ISX

Yes I can see other wires causing shorts but I would think a novice could determine where there was and wasn't voltage. Most of the things were spliced together at ground or fuses. But having rewired my truck I have seen the "finnnnne" job dodge did splicing wires together :doh:But I see your point and will see what I can think of. I just think the schematics are still a far cry from perfection. As far as perfect things go, that has been taken to its limits... We have cars MADE to break. Everything is made to break these days because old stuff was made to last a long time and that means there are things 100 years old that still run fine. Now you can't even rebuild an engine, they are throwaways. And I have a huge problem with that. The percentage spent on innovation compared to fixing things is like 1% to 99% whereas in the old days it was probably 20%/80%. People were making tvs, and computers and all kinds of crap. In these books I have, the common rail principal was made in the 80's...... They just didn't have the technology to make these pieze injectors. We have been working off old principals for decades. Computer processors have transistors in them measuring 22nm now, they said they are capable of making them 5nm. An atom is 0.1-0.5nm in diameter....... computers have the technology so why are we still messing around with incredibly lax engine tolerances. The injectors are precise, yet we can't even filter the dirt out of the fuel? Unbelievable. That's how I see things. No attention to detail except in certain areas, complete ignorance of detail in others. The crappy things destroy the precise things.

I saw this today, really gets the point across.

Yes I realize they get long and that is why I am still testing ideas. I don't care about other components, only components that make or break the component I select. If I pick FSS, I only want to see the stuff I have listed. There are other things that hook up to those wires, but the FSS does not depend on them, so I do not list them. I went through every single page the other day so I could list each component and I would say most things would have a list like what we have here, it wouldn't be much longer than that. So if there was a way to perfect it with just that, then I think it would be ideal, fast and efficient to find problems. Right now when someone asks uhh well I know there is a backup fuse thread on here. Well if it wasn't the fuse causing the light to be out, and not the bulb, then I shudder to think of having to go through all the pages on the schematic. The idea of finding it is simple but the time spent finding it and tracing everything is unnecessary. So if you only have to follow the trees in the forest with the red marks on them, rather than getting lost in the whole damn forest, you can have the problem fixed in no time. And yes I realize I make everything difficult and detailed but I see a difference. On every forum there are the same questions, and theres tons of forums out there. Everyone wants to know why their nose itches and everyone says "theres an ant in it". Alright simple enough. Flick it off. Oh wait, the ant comes back... Or, why did the ant get there in the first place.. I don't care about problems that are apparent, I care about how to eliminate them altogether. If I can see the ants a mile away and see that they are coming towards me, I can walk over there and fumigate the anthill. Problem solved. As far as everything I do trying to be unnecessarily dead nuts...why can't it be perfect? I'm not trying to push it on anyone as I know it's unnecessary, but I want that damn thing to get 40MPG and every little thing that we let "get by" adds up. I just think everything COULD be prevented if we looked at the fine details, the anthill in the distance, rather than just fixing the obvious problems all the time. I go through my truck all the time for no reason. The only problem I have ever had was a water pump go out and a tire blow out on me. The tire thing coulda been prevented and I'm not sure about the water pump since it just went out instantly all of a sudden. But tons of other issues that happen to people are completely preventable if they would only learn about the causes of things. There is a thread on CF about what to bring with you on a 1900 mile trip, and they listed everything but a spare truck. I mean really, to me that was obvious that they have no clue when anything is going to go out. I know the condition of everything on my truck, I know what is questionable and if its to the point that I even have a lot of doubts then I would carry a replacement. My jeeps belt is questionable to the point I have doubts, I have a spare one and the tools to change it in the back seat. Oh and the problem sets in manuals just tell you to check this and that which means your back at the wiring diagrams and next thing you know you've got 30 minutes wrapped up in finding the problem, confirming the problem, finding where the problem is, finding it in the schematic... I know most people think spending time is part of the fixing process but I can't stand it. If it can be done faster, than I will figure out how. I spend a ton of time on this crap but if that means making something that helps the next person save an hour, then it's worth it to me. Theres a million threads on CF reiterating the same crap the same way that does nothing but tell you to chase your tail in circles. Then I can post a video and the problem is solved. So there is an easier way, I provided it, saved them an hour, it was worth it. Why constantly do crap in ways that suck when there are better things out there if people just took the time. An hour burned here could be a week saved in a years time.

That's uh, exactly what I said.. And "but if the customer of the air/fuel doesn't need what the supply line is capable of then the flow is the same." was my point. The pump isn't even using what a 7mm line can flow, it only had a 0.9psi drop for 44GPH at 20psi. Yet people with big line kits are still seeing 2-3psi drop. I believe this to fully be the overflows fault because it is a stupid spring, it needs to be smarter and have a controller in order to compensate to an exact amount.

Are you sure? Because I'm going to toss this out there. At a factory we have a 4" main line for air pressure, then it feeds off through 1" lines and then it connects to the flexible air hose we all know and use, which one size would be 3/8". Another size is 3/4". I know a guy who has a 3/4" (I think) impact for putting on semi truck lugnuts. So we have 2 different air hoses. But the air in the hoses and the air in the 1" and 4" lines, all measure 120psi. Alright so lets say I have a 3/8" impact. On the 3/8" air line it runs fine. 3/8" Impacts are satisfied with 3/8" lines and do their job perfect. Why? Because the 3/8" air line is sufficient for it. Alright, now lets say I put a 3/4" adapter on it and hook it up to the 3/4" air line. What's the difference? Nothing. The impact is getting the max flow it can handle in either case. Meaning, "30psi with teeny lines is the same as 30psi with big lines" IF the thing it is supplying is the determining factor of flow. Meaning, the injection pump cannot flow more than the small lines can handle, so in either case of small or big lines, pressure is maintained and the volume of fuel delivered is still the same. In the case of the 3/4" impact, now I see where your law applies. It is practically like taking the end off the 3/8" line and letting it blow off. Velocity increases pressure drops. But I don't see it being the case with our trucks because the injection pump even with the overflow valve flow, is still the same as the 3/8" impact example because the lines flow more than the injection pump and the lift pump flows more as well, so my overflow thing is still my idea of the issue.

I don't think that's it but you can go into more detail on it to prove me wrong. I think it's a problem with overflow valves. They don't have the precision they need in order to control flow. My truck stays above 30psi at WOT with tiny lines with the mechanical lift pump which TorkTek swears is completely worthless. My belief is that these fuel pumps can provide much more flow than the injection pump and the issue arises with the overflow valve being "tuned" to give you a max pressure. When I am on a downhill and leave it in gear and let off so that the engine can overspeed, giving the lift pump full RPM and the overflow full flow, my truck will see 40psi. Same scenario but WOT, I see more like 32psi. The overflow opens at 20psi though..if that. So at WOT the injection pump is fighting the overflow for fuel, and the pressure is still 32psi, meaning the lift pump is still providing plenty of fuel. If it got sucked down to 5psi then it would be obvious the lift pump was worn out or the overflow spring was very weak. Therefore, I believe a variable overflow valve is the solution. One with electronic controls and all that fanciness to open a needle valve or something to allow a steady pressure with little variation. I think a baffle or whatever its called also needs to be installed to get rid of the pulsations. The lines have plenty of flow for 400HP at 20psi so that gives you an idea of how much HP I can get running over 30psi. Another interesting thing. 12 valves seem to have 2 designs for their overflow valve. One has a hole that is maybe 3/16", the other is 0.08", which is what I have. I have read a lot about 12V's having poor fuel pressure and I am wondering if they all have the bigger diameter as mine sure has no fuel pressure issue whatsoever. So even if my spring was weak, the orifice is so small that is regulates pressure on it's own.

Even still, 44GPH is only 0.98 PSI drop. I know mike has a big line kit and see's more like 2-3psi drop, soooo...???

That valve cover looks to be a 1 piece 12V cover. It is billet and $600. The combined setup will probably be $1000. http://keatingmachine.com/products/entry/12-valve-billet-valve-cover/engine-parts

Don't let jlwelding see this

That did make me think of it differently. In a good way! I just am trying to get it to flow. You can kinda see how yours is still a little bit of lines going everywhere. Basically in my first drawing with the black, the middle wire that stairsteps down is just incredible, but that hardly ever works like that. But what you did is a big leap cause I didn't think of combining things like you did. I also like other things you did. I just gotta stare at it some more Thanks for doing all that! Wasn't expecting anyone to go that far. Much appreciated.

Yeah I'm with W&F on this one. If you use the 103 MM3 thing for a 235@2700RPM 24V, that's 13.2 GPH or 0.22 GPM. According to this http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/showpost.php?p=965679&postcount=19 a 150GPH pump is making 126 at 20psi which is what everyone seems to be running pressurewise. Alright so welllll within it's capabilities. Alright but that's a stock truck.. Using the 24V efficiency and putting in 400HP at 3000RPM I end up with a grand total of 22GPH. In fact, if I reverse it all and use 126GPH at that efficiency and 3000RPM, that comes out to 2239HP. So the pump isn't the problem. So we are left with the pressure drop within the lines. Well here is calculated for 2 meters of 7mm line (I think thats the stock internal diameter). I used 22GPH being 400HP... Found out the the other specs through google. Thats 0.19psi drop. In other words, the fittings are killing everything, not the lines.

And get some damn pictures of your exhaust brake and inside the exhaust manifold showing your pyro probe! Need to see what yours look like compared to mine.

That chart has years and trucks all over the place. I redid the entire thing so its a lot easier now (in order). Dyno.pdf

This might help you out. Mike went to a dyno thing and took note of everyone's mods. http://articles.mopar1973man.com/images/members-rides/mopar1973man/2002-dodge/dyno/dyno%20day.jpg

The only thing I can think of is the converter is having issues and since you turned it up it is slipping just as you said. If the RPM doesn't change, it only takes 1/2" of throttle to be at WOT, so even though you aren't at WOT pedalwise, enginewise it is. So since you moved the plate, you are making more power and the tranny isn't liking it. Hopefully an auto tranny guy will chime in and give you some more details.

That picture is actually the proof.... Post a picture of everything that makes the shutoff solenoid work and now you have to scan all over the million pages of schematics. It was the biggest PITA ever to wire my truck when each component is repeated over several pages. One wire is here, one wire is there. I just want to make everything easier to figure out. If the FSS doesn't work then it could be any number of relays, fuses, or even the wire on the positive battery terminal (had it corrode off on me). If you trace it out on the schematic it takes forever. I hate beating my head against the wall trying to find every page that the FSS or any of its components is listed on. Yesterday I went through every single page of the schematics and listed every single thing that was a thing. Every fuse, every switch, every light, every sensor, every relay, every motor.......EVERYTHING. I added the things as I saw them as I scrolled down the schematics, writing the page number next to the component. There are 198 components.... Most are listed on several pages. A lot of things do not even account for some wires. The relay for the starter solenoid is like that, you have to look at 2 or 3 pages to even see all the wires that go to it. So if you found it on one page and assumed there were only 2 wires, you would be missing out on the other 2 and miss a potential problem. The spreadsheet I made with all those items is a HUGE help. I was in a chat room the other day telling someone about it and he had never seen the schematic. I showed it to them and then I showed them the spreadsheet and they quickly figured out why I made a spreadsheet. To trace something out in all its entirety takes forever. I want to be able to click on the component and see everything tied into it, instantly. I hate wasting time on stuff that could be made easier. If I was a complete nerd I would make a 3d high def picture of the truck with all the wires in it like manufacturers show with engines on youtube with their animations. You could click on what you wanted and it would show just all the wires that ran it. But I am not that smart.

I don't know anything about the auto brands and stuff but can you describe this chatter feeling more? When does it do it, is it load dependent, RPM dependent, anything at all out of the ordinary other than the chatter? Everything you did makes 0 difference if you are just cruising along. The AFC is only in the mix under 5psi-ish and the fuel plate is only a sort of "throttle stop". When you are cruising along under low engine loads, they are not used.

Here's another design that has no flaws other than just not flowing as well. I like how the other one is a "one right after the other" flow chart thing. So, I hate this one also.

I cannot figure out a format to make this work how I want. It's a tree of wires meaning you start with the shutoff solenoid with 3 wires coming out of it. I have the wire colors listed in the orange and then I have where the wire goes. If the wire goes to its final destination, it is colored red (as is the case for the ground). If not, it is green meaning you can keep going. Each orange being the wire to the next destination from the last green cell followed by the new destination under the orange. Simple, until you end up with something that does not leave with just one. The shutoff solenoid relay being the 3rd wire is listed with 3 orange wires coming out of it. Because there was the brown wire coming from the shutoff itself, this means there is a total of 4 wires coming out of the relay. So I list the other 3 since they are all possible culprits. Each one terminates except the last one, so not much of a problem, yet. If we use the middle wire for example, it would be traced like this. LT GRN/BLK wire comes out of FSS and goes to fuse block, it then goes from the fuse block along a DK BLU wire to the ignition switch, it then from the ignition switch along a red wire to fuse 3, it then goes from fuse 3 along a red wire to the battery. At that point there are no more places to go, so it terminates. Then the starter motor relay has another 3 wires and now it starts to get ugly. If the one didn't terminate at the battery, I would have 2 wires not terminating and it would create a list that you wouldn't know which came from where. I made a gap between the 2 to make it easier for the time being. Because of this variable multiplying, something as simple as a family tree design doesn't seem to work with excel's "cell" format. Do you guys have any idea, even if you don't think it could be done in excel, that could make it work perfectly?

If it were me I would LineX the rockers since thats where all the abuse is. Other than that, take it to a quality shop to have it painted where they prep it properly. Shop around, don't take the shop owners word for it. I notice a lot of the best jobs are done by people who don't know how to talk to people, they are so focused on doing a good job instead. So you need someone with a reputation they can back up. Line X is heavy and I don't think it power washes well. I have it in my truck bed and it is faded and the mud stains seem to be eternal. I don't think the initial good look that it may have when it leaves the paint shop would last long. Oh and rumor has it that the OEM paint is crap. That tells me that you shouldn't get depressed over paint that was cheap and made to crack. My truck is turning green by the headlight (silver truck) and I am told 1997 paint had some compound in it that does that. But you said you repainted it so maybe they didnt prep it worth a crap. You did say it was cheap cheap cheap so I think you got what you paid for. If you are set though, research the dirt thing to see about remedies or coatings that don't do that.

Same here mine hardly did anything. The bhaf does a fair amount and exhaust plays a key part.

Try chrome, its as automatic as it gets and you don't even have to update anything. You just load it and its done. If you don't like it, I would go with firefox. I hate firefox because of the popups wanting you to accept everything. If I have to accept everything then that defies the point of having a secure browser if I have to just scan everything myself. Opera isn't compatible with some things so thats why I don't really recommend it to anyone. I can't live without it but I do have chrome open for other websites. So that's my recommendation, chrome. https://www.google.com/intl/en/chrome/browser/

I just went to infowars and the only browser in windows 7 that had an issue was IE. It did exactly what you described, doing absolutely nothing until I bottomed out the mouse on the button. If you are using IE you might consider something else, IE is a piece of crap and venerable to anything.

Pffffffft even says Missouri is pulling that crap. Lot of good my letter did Oh and I found this looks familiar

Adds weight to the truck, good for 5HP if you trash it.