on the exact problems I am experiencing. 

[dripley]

My recommendation is see if you can still get one thru Cummins. I hear folks say you can and can't get them there anymore. That's where mine came from. This was after going the internet rebuilding route. The first one did not work and they kept my core charge saying it was to far gone. Took 6 weeks to get another from them. It worked except for cruise. The truck had been down so long I had to use it. It lasted the better part 13 months and died. That is when I ended up getting one from Cummins. I did all of this to save money and spent three times what I should have. The internet one came from Auto Computer Exchange. I have posted this story here several times.

 It seems to me that many others here and elsewhere have had very similar experiences with other rebuilders. All I can say is do your research on the company and try and see if they honor their warranties. I would think you will need it. As far as what to ask, I could not tell you. The ECM fails in different ways. Some die slowly others like mine quickly. Mine acted up one day and then 36 hours later went beserk. P0606 is the failed ECM code. Mine never never showed that code until I put the first rebuild on. But the OE spit out other codes by the handfulls.

 @cajflynnan old member here posted in a thread a long time ago about a couple places he had success with and as far as I know he seems to be the only positive review I have ever read. I am pretty sure GoECM was one of them but do not remember the other. The post is in someone else's thread and in the archives here but I would not know how to find it. Stumbled across it a few months back while doing a google search.

 I wish I had something better for you than this but the ECM seems to be a bit mysterious.

Edited October 19, 2017 by dripley

[Mopar1973Man]

10 hours ago, Curt026 said:

Measured at alternator post and grounded to alternator I have 085.9 mVAC.

 

Alternator is a fail. It's need to be replaced. You might have to send the ECM back for AC noise damage again. 

[Curt026]

Really? I thought that 86 mVAC was a good number? Wouldn't that be .086 VAC? Now I have go on the search again....dripley thank you for all your help. I will try to call cummins and see what they tell me. Never dreamed this would be such a process but I have to do what I have to do. Replacing the ecm is a last resort but I have pretty much exhausted all my resources and myself for that matter while working on this thing in all my free time for the last week. 

[Mopar1973Man]

Anything over 0.05 is getting to be a problem and random issues. 0.1 is a for sure failure constant issues and problem are for sure. Lower the AC noise the better off. Like my last check on mine is 0.035 AC Volts.

[Curt026]

Well I am an idiot. Calling up mechman now to see what I have to go through to get this thing rebuilt. It only has 10k miles on it but it's probably a little over 2 years old which is what their warranty is. Holding off on ECM until I get this taken care of. Praying it's the only problem. Truck starts and runs fine the first start of the day for about 10 minutes. I may just be that lucky that this is my only problem. Thank you for catching my mistake Mike.