Sticking clutch pedal

[leathermaneod]

Ugh I sure hope that's not this issue. I appreciate the input though. I sure hope it's the pedal bushings! Mine does do it with the engine off though so who knows.

[IBMobile]

I don't think you need any lube on the rod where It meets the master.  I've never put lube on any I've ever done.  I never put any on the push rod in a brake booster when changing a master cylinder.    

I was thinking along the same lines as KATOOM. Over the years I've used a thin coating of white lithium grease with no problems.

[leathermaneod]

I meant the lube more for the inside walls of the master than the rod, but maybe you still don't need any. And what katoom said does make sense. I'm just really hoping that's not it lol. We used synthetic hi temp grease and only a very small amount

[KATOOM]

On a positive note for you, I've experienced a sticky clutch pedal two times.  The story I just told was the second time.

The first time was with the stock clutch and the OEM hydraulics.  The clutch pedal felt like rubber shoe sole sliding across a smooth surface.  That time it was the clutch master cylinder and I didnt want to spend money on replacement hydros.  So what I did was kind of difficult to explain but here goes.....

I had someone assist me by sitting in the drivers seat while I was laying on the floorboard in front of them.  They pressed the clutch pedal about half way and I pulled back the clutch safety switch with my hand.  Then I took a can of PB blaster and using the spray straw, I poked the straw in along next to the cylinder shaft and sprayed a douse of PB blaster directly into the master cylinder piston.  I love PB blaster as the stuff really does wonders for rubber components. (plug over)

Then waiting about 30 seconds I had my helper press the pedal all the way to the floor and then let them release the clutch.  Yes, some PB oozed out so I had a rag handy to mop up the mess.  But now for the good news, my clutch pedal regained its smoothness and lasted that way for a couple more years until I replaced the clutch and replaced the hydraulics for a new SB set.

I'm not telling you what to try but merely sharing what worked for me.....

[dripley]

I was seeing the same thing Katoom did with regards to the throw out bearing when I had to replace mine.with the exception that mine seemed to not have enough grease and what was there was pretty gummed up. Might have been the cause of the failure of the bearing. Hanging up and leaving pressure on it kind of like riding around with your foot on the clutch.

[leathermaneod]

Well thanks again for all the helpful tips guys! Now I have to wait for some better weather but hopefully by this evening I will be able to clean out the grease with brake cleaner the same way you added PB blaster. Once I get that cleaned out as much as I can I'll try adding some PB. I'm pretty sure that's not going to work since the grease didn't but at least it will hopefully save my new master. Then I'll be replacing the bushings and greasing the pedal pivot. And I'll post back with some pics and details and let you all know if it solves the issue or not of course.

[leathermaneod]

Hey guys, 

I have an update! Just got finished cleaning up my grease and tearing apart the pedals. I couldn't get the grease cleaned up as well as I had hoped, but I did what I could. It definitely looked like the grease did make it past the piston :-/. I pressed the pedal and watched it move and I could see the pink grease inside, not sure how that works but it definitely looks like its in there. I sprayed in brake cleaner and wiped off what I could, but I couldn't get in there to wipe it all out so I won't be surprised if it starts leaking. Ill be getting the Valair hydros if that happens, I may end up going that route anyway if all this doesnt fix the sticking issue. After cleaning what I could I sprayed in PB blaster and worked the pedal a little. Then I went on to tearing things apart. I didn't find any obvious culprit, but I did find so possible contributors and some things that I don't like that a PO must have done, so over all its good I'm doing this and its not hard at all. Although, this is definitely one of the instances when the FSM is less than helpful and even somewhat misleading. The possible contributors that I found are just that some of the bushings are slightly worn, none are shot, but who knows, they are probably not helping. Other than that, things are just a little sticky and gummed. Nothing extreme by any means, I don't really think its the cause. I'm leaning toward the master cylinder itself, but we'll see. Maybe the PB blaster will work some magic. Or maybe fresh grease and bushings will do the trick. I'm going to clean everything up with brake cleaner and use scotch brite if I have to to get everything as smooth as possible again.

The first thing I found that I didn't like is that the spring clip that holds the brake pushrod to the pedal was worn out and a washer was added to the pin to try and keep it on there. Who knows when that would have slipped off. The other thing is pictured here. Would done of you guys mind checking your brake pedal to see if you have this? I'm talking about the silver washer thing on the right side between the pedal and the plastic bushing. Its springy like the washer thats on the battery temp sensor. I'm pretty sure you won't have it, and I don't understand why they put it here....

The first thing to do is remove the knee bolster.

That gives a little better access and visibility to the pedal pivot pin. Next, remove the spring clips that hold the clutch and brake pushrods to the pedals and take the rods off the pedal pins. They look like this.

Here you can see how the one on my brake pedal was flattened.

Be careful with the spring clips. All you need to remove them is a long flat head screwdriver. It pretty hard to explain how to release them, but Mopar1973man has a great video about clutch hydros install in which he describes it very well. If you do damage them you can get new ones from a dealer. I had to order on because it was flat and no longer springy. Removing the clips and rods allows the pedals to swing backward and forward out of your way. Next, unplug the brake light switch. You can see it unplugged here.

It has a safety clip, so just pull that out first. This is so that your brake lights don't stay on constantly while the pedals are out. You do not need to remove the switch completely like the FSM says. This is good in my opinion, because the switch says not to re install it. Not sure how critical that is, but there is no need to pull it completely out. If you are able to put everything back together right away you wouldn't even need to unplug the switch. Next, you'll want to remove the E clip from the passenger side of the pedal pivot rod/pin. It looks like this.

Then you can slide the pin about an inch toward the driver side and remove the E clip from that side. You have to do that because there is only enough room to push that pin all the way out to the passenger side. I used a curved hook to pull the E clip off mine. The driver side clip had been replaced with a snap ring. I think the PO did that because I read that the passenger side E clip has been know to pop off during operation. I may use a snap ring again when I put it back together. Now you can slide the pedal pivot pin all the way out to the passenger side and your pedals will come down. Now you just have to clean everything up and put it back together. 

Some extra pics for you all.

This is the pedal pivot pin. I wrote on each end with a sharpie so that I could put it back in the same way. 

This is the passenger side where the E clip and the end of the pedal pivot pin will be.

The clutch side of the end of the pedal pivot pin. The gouge on the right is from the top of the clutch pedal rubbing into the padding/insulation under there. I believe the marks on the left are from the pedal pivot pin sliding part way out and rubbing whenever the passenger side E clip fell off and a PO added the snap ring.

The hook I used to remove the E clips.

The worst looking of the bushings. Slightly deformed.

Before you start, you may want to order all six new bushings. The are about $4 a piece and you will need six. The FSM is a little confusing and kinda makes it look like you only need 4, but you need 6. The part number is 0429 4639, and they are all the same. You may also want to order new spring clips and E clips just in case. I don't know the part number for those yet, but I will try to remember to update this when I get them. 

I will also post any and all other tips/info I find when I get mine put back together. 

Mike you asked for an article on this, I am assuming this is going to be good enough. Please let me know if there is any other info you would like added or changes you would like made. 

Edited February 26, 2016 by leathermaneod

[KATOOM]

Nice write up.....

And if I understood what you were describing with the grease making it past the piston, it would sound like the master cylinder is shot.  If thats the case then PB isnt going to do any help for the plunger seal as its probably not in good shape.  If you determine that the master is done then you can either pick up another at NAPA and bench bleed the whole system, or order a whole aftermarket kit.

But that said, just note that there are differences between Valair's and SB's.  They're very similar but not exact and I even believe that Valair's hydraulics come in two pieces and must be connected at some point of the install.  Not sure if that affects or requires further bleeding either but just passing on information.

[leathermaneod]

Thanks for the reply! Not disagreeing with you at all, but if the seal was shot, wouldn't fluid already be leaking out? I actually already called Napa about getting another set from them, but the issue with that is, they have to send it back and their warehouse tests it. If they determine it is good, then I'm stuck paying for it. Oh and by the way, it takes about 2 months for them to get around to testing it. So if I do get another set, it will be either Valiar or SB and I will try and get Napa to give my money back at least. You are correct about the differences between Valair and SB. I don't think Valair's is supposed to need to be bled, but it definitely does come in two pieces. Thank you for telling me about that though. Did you bleed your SB set before installing it? Also, did it come with a safety switch? or did you have to reuse your old one? Also, with your SB set, were you able to adjust it so that your clutch engages a little closer to the floor?

[Mopar1973Man]

Still at the end of the day I would still use standard ol' NAPA store hydro's and not chase the name brand Valair / Southbend. One thing I'm not impressed with some use stainless lines which attract heat to the fluid. Where the plastic line doesn't. Then people get wrapped up with the adjustment on the name brands when it not required for standard single disc clutch. More or less do it with a KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid). 

As for bleeding how do you think the seal systems are bled? Same way I bleed mine. 

@leathermaneod Would you mind creating an article in the article database of the pivot pin removal?

 

Edited February 26, 2016 by Mopar1973Man

[leathermaneod]

2 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Still at the end of the day I would still use standard ol' NAPA store hydro's and not chase the name brand Valair / Southbend. One thing I'm not impressed with some use stainless lines which attract heat to the fluid. Where the plastic line doesn't. Then people get wrapped up with the adjustment on the name brands when it not required for standard single disc clutch. More or less do it with a KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid). 

As for bleeding how do you think the seal systems are bled? Same way I bleed mine. 

@leathermaneod Would you mind creating an article in the article database of the pivot pin removal?

Yes I can do that. I just have to figure out how lol. What do you think about the grease getting past the piston mike? Does it sound shot to you? Do you think the grease ruined it? Basically I just don't want to get a new set from Napa and then get charged for two because they say nothing is wrong with the original...

 

[dripley]

While I am sure the SB and the Valair are both good units I have been using a whatever Auto zone gave me for a master cylinder for 150k mile now and the slave is a chinese from Rock Auto and has been on here 100k miles. I am still using the oe reservoir and tubing. The master has seen my oe clutch, Valair replacement and now the SB replacement. Although not long on the SB. Not a lick of trouble yet. I have less than $100 in both of them, I am thinking about $75. Food for thought.

 

[KATOOM]

2 hours ago, leathermaneod said:

Thanks for the reply! Not disagreeing with you at all, but if the seal was shot, wouldn't fluid already be leaking out? I actually already called Napa about getting another set from them, but the issue with that is, they have to send it back and their warehouse tests it. If they determine it is good, then I'm stuck paying for it. Oh and by the way, it takes about 2 months for them to get around to testing it. So if I do get another set, it will be either Valiar or SB and I will try and get Napa to give my money back at least. You are correct about the differences between Valair and SB. I don't think Valair's is supposed to need to be bled, but it definitely does come in two pieces. Thank you for telling me about that though. Did you bleed your SB set before installing it? Also, did it come with a safety switch? or did you have to reuse your old one? Also, with your SB set, were you able to adjust it so that your clutch engages a little closer to the floor?

Well you know where I stand on this topic.....  

My opinion is.....because the OEM hydro's require complete removal and bench bleeding when replaced, and because the OEM hydro's are weaker (strength wise) whereby the aftermarket hydro's are built to increase leverage over the pressure plate for less leg work, and because aftermarket uses a flexible SS line (which is also shielded) instead of the hard pre-bent OEM line which is forced to worm up and around the hot hydro-assist unit, and because the SS line can be positioned in such a manner that it points upward for constant self bleeding.....I think that the aftermarket hydraulics are the best bet.  Sure they cost more but aside from the added strength, the simplicity is still there and the adjust-ability is an added convenience.

I say all this with respect to all aftermarket hydro's too but I've only used SB, although I believe Valair to be the same in the aspect to being constructed for additional strength when being using with stronger pressure plates.  Although I think the two piece design of the Valair uses both hard line and SS line so I cant comment on how functional it would be for self bleeding like the SB full SS line.

In regards to the warranty, I'd have to say that NAPA's kind of warranty would just prove pointless for me.....and potentially costly too if you were forced to chase a problem unknowing if the part was faulty.  Its one thing to bring in a starter or alternator or battery and have it tested on the spot, but if you have to send it off and wait forever to get a result which may or may not be in your favor would simply give me reason to simply replace it and walk away.  But thats just me.....

And no, I didn't need to bleed the SB hydro's but as I mentioned, if there happens to be any air in there, the SS line can be routed in such a way which always allows any potential air to find its way up and out the master.  The hard OEM hose routing up and over the hydro-assist makes this self bleeding impossible which is why they need to be bench bled.  Thats not a deal breaker either but just another step some may or may not care to deal with.

And yes, the SB hydraulics came with everything I needed, including the switch.

Lastly, I'm not "pro OEM" either just because I feel this way about the hydraulics.  There's plenty of things I believe OEM to be best.  And I have zero desire to spend money on things I can get cheaper too but there are some things I feel are best done by aftermarket companies.  So as always, however anyone wants to get it done, its their truck and this is only "my" opinion.

Edited February 27, 2016 by KATOOM

[leathermaneod]

Well as always I appreciate you taking the time to present your point of view. I guess there are positives and negatives to both sides. I guess at this point I have to just wait and see what happens once I get everything back together and drive it some more. If the problem persists I guess it will be time to make a decision on hydros....I'm not sure if you answered if you were able to get your clutch to engage closer to the floor with the adjustable SB unit?

[KATOOM]

Sorry, I did forget to answer that.....  Yes, being able to adjust the pedal position was helpful for me.  Not so much but because of my height and sitting position, I do better with a pedal closer to me.  Again, to each is own.....

[leathermaneod]

Ok thanks. I would just like for mine to start engaging a little closer to the floor and I would like to have a little travel before the pedal disengages. Right now it starts grabbing very far out and starts to disengage almost as soon as I put any pressure on it.

[KATOOM]

The shafts adjust-ability will change the distance the pedal can or has to move in relation to the master cylinders throw.  So yes, it can make your engagement or disengagement higher or lower, but all I'm trying to make clear is the pedal height will change as well.

[leathermaneod]

Gotcha! That makes sense. Thanks for pointing that out.

[leathermaneod]

Hey guys got another question for the group. So I checked up on that spring washer on the right side of the brake pedal I have pictured above and asked you all about. Dodge dealer confirmed that it is supposed to be there, but they are discontinued. Mine looks ok but I'm wondering if it's lost some of its spring because my pedal clips were really worn out. Anyway do you think I'd be safe using some nylon washers as spacers on there instead of that spring washer? I just want to reduce side to side pedal movement as much as possible....

Edited February 27, 2016 by leathermaneod

[KATOOM]

I think you'll be fine.