winter blend

[Killer223]

So i get fuel at SamsClub. They have the highest turn over of tanks in town. They get 4 trucks a day. I asked the driver about when they will switch to the winter blend of fuel. He told me they do not have one. That they don't add anything.

 

I can't seem to find this info on the other fuel stations her in town. Maverick, or Conoco are the only other places i'd fill up as they have a kinda high turn over of tanks.

I could drive 12 miles out of town to a Pilot truck stop, but still I cant seem to find info on when/if they switch over to a winter blend.

 

does anyone know of a database of stations that sell Bio.

 

any information anyone can provide would be great.

 

Thanks.

 

[skellyman]

As far as a winter blend , just add 2-cycle TCW-3 oil and forget it , for Bio fuel look at National Bio-fuels web site , they have a drop down menu shows state by state or via Hwy route.

[Killer223]

i wasnt asking about lubricity, more the anti-gelling. i'ma try n get a 55 drum of #1 for the tractor to keep on hand on the cold weeks.

[rancherman]

I spec out my fuel for the 'herd' as 50/50 blend. And still have to keep a 300 gallon barrel of straight #1 for the really nasty stretches.

Where do you call home? Even at the truck stops, you'll have to search for the blended pump. Most truckstops offer straight #2 all winter, and if you want the blended stuff, you either do it yourself in-tank, or they'd have one pump with what they 'claim' to be winterized/blended. (notice the sarcasm here)

I don't know about what most truckers do, but my cousin runs #2 in the main tank (drivers side) and #1 in the curbside tank. He'll start it up on #1, and when the tank heater has run enough, he switches to the #2 side. He says 10-12 miles does the trick.

My rule of thumb for my off road stuff, and even the Ram, is 50/50 blend for all winter, and throw a little more #1 in for the real nasty blasts.. (stretches below 0 for several days) I really hate walking!

This is when I really don't miss with adding 2 stroke)

I'd really not recommend any type of bio diesel for wintertime! If you're south of mason Dixon line.. no problem!

I'll step on my toes here and claim this:

I'd rather run a blended (proper amount) of #1 and #2 before throwing gobs of 'conditioner' (which never works until you are 2 or 3 times the recommended rate)

Too many people confuse 'winter blended' with 'winter conditioned'. The quik trip owner who throws in a gallon of 'conditioner' per tanker load of #2, and claiming it's 'winterized'.. should be hung by the cohone's..

[Killer223]

thank you for the information.

i live in Flagstaff Az. 7000 ft elevation. yes it snows and get darn right cold in parts of Arizona. we usually have a week or two with day time highs of 0-10. i would like to be prepared.

again thanks again.

[rancherman]

one caveat to the blended fuel.. is lower power and poorer fuel economy. The btu's are really cut with the addition of #1.

And running a conditioner will cut into the lubricity thing too.. (benzene,acetane, etc) I believe #1 also has a poorer lubricity to it also.

sigh, wintertime sucks for us fuel oil burners.

Some are 'getting away with' straight #2, and gobs of conditioner.. or help with a tank heater.. which helps with the fuel consumption, and power... but then there's the lubricity thing. ( I'd add a little more 2 stroke then)

Either way, it's going to cost more to run in the winter... if you expect to make it home!

Edited November 7, 2014 by rancherman

[Mopar1973Man]

Thing is I would contact the station owner. He/she should know what they are selling as for employees they are typically uneducated or don't care. You could see about getting a barrel of PPD (pour point depressant) and mix your own fuel at home.

 

 

http://www.aglandsd.net/app/download/957479632/2014+Winter+Fuels+Guide_LR10151+(2).pdf

[Ilikeoldfords]

I would also try to stay away from the fuel conditioners. Most of them and an alcohol product and will take out fuel injectors in a hurry. If you have to use one, make sure its still a petroleum product. Power service iirc is mostly alcohol where the Howes is still an oil.

Last winter it was so cold where I lived that I even had #1 gel up on me. I had to run howes and #1 and keep a magnet heater on the fuel filter just to be safe!!!!! We saw temps down near -65* F multiple times though. Very brutal and I am glad I don't live there anymore. Get a good 50/50 blend of 1 and 2 and you should be good.

[dorkweed]

i wasnt asking about lubricity, more the anti-gelling. i'ma try n get a 55 drum of #1 for the tractor to keep on hand on the cold weeks.

 

 

2 stroke oil actually has a lower "pour point" than straight diesel fuel.  So adding to your fuel in whatever amount you do only helps you in that regard.  Just saying, of course.

 

I'd throw some 2 stroke in that barrel of #1 if you get it.

[Killer223]

Thank you, I understand now. I always use 2 stoke oil. I plan on getting some 55 gal drums for mixing.

Mike posted a pic that shows xylene, is that barrel strate xylene? I have and use that solvent all the time being a painter. Just wondering, if I could use that...

[Mopar1973Man]

Look up the MSDS sheet for the Cenex...

http://www.cenex.com/~/media/cenex/files/sds%20library/msdswinteraidiiwinteraidiii.ashx

[Killer223]

Thanks mike.

[rancherman]

One thing is for sure.... everybody has different opinions on what to use!

Fuel quality can and does vary by region.. what I've found that doesn't work, and does work, may or may not do the same for you!

I have suspended water problems, as do quite a bit of ULSD users.. (everyone now) The pipeline that serves the terminal, which then distributes to all the local dealers.... regardless of brand name.. There is no escaping the water plug they use to separate different batches coming up the line.

Lord help the guy caught with a tank of biodiesel when it hits 0.. or even had a tanker delivered with solidified residue from contaminated transports. I actually took the 1 inch filter off, and it still wouldn't run out the nipple. bio is a wonderful summer fuel!

Not to mention the final process to remove the last traces of sulfur! It's a hydrolization process.. basically a water scrub.

Since I've been burning ulsd 4-5 years now, I've had to increase my blend to a minimum of 50/50. Before that, I was getting by with a maximum of 50/50.

[diesel4life]

A good read from Wellworth products

Dissolved water is affected by the temperature of the fuel. ULSD at 30°F can only hold approximately 35% of the water it can at 75°F. As fuel cools it loses its ability to hold dissolved water. The water is actually pushed out of the fuel into tiny droplets. These droplets explain why you can look at fuel in a tank and see no water and yet a fuel separator or filter can constantly be accumulating water. Furthermore at temperatures below 32°F those water droplets turn to ice crystals. These ice crystals will quickly plug a fuel filter with a white ice that looks remarkably like wax to the uninformed. We regularly hear from people who believe their fuel is gelling at temperatures of 32°F or just below it. This icing was a major problem last winter and is already causing problems this season. To add to the problems caused by this high water content, bacteria and fungi can and do actually grow in fuels with little or no visible free water in the tank.

The size and shape of the paraffin wax seed crystals have changed dramatically in ULSD as compared to previous fuels. In ULSD these crystals are larger and regularly shaped than in the LSD and HSD fuels. These larger crystals cause a series of problems for users of ULSD.

First ULSD will “gel” several degrees sooner (warmer) than the previous fuels. The larger crystals are harder to “treat” to prevent gelling.

Next, there is a new cold weather operability problem that was previously unknown and until recently undefined. This is “Wax Dropout”, an occurrence that happens when ULSD is subjected to a “Cold Soak” period of approximately 48 to 72 hours. When the fuel is continuously at or below a given temperature for an extended period of time (Cold Soak); the larger heavier wax crystals agglomerate and drop to the bottom of the storage container. This paraffin wax has the further problem that it is not readily reabsorbed by the fuel as the temperature rises.

On Monday February 5th in the Northeast we had had a weekend where the temperature dropped to approximately 8°F and stayed there all weekend. On that Monday morning after approximately 72 hours of 8°F or colder we saw a massive region-wide problem with WDO. We have now tested for and seen this problem happen at temperatures between 12°F and 0°F.

The temperature where this WDO phenomenon occurs does not appear to directly correlate to any of the commonly used cold weather operability measures such as Cloud Point (CP), Cold Filter Plug Point (CFPP), Low Temperature Flow Test (LTFT), and Pour Point (PP) traditionally used to discuss and rate diesel fuels.

The traditional method for improving cold weather operability for diesel and heating fuels was to blend with Kerosene (#1 Fuel) or Jet A. Depending on ambient temperature, cost, and availability, blends of 10%, 20%, 30%, 40%, 50%, and even higher have been used to lower the CP, CFPP, PP of fuels.

Due to a combination of factors including EPA regulations, Catalytic Cracking, and Severe Hydrotreating ULSD has a lower aromatic content and less solvency. The EPA regulations requiring the fuel to be delivered to the vehicle with a Sulfur content of 15 ppm or less have eliminated High Sulfur Kerosene and Jet A as blending agents.

This situation has theoretically forced refiners to create an ULSD #1 (Ultra-Low Sulfur Kerosene) for blending purposes. There are however a number of significant problems with using ULSD #1 for winter blending. For one thing, the major refiners don’t want to produce this product. There are several reasons including but not limited to; limited demand, the need for segregated storage, the inability to use ULSD #1 for other uses, and high cost of production.

In short, the biggest problems are nobody wants to make ULSD #1, nobody has any place to store it, it is much more expensive than regular Kerosene, and last but not least, it doesn’t work anywhere near as well as the old high sulfur Kerosene.

The old industry “Rule of Thumb” for winter blending HSD and LSD was that for every 10% Kerosene or Jet A that you blended in you would improve (lower) the CP, CFPP, and PP by 5°F.

An example would be if you had LSD with CFPP of 10°F and you blended in 50% Kerosene you could expect to lower the CFPP to approximately -15°F. This standard has been used since before World War II.

Today using ULSD and ULSD #1 for blending the new “Rule of Thumb” is that for every 10% ULSD #1 you blend into ULSD you only improve CFPP by 2°F or less.

An example today would be starting with ULSD with CFPP of 10°F and you blended in 50% ULSD #1 you might lower the CFPP to approximately 0°F. We say might because we have seen a high number of instances where 10% ULSD #1 provides a 1°F or less improvement.

In order to successfully operate using ULSD an Anti-Gel product formulated to work with ULSD must be used. Many if not most of the old-line anti-gel products that have been on the market for 10, 20, even 30 years do not work effectively on Catalytically Cracked fuels including ULSD.

To successfully treat ULSD requires new formulations that include an Anti-Gel additive with “Seed Crystal Wax Modifiers”, Cold Flow Improvers, Wax Anti-Settling Agents, and Anti-Icing agents that have been modified to work with this new fuel.

[diesel4life]

This is the reason why all the OEM's have put so much R&D into antigel products. 2 cycle oil is good as a lubricant but does very little to prevent any of the moisture or algae problems associated with ULSD. The above article is several years old now and fuel suppliers have gotten much better with their winter blended fuels but if you happen to get caught in a cold snap with a tank of summer blended fuel or drive from a warmer region to a colder region and don't have the proper blend or a good anti gel 2 cycle oil is not going to do much for you. This happened to me 2 winters ago and is the reason I now run Schaeffers Diesel Treat 2000 in the colder months. It was around this time of year and I made a run to upstate NY for an oil seperator for a friend who owns ar roustabout buisiness. Filled up locally (65 gallons between my fuel tank and auxullary) and headed up. The temp difference between here and there was quite substantial (40+ degrees) and the filter on my AirDog plugged solid. I was very fortunate to be in the vicinity of a rest stop with a full service station so I was able to source another filter and some PS 911 and was back on the road within a few hours. Still, not a fun experience and it really woke me up!. I now carry spare filters for my AD in the winter and add a dose of Schaeffers at each fillup.

[dorkweed]

I'm of the belief that a fuel pump that pumps a lot of volume will help you in the winter months also.  I wanna have fuel returning to the tank via the return line.  It helps keep everything mixed/suspended etc.  My Walbro LP is primo in that regard.

 

I've also never had a gelling problem with the bio-blended fuel I have around here nor when I've driven thru Minnesota (where it's mandated) at below 0 temps.  Parked outside for over 24 hours straight in almost -20*F a few years ago and MightyWhitey started up no problems.

 

I've also never had my WIF light come one.................EVER!!!!

[Mopar1973Man]

I also think at least for the 24 valved truck with the VP44 and the injector return will warm the fuel eventually. This is one of the small reason I kept the stock filter can is it draw warmth from the manifold and warm the fuel as well. In 12 years of ownership I've never experienced a gel up problem. I've seen winter temperatures as low as -25*F and no issues starting or running issues. I might see a slight drop in fuel pressure but that's all.

[rancherman]

Good read^^^^^ Diesel4life!

Kinda backs up all the posts I've been trying to post on here for the last couple years.

Mike, Dork, both you are correct on the circulating part. Even my big ol dumb cummins 903 will heat up the fuel big time. I'm talking 200 gallons of warm fuel within an hour or so.

I've never seen a tank totally gelled up. It's ususally along the surfaces of the tank, and lines. a good circulating pump such as most are using for their vp's should keep it stirred up... plus whatever heat it picks up along the way.

[Killer223]

I love the wealth of information this group of people provide.

Thank you.

[Mopar1973Man]

This is the tough part there is so many people worried about excessive heat in the summer time on the VP44 PSG. Then we worry about the winter time gelling up and try to find way of putting heat in the fuel. I think it would be better off knowing what the fuel temperature actually is rather than guessin'.