I didnt want to mix up the threads by posting unrelated information so I figured I would start a new one.  This thread is for figuring out what works and what you find your truck likes.  

 

I did some more datalogging as of late and found that a more aggressive timing curve later in the rpm band, say 2500 + rpm, seems to pull harder up top.  Previous I was running tunes that maxed timing at 26*.  I took 2 tunes copied them and ran them back to back on the same stretch of road, same conditions.   I was not using wiretap for this so I will leave those details out

 

First Tune 29* max

  Quote

Race 29*
Number of Power Levels	6
RPM Limit	3700
Valet Mode
Maximum Valet Mode Power	35
Timing Parameters
Fuel Load Timing	1
Low PSI Timing Reduct	5
Timing Reduct Scaling	80
LightThrottle Timing Adv	1
Light Throttle Limit	35
Timing Equilzer
1500RPM	16
2000RPM	19
2500RPM	24
3000RPM	27
MAX	29
Boost Level Fueling - CAN Bus
0 PSI	88
1 PSI	90
2 PSI	92
3 PSI	94
4 PSI	98
5 PSI	102
6 PSI	106
7 PSI	110
8 PSI	114
9 PSI	118
10 PSI	122
11 PSI	126
12 PSI	130
13 PSI	134
14 PSI	138
15 PSI	142
16 PSI	146
18 PSI	150
20 PSI	150
22 PSI	150
24 PSI	150
26 PSI	150
28 PSI	150
30+ PSI	150

 

Second Tune 26* max

  Quote

race 26*
Number of Power Levels	6
RPM Limit	3700
Valet Mode
Maximum Valet Mode Power	35
Timing Parameters
Fuel Load Timing	1
Low PSI Timing Reduct	5
Timing Reduct Scaling	80
LightThrottle Timing Adv	1
Light Throttle Limit	35
Timing Equilzer
1500RPM	16
2000RPM	19
2500RPM	22
3000RPM	25
MAX	26
Boost Level Fueling - CAN Bus
0 PSI	88
1 PSI	90
2 PSI	92
3 PSI	94
4 PSI	98
5 PSI	102
6 PSI	106
7 PSI	110
8 PSI	114
9 PSI	118
10 PSI	122
11 PSI	126
12 PSI	130
13 PSI	134
14 PSI	138
15 PSI	142
16 PSI	146
18 PSI	150
20 PSI	150
22 PSI	150
24 PSI	150
26 PSI	150
28 PSI	150
30+ PSI	150

 

 

The interesting thing is the tunes are the same except for the timing above 2500 rpm.  If you look on the graph rpms hit that 2500 rpm mark at about line 20-21, each line is ~.3 seconds so 3 lines = 1 second.    You can see where timing jumps and also where boost jumps. 

 

Now keep in mind the graphs are not exact so take them with a grain of salt, but everything appears to show that the tune with higher timing up top gives faster time to 50 mph, and a faster ramp up of boost.  The higher timing tune appeared to reach 50 mph nearly 1 second faster.

 

as always studs are a good idea, but I am fairly sure anyone can run this timing above 2500 rpm.    If people are not blowing their heads off left and right with other tuners then there is no reason why this type of timing curve will hurt with the Quadzilla. 

 

 

Food for thought, open to other thoughts.

Weston won't build them at 330 bar, Ask @Carbur8tr about it.  

 

I should make it %100 clear we dont really know for sure if it is worth while to increase pop pressure.  It may be that running 7 x .011's at stock pressure results in the exact same power vs smoke as 7 x .012's at 330 bar.   

 

It could be even that 7 x.011's at stock pressure make more power than 7 x .012's at 330 bar.   

 

The big issue I have with hole thing is the attitude of your must be dense if you try something new.

Edited December 12, 20177 yr by Me78569

I understand this and agree completely. Honestly all I have seen for facts opposing this view is "experience" either way I hate my 6x.013 injectors and I'm guessing that they are not what they claim to be.. 6 holes are way overrated never ever buy them lol.. At this point id run ddp or ii injectors ?

So your experience with Weston sounds about like mine.  All of the information you provided is pretty much what I got back in addition to more or less what was a refusal to build what I was asking for.  Not to mention most of what was provided was either common sense, previously expressed "opinions", or more smoke.  Never did I really see were anyone, including Weston, brought anything to the table that wasn't either an old state of thought or just being negative towards the conversation. 

 

The attitude here amazes me and the fact that he refused the opportunity to make a sale and put money in his pocket also took me back a bit.  I think that the VP crowd has grown a little old and stale through the years in terms of performance and general thought.  Nothing ground breaking has really been brought to light in a while so things have just solidified a bit which is part of what we are dealing with now. 

 

The common thought of big injectors = lots of smoke and requires a big turbo is simply just not the case anymore.  Nick has given us the ability to command almost whatever we want with regards to fuel.  Now we still have to work with the mechanical limitations, but that's just what we are trying to do right now, work with what we have and tweak it so that we might be able to get a better performing truck all around.  It's important here to note that performance does not have to be balls to the wall all out stretch for every last pony.  Being responsible while having a truck that performs should not be too much to ask for and these days.

 

And for the last time, YES we know that we are potentially giving up a little power and you know what, I could care less. It's not like we have much to measure anyways, a vp is only good for maybe 650-700 max.  I think the days of everyone reaching for the limits of the vp are over.  If an educated person wanted big numbers they would find another injection method or buy a common rail. 

 

 

@Dodgeih  @Carbur8tr and others looking to run injectors set with higher pop off pressures.  Willing to do a BIG discount for 8 more people.  I am interested in seeing more data and am willing to heavily discount some DAP injectors.  There can be a benefit to knowing flows in LPM with calibration fluid at 100BAR for the nozzle for a better comparison and reduce variables from "brand to brand".  We also have digital gauges for measuring the pop off pressures.  I would like to see 10 sets installed at the higher pop off pressures with known flows at the nozzle.  @Me78569 and @kzimmer both are running DAP nozzles or injectors.  Please send a PM or email if you are interested.

 

 

@Carbur8tr my conversation was actually with Seth Haley but it was almost as if he copied and pasted from @Me78569 compd post... Like we both stated I think people are unwilling to try new things on a dying truck and are just repeating the old rhetoric without giving the new technology of the quad any thought. The fact that a quad and 7x.012-.014 can use more fuel than the vp can handle should negate the lost duration anyway, I think you could pull most if not all of it back with a larger pump stretch... No one can open their minds with old things... 

 

@dieselautopower I'll pm you. Talked to you a few months back on some injectors, but have just still been trying to figure mine out.. I'm over the 6 hole thing, they are junk and not made for the street period! 

Edited December 12, 20177 yr by Dodgeih

@dieselautopower I'm always willing to try something new.  Right now I have a set of Chris' SAC 7x.012s at 350 bar on the way.  What all were you wanting to collect data on?

 

@Dodgeih Ah I would expect that from Seth as well.  Good to know though, never touched base with him on the idea myself.

Edited December 12, 20177 yr by Carbur8tr

Nick and Kole are both running  7x.012 VCO and 7x.013 VCO respectively.  This is more of a discovery phase and big or small injectors can still give us data as they are currently unrepresented.  I am willing to work with either large or small.  Nick and Kole, do you have a preference for pop off pressure... seems 350Bar is where people want to start with the current data set given.

  On 12/12/2017 at 10:20 PM, dieselautopower said:

Nick and Kole are both running  7x.012 VCO and 7x.013 VCO respectively.  This is more of a discovery phase and big or small injectors can still give us data as they are currently unrepresented.  I am willing to work with either large or small.  Nick and Kole, do you have a preference for pop off pressure... seems 350Bar is where people want to start with the current data set given.

 

Based on my limited testing, i'd say anything under 350 BAR is fair game, ready to go, no problems and no extra work or special programming needed. 365 drives amazing, but the minor quirks still bug me a little. It's no big deal, its just not perfect. However... this thing is extremely fun to drive, and I'm convinced the higher pop help me get some extra fuel during spoolup without the added smoke. I just can't keep my damn foot out of it.

Edited December 12, 20177 yr by kzimmer

For those contacting me you can decide the size (up to 7x.015  VCO, 6x.013 sac or 7x.014 sac).... If there is anyone that wants to try 400BAR or higher?  Will include one free pop off pressure change.  Price to be discussed via PM, but its cheap...  ( want to support the efforts and see the outer limits of VP tuning)

 

for thought Back in 2013 I had some 400+ BAR  (I think it was 420BAR) 12v injectors that were really large we set up for a 12v guy who was running close to 30* of timing for his sled puller.  It was at the recommendation of a cam builder in WA (Boeing engineer... can't recall his name)  Followed up with customer and he said it ran great.   I know that is a different animal and a specific application, but 12v and 24v are both mechanically controlled injectors.

lol 400 bar.  I kinda wanna hahahahaha.   I think however that ~350 bar is the point of limited returns.  We don't really need to clean up much more offidle in order to be %100 clean.   My truck will pass emissions right now with an aggressive tune.   

 

However if we are going to throw crazy pop number out there I think we need to figure out how to figure out how much shorter the injection even is.  

 

Might be worth having a set built that are the same except for pop pressure and do some back to back testing with datalogging and videos.  Hard to argue with results right?  Same tune, same timing, just different pop

Edited December 13, 20177 yr by Me78569

Little help guys... What size should I get.. I have a modified hx35 62/64/12 over s475/96/1.32. I also have a spare 14cm housing for hx35. I'm currently thinking 7x.013 but idk sac or vco. What size/tip you guys think I should try? 

Remember this is a daily driver and I want it to be friendly and the least smoke possible.. Just looking for opinions

@dieselautopower

I need to mention that I found another somewhat rare situation that proves to be a little bit of a pain in the ***. Last week I went to pick up some furniture. I had to parallel park on a side street, between two vehicles, in a snow bank. It requires some pretty awkward throttle stabs, and I found out that the situation is quite a bit worse in reverse. Not exactly sure why. Maybe because the reverse gear ratio is very slightly smaller than 1st. Put it in reverse, no big deal, quick blip of the throttle, or heavy press with a quick let-off and brake after rolling over a chunk of snow/ice, and I'm stalling. It's something that I can work around, and the wife has never had an issue, so it's still pretty rare. Doesn't bother me much, just a little embarassing of there's people around, haha.

 

@Me78569 Let's say I want to keep these at 365 bar. (Because I do... 50% because I like the way it drives, and 50% because I don't want to spend ~4-5 hours on a saturday replacing and re-popping injectors when there's oh so many oil leaks I could be fixing). Are you interested in playing with:

 

1. An anti-stall feature, likely tailored to people with automatics and high injector pop pressures. Yeah... Probably not a big market for that... Would likely only need to be active at 0% tps.

 

2. Extra fuel while cranking. I totally understand that there are huge implications here, and the Quad will likely not be happy about controlling fuel while cranking when the battery voltage is being sucked down to nil. Still though... I am prepared to give the quad it's own 12V battery and diode isolate. In the name of VP44 science.

 

  On 12/13/2017 at 2:29 AM, Dodgeih said:

Little help guys... What size should I get.. I have a modified hx35 62/64/12 over s475/96/1.32. I also have a spare 14cm housing for hx35. I'm currently thinking 7x.013 but idk sac or vco. What size/tip you guys think I should try? 

Remember this is a daily driver and I want it to be friendly and the least smoke possible.. Just looking for opinions

 

I don't want to open up the SAC vs VCO debate, but I have not read a compelling enough argument to pick SAC over VCO. All I can tell you is that with the 7x.013's popping at 365 BAR, my theoretical maximum fuel flow is probably reduced a little bit, and I don't need wiretap to break 50psi with my setup. I haven't turned off the boost limiter yet, but wiretap is pretty much dead to me, lol. The tune I'm running now is a little hazy from 4-15 psi (totally made up those numbers), but it can be as clean as you want it to be.

 

When I bought my original cheap 7x.014's, it was because I didn't know much and I was paranoid about not having enough fuel. They smoked out the dyno shop at 63 psi and would hit 73 on the highway (more air). That was before v2 of course. Too much injector now = not enough tuning. Kinda.

Edited December 13, 20177 yr by kzimmer

@Dodgeih  7 x .012's should flow plenty and still be very friendly on the street.  If I can't cause issues with my setup, you shouldn't be able to.  


@kzimmer, If by interested you mean dont want to do it at all then yes lol.   I don't know that the quadzilla can manage an anti stall feature.  I dont know that the ecm updates us fast enough to catch rpms falling.  Also can't do extra fuel while cranking, the quad needs input from the ecm to do things, the ecm to quad commmunicatin is not active at that point.

Well it was a nice thought lol.

  On 12/12/2017 at 6:32 PM, Me78569 said:

I honestly dont know where the rumor of increased pop pressure = stalling issues,  I dont htink it is pop pressure, I think it is fueling being pulled to rapidly.  

 

 

My testing just doesn't support pop pressure being the reason for stalling.  My truck should be the worse in terms of this issue.

 

 

Uh because it happens and is not related to fuel being pulled rapidly, not directly. Low stall converter and high pop will stall a truck. 

  On 12/13/2017 at 2:18 PM, jlbayes said:

 

Uh because it happens and is not related to fuel being pulled rapidly, not directly. Low stall converter and high pop will stall a truck. 

I have the lowest stall converter Revmax sells. even with temps near 0* my truck will not stall when I put it in gear.  I would love to know why, but Kole isn't having issues either.  The only way I can make the truck stall my blipping hte throttle over and over if I do that ~30 times it might stall once.  

I believe it happens, but I dont see it in my testing, confused.

Edited December 13, 20177 yr by Me78569

  On 12/13/2017 at 2:18 PM, jlbayes said:

 

Uh because it happens and is not related to fuel being pulled rapidly, not directly. Low stall converter and high pop will stall a truck. 

Can you expand a little on the fuel comment?

 

Also a tight converter would certainly not help, injector aside, but the high pop pressure we are testing.  Both @Me78569 and @kzimmer have been successful with their high popped injectors.  I hope to add to that sometime this weekend if I get the time to install them.   Up until this point most of the information on injectors has been hearsay. I don't discredit those who build injectors, nor do I think that they are necessarily wrong, but a thought we do have to consider is that they have an agenda and they have to make money.  What the general population wants and needs does not always fall in line with those paving the way for a different thought. 

  On 12/13/2017 at 3:05 PM, Carbur8tr said:

What the general population wants and needs does not always fall in line with those paving the way for a different thought. 

 

I remember long ago with a 2 Cycle Oil Theory... Battled for a long time.

 

Now it @Me78569 pioneering the high pop pressure injectors and Quadzilla tunning...

From reading through here it seems that @kzimmer is having occasionally stalls with his at 365 bar.. That does seem like a stalling issue to me, because a daily driver should NEVER shall imo... I think that 340-350 would be the max for auto especially

@kzimmer has a stalling issue if he tries to force it to stall by blipping the throttle etc.    He can make it stall, but his wife has not told him that she has had it stall ( that's key when you consider she drives it mostly and is using the truck as a truck) .    I can make mine stall by blipping the throttle over and over.  I don't know if that is related to pop or injector size.  I never "tried" to make it stall before with the stock pop pressure.    We are missing the "constant" in our testing

It might be %100 related to pop, but we did not test using a stock setup.      Driving my truck I can promise you that you wont make it stall by trying to drive it.  

we dont have enough depth in testing to say if increasing pop is "worth it" but there is only one way to know.  Idle Hands, ya know? 

What are the real world Perks Vs Drawbacks. 

 

 

@jlbayes I wonder if the increased pop pressure was only done on smaller injectors during testing?   I have a theory that the larger the injector you have the higher the pop you can run without issues.  The ecm wont have to manage fueling across a huge % of command with big injectors.    IE: my truck idles at say fueling command of 300, vs a stock injector truck at 600.  if the ecm has to try and keep the truck from dying it must command a higher  % of fueling with stock injectors, thus taking more time to do so, which makes it easier to kill the truck.  

At this point I do NOT recommend guys bump their pop pressure unless they are willing to accept that they are going down a road not often traveled.  

 

Edited December 13, 20177 yr by Me78569