Posted February 24, 201510 yr I should be hopping on the dyno this weekend (As long as my brother doesn't blow up his 05 first) Couple of questions: Anyone have any thoughts on which level for a smarty only run? Any thoughts on which level for a smarty + TST run? And for the fun part! Guessing Give your guess for: Smarty only and smarty + TST My sig is up to date!
February 25, 201510 yr Author W&F What was your setup on your 02? I want to get around 600-620 here at elevation. Lots of work to do yet!
February 25, 201510 yr Author 4th will give you similar hp, but less torque than 5th. I saw a 50 ft/lb drop in tq doing my runs in direct instead of OD, as the turbo doesn't have time to light at the lower rpms in direct. How you load the engine prior to the green light is how good your torque will come off. Personally I get to 1400-1500 rpms and start aplying brake and throttle to get the load/boost up and then let her rip. The total and mid range power is very different than just dropping the hammer. Take a few seconds each run while you prep to ensure the motor it up to operating temp as well. I'm scared that if the torque comes on too early (With the cold weather I see 10+ psi of boost at 1300rpm) It'll either blow the clutch off or snap the input on the trans. Thanks for the advice too!
February 25, 201510 yr W&F What was your setup on your 02? I want to get around 600-620 here at elevation. Lots of work to do yet! II silver 62 turbo, ATS intake and Exhaust manifolds, BD 155 7 hole injectors, BD TC and VB in otherwise stock auto tranny. Fass HPFP 150 transfer pump, II HRVP44 Edge Comp Hot unlock "Can't remember the version but it was the older one that did better HP / tq #'s than the newer versions, I tried several over the years, kept having the glitch of the comp not wanting to power on when cold or if it did it only lit up a random leds and did not do anythingwhich after about 6 version changes they finally got it" 5x3 & 5x4 ALWAYS did better than 5x5 on the comp by 5-15 hp consistantly. 3.54 gears with 265/75/16 tires most of the time. For 600+ you will need to get into twins or a 64-66 size turbo or run injectables with a silver 62. 150 injectors should get you there but will be close to max on fuel only. At elevation I would not even consider a bigger single I would go twins hands down no questions asked, even if I were to ever go the route of performance again it would definitely be twins right off the get go. I'm scared that if the torque comes on too early (With the cold weather I see 10+ psi of boost at 1300rpm) It'll either blow the clutch off or snap the input on the trans. Thanks for the advice too! On an inertia dyno you have no worries of that especially if running in 4th. You are already rolling at a fair speed when getting on it hard not like doing a dead stop launch on the street, do not worry about that in this arena especially if you are under 500++hp which you are..............No worries. Do it in 4th and 5th if you get the chance just to see the difference it makes in the TQ #'s.
February 25, 201510 yr Author I tow with this thing so a single isn't even an option for me. Plus I dropped a good chunk of change on my phatshaft. Plans are for an s475 underneath, water meth, studs, springs, pushrods, and a built 5 speed. We'll see where that gets me. I'll do a 4th and a 5th run if I get a chance!
February 26, 201510 yr The only reason I ran in 5th for my most recent dyno tuning was my tires. They are only 75 mph rated, so I didn't want to be taking them to 100+mph at full power. As for the question on how dyno's measure, their output is horsepower and if you give it a tach signal you can get engine torque. I know there is the whole hp doesn't matter, it's torque vs hp is better debate... but that's what it is. Horsepower is how fast work can be done, and the dyno computer knows how much work it takes to accelerate the drum, the faster the work is done the more hp is made. Without knowing how fast the vehicle engine is spinning only horsepower can be measured. Just like with our rigs, torque is great but it's nothing without horsepower. If you think the hp doesn't matter then hook up to a load and try to climb a big grade at 1600 rpms in 5th and again at 2500 rpm in 5th. On any of the ~00ish and newer rigs the torque should be the same but there is a decent difference in hp. 2500 rpms will pull the hill much easier, and the power requirement is higher with the increased speed. Using the OEM numbers from my 2005 there is 610 ft/lbs at 1600 which means the motor is making 185hp, and at 2500 there is at least 555 but less than 610 ft/lbs. At 2500 there is at least 264hp being made, and possibly up to 290. That extra 79-105hp is going to make a HUGE difference in towing, even thou the torque is the same. I love torque, but at the end of the day it's useless without hp.
February 26, 201510 yr The only reason I ran in 5th for my most recent dyno tuning was my tires. They are only 75 mph rated, so I didn't want to be taking them to 100+mph at full power. As for the question on how dyno's measure, their output is horsepower and if you give it a tach signal you can get engine torque. I know there is the whole hp doesn't matter, it's torque vs hp is better debate... but that's what it is. Horsepower is how fast work can be done, and the dyno computer knows how much work it takes to accelerate the drum, the faster the work is done the more hp is made. Without knowing how fast the vehicle engine is spinning only horsepower can be measured. Just like with our rigs, torque is great but it's nothing without horsepower. If you think the hp doesn't matter then hook up to a load and try to climb a big grade at 1600 rpms in 5th and again at 2500 rpm in 5th. On any of the ~00ish and newer rigs the torque should be the same but there is a decent difference in hp. 2500 rpms will pull the hill much easier, and the power requirement is higher with the increased speed. Using the OEM numbers from my 2005 there is 610 ft/lbs at 1600 which means the motor is making 185hp, and at 2500 there is at least 555 but less than 610 ft/lbs. At 2500 there is at least 264hp being made, and possibly up to 290. That extra 79-105hp is going to make a HUGE difference in towing, even thou the torque is the same. I love torque, but at the end of the day it's useless without hp. I agree^^^^^, but where in the power band that both HP and Torque come on are important also....................especially when towing.
February 26, 201510 yr The only reason I ran in 5th for my most recent dyno tuning was my tires. They are only 75 mph rated, so I didn't want to be taking them to 100+mph at full power. As for the question on how dyno's measure, their output is horsepower and if you give it a tach signal you can get engine torque. I know there is the whole hp doesn't matter, it's torque vs hp is better debate... but that's what it is. Horsepower is how fast work can be done, and the dyno computer knows how much work it takes to accelerate the drum, the faster the work is done the more hp is made. Without knowing how fast the vehicle engine is spinning only horsepower can be measured. Just like with our rigs, torque is great but it's nothing without horsepower. If you think the hp doesn't matter then hook up to a load and try to climb a big grade at 1600 rpms in 5th and again at 2500 rpm in 5th. On any of the ~00ish and newer rigs the torque should be the same but there is a decent difference in hp. 2500 rpms will pull the hill much easier, and the power requirement is higher with the increased speed. Using the OEM numbers from my 2005 there is 610 ft/lbs at 1600 which means the motor is making 185hp, and at 2500 there is at least 555 but less than 610 ft/lbs. At 2500 there is at least 264hp being made, and possibly up to 290. That extra 79-105hp is going to make a HUGE difference in towing, even thou the torque is the same. I love torque, but at the end of the day it's useless without hp. Close, but not quite. At the end of the day, torque is useless without SPEED HP is nothing but an equation of torque versus speed. Torque is measurable, HP is calculated. always is, always will be. HP is just an answer to a simple algebraic equation. At the end of the day, without SPEED torque is useless. You can't ever, ever, ever have SPEED without enough torque to spin up a given load. How fast it spins up, and maintains, is torque. All day long. Look at a gas motor, where the torque falls flat on it's face a little more than halfway up the rpm scale... and HP starts to decline too.... The only reason HP doesn't fall off as quick as the torque, is the SPEED of the engine. The amount of twist is less, but the speed of the twist is still getting a lot of work done. But not as much per hour. This may help. It's from my combustion engineering handbook: HP=(RPM * T) / 5252 T would be torque, not time. I've had this argument with a lot of people ever since my high school physics days. Ya can't rewrite basic physics. edit, I took your numbers from above, and plugged em in to the well known equation. ding. spot on. Those cummins boys got it spot on. Imagine that. What most don't realize is, ANY TRANSMISSION loses efficiency in any direction away from 1:1 ratio. 1st gear for example, is terrible efficiency. Does a fantastic job at increasing torque.. When in straight through gear (which mine is not.. they go through a counter shaft too) that is when it's close to 100% efficiency. I'm not talking about torque multiplication. (which is what a transmission is, a torque multiplier) I'm talking about the power loss through a very large gear, and a smaller gear. This too is a simple physics phenom. A simple 6:1 gear is not going to increase torque the full 600% Closer to 550% One that is 1:1 will be much closer to being 100% efficiency. Edited February 26, 201510 yr by rancherman
February 26, 201510 yr Well here is what I put down last weekend. This was with the Smarty on 6 and the edge comp on 5x5. I basically make out the turbo and I'm now in the market for a replacement turbo... looking to hit somewhere between 550-600hp and about 1200ftlb of torque.
February 26, 201510 yr Author Mulcher you should have tried it without the smarty... Would have been interesting to see! 550-600 you'll probably need a 64mm and that's laggy. Go twins!
February 26, 201510 yr Most Mustang Dynos are load cells but can be used as inertia as well, did you do the runs loaded or just as inertia with no load and simply running up the drum uncorrected? Is your comp hot unlocked or not, Probably could have hit 450 and 1000 with comp alone on 5X4 which has always done better on my runs as well as a lot of others I have seen over the years. My 02 was 560 hp fuel only with silver 62 BD 155 sticks and hot comp and II HRVP44 which only gained me 40 hp over regular SO pump. With this setup and injectables 600 would be easy, silver 62 was a fun turbo.
February 26, 201510 yr My old dynameter was a simple water brake. hook her up to a garden hose. input shaft coupled to the engine, going into a torque converter looking apparatus. instead of a output shaft that spun, it was a simple load bar hooked to a 'scale'. To increase drag, I simply screwed down on a wheel, which adjusted the position of the fins in the 'torque converter'.. and the resulting drag was measured at the output side of the load. There was 2 gauges. first one measured rpm, second one was what was being read on the scale. From that, it's easy to calculate HP. When we take a NV5600's gear ratio, 1st 5.63 2nd 3.38 3rd 2.04 4th 1.39 5th 1.00 6th 0.73 Reverse 5:63 and attach it to an engine of say 800 ft. lbs. We would expect an output shaft torque of 4504 in 1st, 2708 in 2nd, 1632 in 3rd, 1112 in 4th, 800 in 5th, and 584 in OD. (before gear box inefficiencies) Now, multiply each of THOSE by the rear axle ratio.. 3.54 or 4.11 to get the actual 'to the ground' applied torque... Minus the inefficiencies of the gear box and right angle direction change of the rear axle. Theoretically, It shouldn't matter what gear we are in when calculating HP. 'as long as gear box inefficiencies are not a factor' Torque to the ground will be much higher in lower gears, as well as much slower rpm. Math is math. but like I said before, large gear/small gear differences make up a huge part of the driveline loss. Straight through would be best, but my NV's aren't built this way. 5th is 1;1 but is running through a countershaft. It's not ideal, but the gear size is as close to 'efficient' as we can expect. We are applying almost 50% more torque to the ground in 5 gear @ 2500 rpm, as compared to 1600 rpm in 6th. This is the only reason it feels 'more powerful' at high engine speeds. 50% change is HUGE on a butt dynameter!
February 26, 201510 yr and attach it to an engine of say 800 ft. lbs. We would expect an output shaft torque of 4504 in 1st, 2708 in 2nd, 1632 in 3rd, 1112 in 4th, 800 in 5th, and 584 in OD. (before gear box inefficiencies) Now, multiply each of THOSE by the rear axle ratio.. 3.54 or 4.11 to get the actual 'to the ground' applied torque... Minus the inefficiencies of the gear box and right angle direction change of the rear axle. Theoretically, It shouldn't matter what gear we are in when calculating HP. 'as long as gear box inefficiencies are not a factor' Torque to the ground will be much higher in lower gears, as well as much slower rpm. Math is math. but like I said before, large gear/small gear differences make up a huge part of the driveline loss. Straight through would be best, but my NV's aren't built this way. 5th is 1;1 but is running through a countershaft. It's not ideal, but the gear size is as close to 'efficient' as we can expect. We are applying almost 50% more torque to the ground in 5 gear @ 2500 rpm, as compared to 1600 rpm in 6th. This is the only reason it feels 'more powerful' at high engine speeds. 50% change is HUGE on a butt dynameter! If your talking the 1600 vs 2500 I mentioned earlier then you misread what I typed. It was all in 5th gear, so the ratio's don't matter a lick. The only change is horsepower... which is a single word used to describe torque at speed. In my example the torque to the ground is identical, but the ability to get up the hill is not the same. Some interesting numbers if you run torque to the ground at different gearing options (as you mentioned). Let use 3.42, 3.73, and 4.10. Lets also assume a flat torque curve of 800 ft/lbs. Speed in 60 mph in direct gear. Let's say that the twisting for required to keep the load moving is 1000 ft/bs. The 3.42 truck needs to make the most torque at the engine, 292 ft/lbs followed by the 3.73 at 268 ft/lbs, and finally the 4.10 needs the lowest at 244 ft/lbs. Okay there is your gearing, here is the hp kicker... all 3 engines are making the exact same hp, 118.8119. Why? Horsepower is real, it's the rate that the work is done at and they are all doing it at 60 mph. The work is twisting the tire with a force of 1000 ft/lbs, the speed is 624 rpms (tire size I used).. which is how we get 118hp. I agree you can't argue with physics, but horesepower is real. Given any two of the three, hp/tq/rpms, you can calculate the 3rd. So torque is just as easily calculated. I've been playing with the calculations for a long time, they blow most people away. Torque is useless without horsepower... I know you call it speed, but that's what horsepower is! Horsepower is the rate at which work is done, torque is the amount of work that is done. Inertia dyno's measure horsepower, not torque. The twisting force required is set, so all the varies is the rated of acceleration. That's a horsepower measurement. So a chassis dyno will measure horsepower, but a engine dyno will generally measure torque and use rpms to calculate horsepower. Both are in-fact measurable, it's just a matter of how. Think about the old way horsepower was measured. A vertical lift of 550 lbs 1' in 1 second, that is measuring horsepower not torque. The only variable is speed, just like my 1600 rpm vs 2500 rpm example.. that's a horsepower difference and it will win the hill climb every time. Water-brakes are great ways to measure. The torque measurement on the GE T-700 engine I fly with works on a similar principle of deflection. Torque is easier to measure this way, as there isn't (that I know of) a good way to measure horsepower while the engine is installed and functional.... you can measure hp, just not in this instance. FWIW the engines produce up to a combined 1427hp and 700 ft/lbs of torque to keep the helicopter flying, which can be up to 23K lbs but generally 17-18K. By the time the gearing reduction occurs there can be around 50K ft/lbs to the main rotor :-) My motor makes more than 900 ft/lbs (flywheel) but doesn't have the hp to make it fly, not even close. Turbines are also rated in SHP, not torque. I just happen to know the torque numbers from some GE training. Additionally look at a NV5600 diagram again, it initially appears that 1:1 is on the counter-shaft but it's not. There is a direct link of the input to the ouput in 5th. Here is a good image of a NV5600. There is a 5th gear c/s gear (a), but there in no reciprocal 5th gear. The 5th c/s gear is simply called the 5th gear, but not used for direct drive it's more the c/s input gear. 5th gear is direct and connects at (I) when it's used. The c/s is still spinning but its not transferring any power. I am not sure how the shifting forks of a NV5600 work, but the direction must be reversed on the 5/6 fork. So 5th is fwd on the shifter and fwd on the fork, and 6th is back on the shifter and back on the fork.. otherwise 6th wouldn't engage with a back shifter.
February 27, 201510 yr Great write up AH64. The HP torque discussion is a hot button topic for me. It's more complex than many people realize, but a fun conversation. Which is what I like about this board, things are fun discussions and not arguments, or bashing.
February 27, 201510 yr Lets break out the over-sized boxing gloves for you's guys!!! Great discussion!!
February 27, 201510 yr Solving for engine horsepower using the ET method. This method uses the elapsed time needed to complete a quarter mile run. It is used to give an estimate of vehicle(car, truck, motorcycle) engine or motor horsepower. Weight should include the mass of the vehicle, driver and passenger. http://www.ajdesigner.com/phphorsepower/horsepower_equation_et_method_horsepower.php And other options of calculation. http://www.iprocessmart.com/techsmart/formulas.htm http://www.wallaceracing.com/et-hp-mph.php And if you really like details then this is for you. http://www.stealth316.com/2-calc-hp-et-mph.htm
February 27, 201510 yr Most Mustang Dynos are load cells but can be used as inertia as well, did you do the runs loaded or just as inertia with no load and simply running up the drum uncorrected? Is your comp hot unlocked or not, Probably could have hit 450 and 1000 with comp alone on 5X4 which has always done better on my runs as well as a lot of others I have seen over the years. My 02 was 560 hp fuel only with silver 62 BD 155 sticks and hot comp and II HRVP44 which only gained me 40 hp over regular SO pump. With this setup and injectables 600 would be easy, silver 62 was a fun turbo. This Dyno was loaded and they did set the off set. I did do 2 other pulls with just the comp and the best group was what I posted with the smarty and comp My comp isn't the hot unlocked version. The tech told me I probably wouldn't get much more HP out of the HE351 and 100hp sticks. He was saying that I was basically out of air flow. I talked to Alex at Industrial Injection and I think I'm going to get a Phatshaft 62/80 for now then add an S480 to it later.
February 27, 201510 yr Yep. HP IS real. It's a number on a piece of paper. I can see it on paper, we both can write it down on a piece of paper!! (it's a simple answer to 2 basic inputs) we can 'see' horsepower in amount of work done, (pile of dirt in one hour) or who crosses the finish line first in a timed event... it's the 'result'. When we stomp the accelerator, it's torque we feel. we don't 'feel' horsepower. Ya gotta have torque FIRST. Torque makes speed. If the load overcomes the torque, it cant spin up. No way around that. Without torque, there is no way an engine can spin up to speed. No speed, No horsepower. Again, Hp is just a figurative number or quantity of the amount of work done in a specific time. How do you measure work? how heavy the box is, and how many boxes are moved per hour. Same here. How much twist ( torque) *how heavy a box can be lifted* and how fast the twist is * how fast the box can be moved from point a to point b* I love arguing this, cause it's been misinterpreted for eons. Perhaps if I wasn't a dumbass 'farmer' It'd be easier to accept. But, I won't lose sleep over it. Thousands and thousands of mechanical engineers have paid a lot of money to get their degrees, and they all learn from the same book they read the first day: 'modern internal combustion engineering 101'. There isn't a 'dynameter' ever built or used today that has a 'horsepower sensor' They'll certainly have a horsepower output reading... but the ONLY WAY THEY CAN GET THAT OUTPUT is using SIMPLE math from gathering torque, and speed. Yep, your correct that any algebraic equation can be solved with 2 inputs, to derive a 3rd. we can find T, we can find HP, we can find rpm. with any of the 2. I learned that in 7 th grade. BUT, when someone give you a HP 'number' as one of the 2 inputs, you gotta remember that number was not from a sensor. it was already derived from the torque vs. speed equation, FIRST. Oh almost forgot to add to my post above, those total 'torque to the ground' figures! After calculating the final axle ratio torque output, I should've mentioned that we need to re figure for the height of the tire. .... Lets say our 800 ft lb motor in 5th is going through a 3.54 axle. Should then be 2832 raw torque coming out the end of the axle... to a distance of 1 foot from centerline. I forgot to factor in the height of the average tire of say 31 inches! (or 15.5 inches radius) That will be a 23% reduction in torque right off the bat from tire height. My bad! AH, You're correct on the 5th gear part.. Perhaps if they named the ' 5th gear countershaft' (the gear that ties the input gear to the CS) a different name (such as mainshaft to countershaft gear) ... I would've caught it! I see now that 5th is indeed straight though! which brings me to the last part, the difference we feel @ 1600 vs. 2500 in the same gear. (thanks for clarifying which gear you were in) If cummins' numbers are correct, theoretically, the 1600 should hold the rpm steady far easier than the 2500.. Are you misinterpreting the fact it's more difficult to ACCELERATE going up a hill with 1600 as the starting point?? look at it as TOTAL engine demand. 1st, you need to maintain speed. It takes X amount to maintain speed. it's pretty easy to see a truck in 5th gear @ 1600 rpm will be going a lot slower than the same truck already turning 2500. So you have momentum already on your side... and the resulting ability to MAINTAIN isn't as taxing to the torque output of this engine. When you approach the same hill @ 1600, you have far less momentum, and now we have 2 needs to be met. The original torque to MAINTAIN, plus now we need additional torque to replace the lost momentum (accelerate) because the momentum was never there to help out. Maintaining rpms, and accelerating, are 2 very different load demands on an engine with finite amount of torque. I don't have the long grades you western guys have, but I do have the loads! Can you explain to me how I hit the bottom of the hill at 2500, in 5th gear, and within 1/2 mile up the grade my rpm is now 17-1900 and HOLDING?? why does it hold there?? It's called getting back into the torque sweet spot. or 'torque rise'. when the load is greater than what 5th gear can hold, I shift down again.. If horsepower was such the savior, I wouldn't have lost the rpm @ 2500 in the first place. Torque is the ONLY thing coming out the end of the crankshaft.
February 27, 201510 yr Author This Dyno was loaded and they did set the off set. I did do 2 other pulls with just the comp and the best group was what I posted with the smarty and comp My comp isn't the hot unlocked version. The tech told me I probably wouldn't get much more HP out of the HE351 and 100hp sticks. He was saying that I was basically out of air flow. I talked to Alex at Industrial Injection and I think I'm going to get a Phatshaft 62/80 for now then add an S480 to it later. s480!? How much power are you trying to make? You do know a 75 will flow more air that a vp can supply right?
February 27, 201510 yr which brings me to the last part, the difference we feel @ 1600 vs. 2500 in the same gear. (thanks for clarifying which gear you were in) If cummins' numbers are correct, theoretically, the 1600 should hold the rpm steady far easier than the 2500.. Are you misinterpreting the fact it's more difficult to ACCELERATE going up a hill with 1600 as the starting point?? look at it as TOTAL engine demand. 1st, you need to maintain speed. It takes X amount to maintain speed. it's pretty easy to see a truck in 5th gear @ 1600 rpm will be going a lot slower than the same truck already turning 2500. So you have momentum already on your side... and the resulting ability to MAINTAIN isn't as taxing to the torque output of this engine. When you approach the same hill @ 1600, you have far less momentum, and now we have 2 needs to be met. The original torque to MAINTAIN, plus now we need additional torque to replace the lost momentum (accelerate) because the momentum was never there to help out. Maintaining rpms, and accelerating, are 2 very different load demands on an engine with finite amount of torque. I don't have the long grades you western guys have, but I do have the loads! Can you explain to me how I hit the bottom of the hill at 2500, in 5th gear, and within 1/2 mile up the grade my rpm is now 17-1900 and HOLDING?? why does it hold there?? It's called getting back into the torque sweet spot. or 'torque rise'. when the load is greater than what 5th gear can hold, I shift down again.. If horsepower was such the savior, I wouldn't have lost the rpm @ 2500 in the first place. Torque is the ONLY thing coming out the end of the crankshaft. I am talking about maintaining speed, not accelerating. The reason you settle to 17-1900 rpms is as much about power production, as it is about power requirements. The speed associated with 2500 rpms takes too much power to maintain and you slow down. When you slow down to a 17-1900 rpm your power output is now equal to your power requirement. Torque rise is real, and I am not pushing that off but your beyond that. It also means you have to lug the engine to get there, which is not reccpmmended. My example still stands. A truck with a flat torque curve struggles to maintain speed at peak torque of 1600 rpms, but can pull the same grade in the same gear at 2500 rpms without being WOT. There is more parasitic engine drag, and a higher power requirement from the increased speed.. Yet it's easier to maintain speed. The acceleration difference is from the horsower. Yes the inertia helps, but it still takes an increase in power to accelerate. Good times.
I should be hopping on the dyno this weekend (As long as my brother doesn't blow up his 05 first)
Couple of questions: Anyone have any thoughts on which level for a smarty only run? Any thoughts on which level for a smarty + TST run?
And for the fun part! Guessing
Give your guess for: Smarty only and smarty + TST My sig is up to date!