Just rebuilt 47re myself and it went out 5 days later

[2000Ram2500]

Ive been off the site for a while due to so many circumstances over the last 3 years as im sure so many of us have. Im hoping some of the older knowledge is still floating around because i may need some help or if nothing else i can document the story a little bit here

 

Back in 2017 i had the transmission rebuilt for the first time by a good friend at a reputable shop with plenty of experience. He did a great job.

 

What was done then- (cause of failure was TC welding itself together and subsequently toasting the rest of the unit while i trying to get it home) billet triple disc, shift kit, GM sensor and governor, replaced one drum (with a good used one, still good) and both bands due to wear and scoring that drum from a rivet in the band. Transtar parts were used.

 

Now in the spring of 2021 i unfortunately sank the truck in a mud hole and flooded the rear axle and transmission. The transmission lasted another 6 months before finally giving up on me which i knew was only a matter of time due to the water.

 

I got the ATSG book and another kit from my now local transtar (moved from AZ to FL) and tore the transmission apart knowing full well the clutches are done. Discovered my input hub (between the shaft and clutch bucket where the forward piston goes) was completely cracked end to end except for the outer edge on one side so i ordered the light duty billet replacement from goerend. Mic'd the gaps and end play and ordered the appropriate sized snap ring when i discovered that i needed it. I did not inspect the pump (shame on me i know), i made sure all the old fluid was drained from the valve body and cleaned the burnt clutch material off of it and reinstalled and assembled the whole thing.

 

Installed in the truck just fine, TC lined up on both sets of splines and bolted to the flex plate just fine. Filled with fluid and it worked great on the first drive. Barely any bleeding any air out of the valve body was necessary it was just ready to go. I drove the truck for exactly 5 days. Got it running on a sunday and it stopped working that friday.

 

I hop in for my commute and within 5 minutes of startup im at a red light. As i approached that light the truck attempted OD but it shook the whole truck and dropped out of gear and then i had to hit the breaks due to red light. About a mile down the road its attempting OD again and same results only this time i start to lose pressure so i immediately pull over and get out. I saw fluid pouring out from the bellhousing and by that time i had basically no forward or reverse. I had it flat towed home by a coworker and I parked it.

 

After work that day I tested it out and I have absolutely no reverse but drive will engage after about 5 seconds and of course its a really weak engagement.

 

I feel like the safe bet is a pump but having just rebuilt it there's no telling if i missed a crucial point (yes i know the pump). A seasoned technician at my work has told me several times to not buy a pump and to take the DRB scanner from work while i pressure test it and write down everything. I may end up borrowing the DRB but did not do that yet.

 

At this time i dont have any more diagnosis info but as soon as i submit this post im going to crawl under there and pressure test it. And likely drain and drop the pan after that. I'll post my findings.

 

If anyone has any input or experience with this or similar it would definitely be appreciated

 

UPDATE after pressure test on accumulator port. ATSG book says 54-60psi. Cold start and i read 80 right off the bat. I tried it again and got 70, again and got 40 with a bouncy needle, last try got me 10-15 with a needle all over the place. haven't drained fluid or tested rear servo for reverse pressure yet. We can eliminate the pump as the issue as i am building pressure

 

UPDATE 2 i inspected everything and studied the fluid paths a little bit in the book. Oddly enough there is fluid everywhere around the cooler line fittings and mainly the most soaked is the shift lever but it clearly made its way all over the frame rail as well. The only thing immediately in common between drive and reverse is the OD/Direct Clutch which is the giant spring loaded assembly so no fluid required there. Im leaning towards an issue with a lip seal on the forward pistons

 

I think this is probably enough information maybe someone can go off of that

Edited July 17, 2022 by 2000Ram2500

[Great work!]

So are you saying the front shaft seal is destroyed or pushed out?

 

I use a ratchet strap to hold the converter back then slip it out once a couple bolts are in. If converter slips out of place and gets jammed it destroys things.

 

You have to completely disassemble the valve body, to do a good job. Take lots of pictures and notes. Clean it all out use round bore type brushes. Finish with very hot soap and water and dry every thing in a warm oven.

[2000Ram2500]

I agree i thought front seal too but its not leaking at this time. Im not able to take it out of the truck at this time or i would just do that and try to find the problem

 

Its been a couple months by now that ive had it parked since it let me down and broke my heart again. But im still confident the TC was spinning freely before i put bolts in. And I did go on a whole weeks work of commute 25 minutes each way and some other driving outside of that. Maybe im mistaken but i dont think i would get that much time out of it if the TC wasnt lined up or jammed in there somewhere

 

My head is actually leaning more towards the lip seals on the forward clutches pistons im wondering if i pinched one and it let go of all of its fluid and it made its way out the vent

Edited July 17, 2022 by 2000Ram2500
speculation

[IBMobile]

1 hour ago, 2000Ram2500 said:

But im still confident the TC was spinning freely before i put bolts in.

If the torque convertor had moved forward and out of alignment the truck would have never moved let alone cracking the bell housing while trying to bolt it to the engine block.   

No reverse and weak forward maybe a bad front drum/clutch pack and the input shaft, which is attached to the drum, may have buggered up the oil pump and the TC.

 

[Mopar1973Man]

Oil leaking out the front means the pump seal and possible bearing damage. I've had this happen on Mom's 1976 Dodge Power Wagon. Sad to to say it was a 727 Torqueflite. Similar design...

[Great work!]

Maybe the front pump bolts loosened up  that can cause pressure leaks to other channels and sucking in air and of course fluid leaks. 

[2000Ram2500]

On 7/17/2022 at 4:52 PM, IBMobile said:

If the torque convertor had moved forward and out of alignment the truck would have never moved let alone cracking the bell housing while trying to bolt it to the engine block.   

No reverse and weak forward maybe a bad front drum/clutch pack and the input shaft, which is attached to the drum, may have buggered up the oil pump and the TC.

 

 

i replaced all the clutches including the set under the 800lb spring. Billet input shaft. Front drum was in great condition.

 

the only thing I didn’t mess with is the lip seals under the 9 springs that are inside the front drum. I didn’t have a reason to remove the springs so I left the seals alone. I’m kinda kicking myself now though because it’s kind of leading me in that direction it seems
 

On 7/17/2022 at 4:57 PM, Mopar1973Man said:

Oil leaking out the front means the pump seal and possible bearing damage. I've had this happen on Mom's 1976 Dodge Power Wagon. Sad to to say it was a 727 Torqueflite. Similar design...

When you say bearing damage are you talking about the bushings/guides where the input goes through the pump? 
 

im glad some of the guys from over the years are still active on here

 

a coworker here recommended that I air pressure test a couple of the ports and identify the problem that way. It’ll be another project for the weekend when I have some time to do so and get into it a little further 

Edited July 20, 2022 by 2000Ram2500
Reply

[Great work!]

Definately air check. Stack the converter, pump, front and rear clutch packs together and air check. Then air check the OD and bands. The roller clutch spring piece in the OD is easy to put together wrong and can cause a shutter when od engages. Always replace the clutch pack piston lip seals .

Buy some pieces of plastic pipe and cut some access ports to push the springs down to get at them snap rings. Use a c clamp or drill press. The OD spring is a pain best to use a press.

[2000Ram2500]

25 minutes ago, Great work! said:

Definately air check. Stack the converter, pump, front and rear clutch packs together and air check. Then air check the OD and bands. The roller clutch spring piece in the OD is easy to put together wrong and can cause a shutter when od engages. Always replace the clutch pack piston lip seals .

Buy some pieces of plastic pipe and cut some access ports to push the springs down to get at them snap rings. Use a c clamp or drill press. The OD spring is a pain best to use a press.

never air tested any transmissions before so that’ll be a learning experience.

 

and yes I did do the clutches under the big spring they were a nightmare and a little sketchy to say the least. I bought a press from northern tool and used about a 10 inch piece of 3” PVC cut down with a window to get the snap rings in and out. Literally the only lip seals I didn’t change was behind the forward clutches in the front drum. I did the rear forward piston and got the gap set with the correct size snap ring and definitely changed those seals. Just the ones under the little springs I didn’t change but I never even took the springs out to inspect it so there’s that. The one-way roller clutches were easy. I just set them in a safe place until assembly and they went in the same way they came out. I verified direction with the book but I never moved them and definitely had 5 days of solid problem free smooth driving out of it so I’m sure they are fine. 

 

i followed the factory diag flowchart (I work at a dodge dealer) and Chrysler says to look at the regulator valve inside the valve body. At this point it seems I’m looking at a line pressure issue with a leak I can’t pinpoint until I get this thing out and I can’t get it pulled until my buddy clears me a spot in his garage. So when I get a chance I’ll be draining fluid and pulling the valve body and inspecting as much as I possibly can without actually pulling it and proceed from there. 
 

I’ll also update with any codes since I keep forgetting to pull them

Edited July 20, 2022 by 2000Ram2500

[2000Ram2500]

Finally have an update to this thread

 

As it turns out I managed to clog the filter with leftover debris in the cooler and torque converter. Flushed about 7 gallons of fluid through it so far. Changed filter added fluid and drove it.. 

 

TPS/APPS was sticking and cutting out and almost made it undriveable but i pressed on. Went easy on it for about a mile to the nearby park where i stopped on mostly level ground checked fluid levels and for leaks. Headed then to the main road a little 2 mile cruise did exactly 1 pull from low 3rd lockup to OD it all was going great.

 

So i got a new APPS the next day (yesterday) and swapped that out. Decided i should drop the pan again and give it another filter based on the quality of previous fluid. Im now skimming through tiny shards of metal and actually found 3 rollers that are no longer within their cage and now in my waste oil bucket. So i filled her with fluid and test drove it again and realized my ABS sensor must be bad because the speedo isnt working below 30mph.

 

Yes i drove it last night after finding the bearing pieces. Went pretty good i just needed to make sure the APPS wasn't gonna stick so i didnt go far. But I also drove it to work and back today. It all went pretty good but I did keep it out of overdrive on my way home for fear of damaging my OD piston as thats the thrust bearing that im suspecting came apart.

 

So now its parked and cooling down. I got a new ABS sensor that i'll install at some point this weekend. I am borrowing the alignment tool from work and pulling the OD unit off the back because its about as much as i can do without pulling the whole transmission and im pretty sure i messed up that tolerance anyways or possibly my case is worn in the back and i need to get a shim or a new one. Finding the rollers was a little unsettling and i hate that i cant take it apart right now but i should have more to post at a later time

 

Its been several months now but thinking back and researching the proper way to measure for that piston spacer im really beginning to doubt that i measured that correctly. Im staying positive though.. I'll either pull the OD and see my problem immediately or I wont see it and I'll know what i have to do next. Im even tossing around the idea of ordering one of those preassembled overdrive cases from ebay at this point and just putting my guts or clutches in it and i'll even get my own alignment tool to keep. But this we wont know until i get under the truck and get it apart again.

 

I skipped alot of the deductive reasoning but it seems most likely to be the OD piston thrust bearing. But those rollers were skinny and short and the only thing that even uses rollers is those thrust bearings. My 47re only has 3 and 2 of them are in the OD unit. I have seen plenty of pictures of the carnage that happens to the thrust bearing under the sun shell in the main case but I really dont think these pieces of metal could have escaped that shell. However, I am noticing that OD engages in a really inconsistent and poor manner. There also happens to be a large hole in the casting where a piece of metal the size of the one i saw could have fit through by the park rod. Im not hearing any noises. Im not noticing any other issues with the transmission or how it drives other than a single instance where it felt like it was hunting for 3rd but i think its related to the ABS sensor because it started to hunt for 3rd immediately after the speedo came on and read about 33 and climbing then grabbed 3rd and lockup. And it does feel like 2nd comes on way too early at like 8mph but i cant tell with no speedometer until 30. More to come

 

edit- atf+4 is expensive and tough to find but i cant sell myself on buying the ever plentiful 5 gallon hydraulic fluid. but at the rate im using this stuff its looking more and more appealing. its hard enough to find more than 6 quarts of atf+4 around here but every store will have like 3 or more 5 gallon pails of tractor hydraulic fluids in several different grades. 15w40 t4 is also super easy to find in 5 gallons around here thankfully

Edited September 4, 2022 by 2000Ram2500

[2000Ram2500]

got the OD unit off the back. Bearing chunks falling out with it. Cooked the OD clutches messed up the piston and pulled that small snap ring out of its groove. I'll be swinging into my local transtar tomorrow and getting some of this stuff on the way.

 

It makes me wonder what caused this. I didnt replace any hard parts only clutches so in theory the clearance should have been fine. I wasnt able to tell for sure if the big bearing groove was worn out and the actual unit itself inside with the spring seems to be together correctly

 

When i rebuilt this thing the input shaft and rear/forward clutches were wasted. input up was cracked all the way through and the shaft had spun inside the hub. Im wondering if that had covered up an issue in the OD that i didnt notice when i had it apart

[2000Ram2500]

Alright so I’m not sure where I went wrong but I’ll never know. Bearing was the overdrive piston thrust bearing. Overdrive brake clutch was cooked. And when I put the unit in the press and removed the snap rings (yes both of them) it would not come apart. I’m not brave enough to find out why so I got an assembly from eBay. Should arrive today or tomorrow and I’ll be inspecting it thoroughly before installing it. 
 

it was highly recommended that I drill out the check valve inside the cooler line but my check valve is inside the cooler itself because I do not have the factory cooler lines and still have a check valve preventing back flow. Has anyone drilled that check valve out before and maybe has some pointers?

[Great work!]

So the fluid goes out the front pipe to the heat exchanger then to the cooler in the front of the truck and then back to the rear pipe. The rear pipe fitting goes to a hole bored in the bushing that supports the output shaft near its middle. The bushing is between the main guts and the OD. The output shaft is hallow and has holes cross drilled through it. All the lube for the planetary gears and OD unit goes through the shaft. Obviously crud has clogged the shaft and cooling system. Probably from the previous cooking and then the drilling of the check valve.

That shaft has to be cleaned out. There is a plug in the end that has to be removed now to get all the crud out. Your trans cooling system need replacing or serious flushing. The converter maybe full of crud just waiting to plug things up again. Your transmission was starved for lube and is likely irreversibly damaged. I recommend you find another transmission.

[2000Ram2500]

15 minutes ago, Great work! said:

So the fluid goes out the front pipe to the heat exchanger then to the cooler in the front of the truck and then back to the rear pipe. The rear pipe fitting goes to a hole bored in the bushing that supports the output shaft near its middle. The bushing is between the main guts and the OD. The output shaft is hallow and has holes cross drilled through it. All the lube for the planetary gears and OD unit goes through the shaft. Obviously crud has clogged the shaft and cooling system. Probably from the previous cooking and then the drilling of the check valve.

That shaft has to be cleaned out. There is a plug in the end that has to be removed now to get all the crud out. Your trans cooling system need replacing or serious flushing. The converter maybe full of crud just waiting to plug things up again. Your transmission was starved for lube and is likely irreversibly damaged. I recommend you find another transmission.

 You’re not the first to suggest another transmission I’ll say that.

 

i haven’t drilled the check valve it was just recommended that I do drill it out to prevent clogging.

 

i am aware that fluid does pass through bores within the shafts but haven’t yet come across any mention of issues with clogging inside those bores.

 

previous failure wasn’t “catastrophic” I just lost my rear forward clutch pack and thus all momentum but also had water contamination which was a root cause so I replaced all the clutches. Fluid condition at the time of draining and initial rebuild wasn’t anything other than black and no pieces of metal were found at that time at all. Input shaft wasn’t a problem but was found cracked not broken and then replaced.

 

All of this debris can be found inside the output housing and in my pan. I do suspect some pieces to be hiding above the valve body though. But I can’t see any way that any of that debris could have made it beyond the pan and filter from the back. This happened entirely inside the overdrive housing.

 

im no pro by any means im just trying to fix this thing. Im working on my back at my apartment with hand tools and borrowing space in a friends garage if he’s able to let me. Im just doing the best I can with the little income and facilities that I have. 

[Great work!]

I completely understand not having a garage good tools or money been there done that. I changed a tranny in the snow laying on a piece of plywood twice. My first and second auto tranny rebuilds did not work. A turbo 400 and 727.  The 3rd a Pontiac front wheel drive tranny was a success. I learned alot since then. Good luck. 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Great work!

[2000Ram2500]

10 hours ago, Great work! said:

I completely understand not having a garage good tools or money been there done that. I changed a tranny in the snow laying on a piece of plywood twice. My first and second auto tranny rebuilds did not work. A turbo 400 and 727.  The 3rd a Pontiac front wheel drive tranny was a success. I learned alot since then. Good luck. 

Also my first rebuild. These are pretty straight forward but plenty of room for error. I should be seeing the last of my parts today. I’ll be flushing it some more and crossing my fingers. If I have to do it again then I guess I have to do it again but I’m learning as I go. 

[2000Ram2500]

So far so good. Moral of the story is don’t assemble your overdrive the wrong way I guess. Hopefully I don’t have a different story in a week. ABS sensor didn’t fix the speedometer right away but I still had the digital one on my edge. Then after a couple hours of various driving on a couple different trips the speedometer came back and has been working so far. No check engine lights. All gears work although I haven’t tried manual 1 or 2 yet.

 

The only and probably the weirdest problem I’m experiencing right now is I have one main road through town that I have to take no matter what. And if I pass this one specific stop light my throttle goes limp. It’s about as close to a dead pedal as you can get without actually being a dead pedal. I still accelerate but it’ll barely go. Then when I’m clear of the area it returns to normal. Doesn’t matter if I’ve been running the truck for 3 seconds or 3 hours it will do it almost every time and it only ever happens at that one specific spot in town. Never anywhere else along the 10 freeway from almost coast to coast has it done that and I mean that literally. Only that one spot. There’s an chemical plant there but no power stations or anything else that would normally cause “interference” if that’s what’s going on. It’s also done it with 3 different APPS sensors, OE factory, Oreilly, and whatever Pensacola fuel injection sells. But this is really for another thread 

[Great work!]

Awesome there are some torrington bearings and a preload spring for the one way roller clutch inside the OD. They are easy to install facing the wrong way or backwards. I hope it works out.