Ok Long story short, is still very long:

I had my NV4500 transmission go down a few weeks back, in Casper WY.  took is to Thomas Crawford auto repair. I had a very good experience . But now I've got issues.

History:

Took about  week to get one sent to the shop in Wy,  from Midwest transmission in zumbrota MN which isn't far from where I live.

The repair shop and I decided to upgrade to the 1 3/8th input shaft,plus all the other updates that Midwest Transmission and gear, does to these trans when rebuilding them.

For the clutch, I opted for the SBDD and new hydrolics. Hoped this would work better with my towing needs.

Finally , The installer put 4 qts of BG Ultra-Guard® Full Synthetic Gear Lubricant 75w-90 (sad that he charge me for 8 qts )

 

Developments:

From the start , the transmission/ clutch acted up.

The Hydraulics did not break the white tabs off the cap assembly and I noticed the tabs jutting back out when the clutch was released. The Tech said they stretched. so we removed the white cap and tabs, and inserted the hyds push rod in, and re-bolted it to the trans bell housing. Also, the truck shifted hard and notchy. and I was forced to coast . . .  through several intersections while hoping I could grab a gear before I was hit. Very frustrating. Other frustrating issues and lots of noise when clutch was  disengaged. (was told it was normal) Otherwise the clutch grabbed good, and did not slip on any pulls or steep hills coming home. But the intersection thing was happening to many times to be safe. 

 

Also a noticeable from the start, which i told the shop owner, And had him test drive with me. Was,.. THE HAND JIGGLING VIBRATIONS on the shifter when lightly resting my hand to check for gear roll-over vibrations while rolling.  But when deceleration or letting up on the throttle  in 4th around 35 mph down to 25 mph. there is vibration jiggling the shifter , this happens  most noticeably when downshifting with a load or on a downgrade (hill) 

I also get a slight tilting of the shifter forward and backward when accelerating slighting and decelerating . But only in third and fourth. which share the same Shift rial. All this is being done with gentle speeds and easy clutch releases. ((SHOP GUY SAID IT WAS a  "NORMAL SBDD CLUTCH BINDING GRABBING STUFF" cause of the middle pressure plate floating in there??)

 

1300 miles later the trans still shift notchy and sometimes will not go into 1st third , or reverse.  Not being unaware of the GL5 type fluids,  I looked into the BG Ultra-Guard® Full Synthetic Gear Lubricant  product the shop put in the trans.  and it was not a good choice because it is a GL5 . I then changed it to Amsoil MTG. A Gl4 and Midwest trans recommended fluid.  I filled it with 6 qts. ( yes 6 qts, and no, I don't agree about heat retention in the oil with six quarts. when top loading this trans I could barely see where six qts was coming up to the gears. However 5 qts is  commonly recommended. I may drop a quart if the temps look high. (Three and 3/4th quarts to the hole is not enough. and that is well establish as a failure point in these transmissions.

 

"Notchy shifting Update": today

In the shifty notchy progress,  two days later  125 miles, I did notice a bit better shifting but it will will argue 1st and reverse when stopped on a hill. Rolling is the only trick.

(not impressed) but better.

Note: the BG oil i removed, was fairly dark after 1300 miles and looked contaminated with graphite. but it was still transparent enough to look like dark honey when coming out of the drain hole.

Not a good sign.

Lastly when taking the shifter  cover off the shifter mount, on top the transmission, I noticed the graphite residue on the back side of the shifter plastic housing and the shifter main rod that goes into the trans to move the shift fork. (Seems like something is making deposits in the oil and on the metal, inside the Transmission.) 

The most concerning issue, to me was the Long crack looking "scratch" on the center 3rd and 4th gear shift rail. it looked cracked up past the housing. 

 

 

Time to call Tim at Midwest:

I called Tim, and update him on what i've found. and sent him pictures. When he responded today, he said it was a scratch according to the tech who assembled the transmission.( Kinda didn't like that the tech remembered he put in, a possibly sub standard part,  when rebuilding that transmission.)

Tim at midwest who has been apprised of the entire history of this project since its purchase. said to bring it in next week. (a 60 mile track ). But he said they will drop the transmission and take a look at things. 

 

Just to let you know this weekend I'm changing the carrier bearing, which shows no wear,  and the trans mount just to eliminate those two things from the possible cause of the vibration and giggling in the fourth gear. Also the vibration stops when disengaging the clutch, but comes right back when engaging it again. I haven't heard of others who have had this issue . But if you have a SBDD and any of this is normal let me know please

 

I'll let you know what else happens next week. It may take me longer with work , but Ill post what happens.

any insight is appreciated.

thanks Guys

Edited September 25, 20195 yr by Scottyv
opps spellings

I feel the same way and this is the reason I do everything on my truck myself, but I just didnt have it in me or my back to tackle this job alone. Maybe we should both head to Idaho and assist Mike in doing the jobs correctly.

4 minutes ago, 98whitelightnin said:

Close to two months. The SBDD  (south bend dual disk clutch) organic doesn't fully disengage and the truck lurches when im at a stop and trying to get it into gear. Hard shifting and hard on synchronous

Yup I heard these clutches are a little hit and miss. , If I cant get it fixed I will launch a bad review campaign and get my experiences out there. it already cost me on week with out my work truck and to jobs rescheduled.

 I have been reasonable and fair, and paid my bill in full have been promised a good warranty and a quality job.

( I'm fairly good at visits to  all the important places to post reviews.)

I can also create my own web page just to tell my story with pictures of the entire process and parts.

 

The installers had the truck for a week a few weeks ago and instead of dropping the trans and seeing what the problem was, they put two new sets of hydro's in it. I followed sb hydro testing procedure and ruled out hydro issues before I too it back to them. Now im playing the waiting game. This was the best shifting nv4500 I'd ever driven before this clutch went in.

Edited October 5, 20195 yr by 98whitelightnin

Yep, I was stuck at the mercy of who was able to get it done and get me and my family back to Minnesota. "Thomas Crawford Auto" repair in Casper Wyoming, Is who did the work, But Landon at south bend , and Tim, Bud, and Scott at Midwest  are the product warrentors, So I'v got three entities to work with. Thomas would definitely have it back in his lot if it was close. However I would think between the three of them they would coordinate a fix. I'll have to see if I can get them to do that, Next. 

I will say that no one has been rude or obnoxious. But I just have yet to see a good solution here. really disappointing so far. I'll stay positive for now.

If it breaks then I guess they have a repair anyways. 

11 minutes ago, 98whitelightnin said:

The installers had the truck for a week a few weeks ago and instead of dropping the trans and seeing what the problem was, they put two new sets of hydro's in it. I followed sb hydro testing procedure and ruled out hydro issues before I too it back to them. Now im playing the waiting game

Who did the clutch install, on yours?

Standard transmission and gear on ft worth Tx. Really a good group up there and they seem to want to help me but havent got it fixed yet. I called sb a few weeks ago and left a message but never received a return call.

1 minute ago, 98whitelightnin said:

Standard transmission and gear on ft worth Tx. Really a good group up there and they seem to want to help me but haven't got it fixed yet. I called sb a few weeks ago and left a message but never received a return call.

Hmm You can call and ask for Landon at SB, he was who I spoke with, I've also read several thread where guys mentioned a Peter. But That's where I'm headed next, as far as who to call.

 

I guess I'll be able to have the transmission and drive line kinda ruled out. So I'm thinking that SB will have to think out what they can do, Probably I'll work on them setting up a shop they use here to take it out. If it turns out to be a bad install I'll be surprised. But then it'll go on Thomas Crawford's dime. If it's a bad clutch then South Bend's dime. Midwest has all but promised its not their transmission, that causing the issue. (But It still could be that someone did't shim the input shaft or a bad internal part.)

Just have to keep pursuing it. Other wise I'll have no confidence in it and be stuck on some High desert road again.

 

your sound like the fork was put in wrong or the through-out bearing is not doing its job. I think mine is the pilot bearing?

Definitely make-them-fix-it , and if you give them opportunity to do it and they wont, then it's time for Court. Just keep records on your progress and writ it down. the judge wont want to read a lot.  So, if you bullet point it and then give the details for back records he'll be prone to side with you and get you some justice.

Majority of time its the installer fault. 

 

Like I've installed over 4 clutches in the last month. Every single time I install a clutch I get the transmission to full mate before ever tightening the bolts. I use slide pins for lining up and this makes it perfect. Just done a Chevy/GMC 350 yesterday and it worked out just perfect. Put the pins in the bellhousing slid the transmission right up to the bellhousing in a single motion. If your pulling the transmission in with the bolts you now for sure messing up the installation. Most likely have a misaligned input shaft and forcing it to line up this is bad. 

 

Even when I did the clutch and transmission install on my truck on the floor. Same thing line it up and slide it all the way home. by hand BEFORE putting any bolts in the housing. 

 

NEVER PULL THE TRANSMISSION IN WITH THE BOLTS!

 

SB Trick by Peter: If the clutch refuses to allow the transmission to seat. Install the slave cylinder. Have a second person to press the pedal down will the other now pushing. The clutch disc will come lose in the flywheel allowing the input shaft to align the disc freely. 

 

Edited October 5, 20195 yr by Mopar1973Man

I may have figured out the issue with my truck not wanting to shift. SB has a hydraulic testing procedure that states to remove the slave cylinder and put a steering wheel puller in its place. Tighten puller down as far as you can with fingers and then tighten another 7/8” with ratchet.  I jack the rear end off the ground and do this and the tires spin while in gear, as do they with the slave installed and pushing the clutch pedal to the floor. Go in another 3/8 of an inch for a total of 1 1/4” deep, and the tires do not spin. I get a small bump of an inch or so when initially going into gear but that’s it. To remedy this I ordered an adjustable slave rod but Ryan at SB says the extra length of that rod will just cause the slave to push back in on itself and not actually allow for more slave rod travel, this would have been nice to know before ordering but getting anyone to answer the phone has been tough lately. He gave me a dorman part number CS360047, which is a metal slave for a mid 90’s Jeep Wrangler. He said that the rod for that slave is actually shorter than their slave but it it’s got a longer stroke and will push it out to the 1 1/4” that I need.  I’ve ordered that and it along with the adjustable rod will be here tomorrow. Hopefully I can finally get this thing shifting as it should, I’m tired of being under it daily trying new remedy’s that don’t work.

Edited October 9, 20195 yr by 98whitelightnin

??? Wow...

 

Maybe it was a good think I switch from South Bend to Valair. Nothing special required for the Valair Dual Disc I installed. Still using NAPA master / slave cylinder. 

SB said they have had to use that jeep slave on a few of their triple disk clutches but that i shouldnt have to on a dd. I got the feeling that ive been blown off and they want nothing to do with me or helping me at this point. I had every intention of going with valair again but was told that sb was better by a friend that installed and ran both.

Mine is just using the stock mopar slave and master, mine where almost new so I used them. weird

1 hour ago, 98whitelightnin said:

SB said they have had to use that jeep slave on a few of their triple disk clutches but that i shouldnt have to on a dd. I got the feeling that ive been blown off and they want nothing to do with me or helping me at this point. I had every intention of going with valair again but was told that sb was better by a friend that installed and ran both.

Man that sounds so frustrating. I was told by Landon at SB  once the slave is out you should have no more then 7/8" from the housing edge to the fork. But  it is kinda hard to be exact. Im gonna do this test just because the tabs didn't break of the white retainer  ... after the initial install by the Tech.  But as I said before Im thinking its the Pilot bearing because of the wobbly vibrations on the shift when decelerating in fourth gear from around 40mph to 25 mph.  How-ever wouldn't it vibrate in all gears and not just fourth? 

Also , If this is what it is. I wondering if the inspection hole on the back of the bell housing passenger side, might be a way I could get a look at it. But i'm not sure. Probably I'll have to pay to have it dropped, and them take a look. 

Edited October 9, 20195 yr by Scottyv

13 hours ago, Scottyv said:

Im gonna do this test just because the tabs didn't break of the white retainer 

 

One of the feel reason I hate hydro kit that are pre-bled. Everyone assumes that the hydro's are ready to go out of the package. I would rebleed the system and start over. The hydro's will pull the holder strap with one pedal press. If there is air in the system it will NOT move and the white holding tabs will hold the rod. I've seen this a few times. Just best to remove the entire hydro system again and rebleed as I got the article.

 

 

Bleed part is towards the bottom of the article.

4 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

One of the feel reason I hate hydro kit that are pre-bled. Everyone assumes that the hydro's are ready to go out of the package. I would rebleed the system and start over. The hydro's will pull the holder strap with one pedal press. If there is air in the system it will NOT move and the white holding tabs will hold the rod. I've seen this a few times. Just best to remove the entire hydro system again and rebleed as I got the article.

 

 

Bleed part is towards the bottom of the article.

 

I would agree with the bleeding of the preblead units based on my same experience. Could it be done buy just dropping the slave and leaving the master in place?

seem that would work.

The wobble vibration in fourth gear seems to be a different issue. Seems the shifter socket is engage directly into the fourth gear shaft. this make me think its the pilot bearing. Any chance anu scope could be placed into the inspection hole and this could be seen?

 

 

Don’t think so as pilot bearing is on front side of clutch disc however someone else here likely knows better than I 

On 10/10/2019 at 12:28 PM, Royal Squire said:

Don’t think so as pilot bearing is on front side of clutch disc however someone else here likely knows better than I 

 

Humm thats what I thought.No real gap there to peek in and see. Thinking the first clutch plate had room but then why would it?

Yup I hate to think I have to drop it just to find out . But ...

Edited October 21, 20195 yr by Scottyv

This new slave has a bleeder, like a brake caliper. Do I need to remove the entire setup from the truck to bleed it of do yall think I can get all the air out with it still on the truck?

Would anyone with an nv4500 and dd clutch be willing to do me and favor? Jack the rear end of your truck off the ground and with the truck idling, hold the clutch pedal all the way to the floor, go through the gears and tell me if the tires spin at all. Do they spin when you initially go into gear? Do they spin the entire time its in gear? Do they stay completely still?

Got the new slave installed and it shifts better. Going into 1 or 2 from a stop is alot easier now and with the rear tires off the ground and the clutch pedal held to the floor, the tires barely move. The pedal is harder to press now and the clutch engages at the very top of the pedal. If I didnt get it bled good enough, would it make the pedal harder to push? I feel like i bled it real good but im paranoid since this is y first one

OK, an up date:

 

Had it in to the Guys at Midwest, like i said, and they did not drop it and see what was up. with in a week and about 200 mile its now shuttering in 3rd gear on deceleration.  also when grabbing onto the shifter in prep to shift from third, it will come out of gear upon deceleration, before engaging the clutch ( at all speeds and rpm's, for the third gear) It just pops right out with no engagement of the clutch. I know you can time the rpm's and deceleration to shift with out engaging the clutch but this will do it with no effort, you only have to let up on the accelerator.

I called Thomas Crawford in WY, and he called Scott at Midwest Trans. (Both are nice guys, so I'm not complaining) Its just no fun to re-do work for anyone.

Well, I got a call from Scott at Midwest and he agree to take out the trans in a few weeks, when his shop slows down. I'm good with that, as I have customers to take care of, and i need the truck to do that. 

I'll let you know what comes next. (Phantom, Clutch or Transmission.) 

 

Edited October 22, 20195 yr by Scottyv

13 hours ago, Scottyv said:

also when grabbing onto the shifter in prep to shift from third, it will come out of gear upon deceleration

 

Bearing failure. The mainshaft to moving forward and backwards enough to pop the shift ring out of gear.