Sticking clutch pedal

[leathermaneod]

No, I'm certain of what I felt, just not sure if what I'm feeling is a problem or not. It's movement is very smooth, just not perfectly consistent toward the rearmost part...Is there anything else I can try before buying new hydros?

wouldnt fact of the slave cylinder sticking and being hard to push in at first indicate an issue with it?

It's also possible that I was trying to move the fork too far and that's why it was a little harder towards the rear of the truck. I just thought of that because of what you said about the 3/4 inch katoom. I'm pretty sure I moved it more than 3/4....

 

By the way I'm not trying to disagree with you or doubt your knowledge/experience on this. I'm just trying to verify as much as possible what's going on. And I didn't feel anything that I think could possibly be causing what I'm feeling in the pedal. I guess I really want it to be the hydros, for obvious reasons, but in my opinion, I haven't found anything that really tells me it's the throw out bearing. 

[Ilikeoldfords]

Just a couple thoughts if you do end up buying a new hydro system. I bought the Valair hydro system about 3 years ago. It did come as one sealed unit. Not sure if it still does. I did however have to re use my old safety switch. That system didnt last all of maybe 50k miles before the master started leaking. I went right through a stop sign because I couldnt disengage the clutch. I would suggest not buying the valair system.

As for your problem, did you replace the clutch and hydros at the same time? I am just wondering if the problem started just with the new clutch or not. If you can figure out when you started noticing the problem and what change to the truck you made at that time, it might help narrow it down.

I. E. You replaced the clutch and now the pedal feels sticky. Probably a problem with the clutch and not the hydros.

[KATOOM]

1 hour ago, leathermaneod said:

No, I'm certain of what I felt, just not sure if what I'm feeling is a problem or not. It's movement is very smooth, just not perfectly consistent toward the rearmost part...Is there anything else I can try before buying new hydros?

wouldnt fact of the slave cylinder sticking and being hard to push in at first indicate an issue with it?

It's also possible that I was trying to move the fork too far and that's why it was a little harder towards the rear of the truck. I just thought of that because of what you said about the 3/4 inch katoom. I'm pretty sure I moved it more than 3/4....

 

By the way I'm not trying to disagree with you or doubt your knowledge/experience on this. I'm just trying to verify as much as possible what's going on. And I didn't feel anything that I think could possibly be causing what I'm feeling in the pedal. I guess I really want it to be the hydros, for obvious reasons, but in my opinion, I haven't found anything that really tells me it's the throw out bearing. 

Cant think of anything besides everything I've already suggested.  And not to beat the horse either but I cant stress enough how the fork should move.  There is no "partial" resistance or I think it sticking but maybe not and I'm not sure if I pulled it far enough.....ect.....  It simply moves forwards and backwards about 3/4 of an inch and will come to obvious contact stops.  Move it forward and the throwout bearing face will contact the clutch forks.  Move it backwards and the fork will contact the bell housing.  Not much else going on in there.  Which is why I said "check again.  It literally will take you may 5 minutes if you take your time.  Heck, take a video for future reference if it helps.

I know you're not disagreeing with me either but merely trying to attack the possible cause from all angles.  So you're good.....

Other than that, I guess worst case scenario is you replace the hydraulics and the problem remains.  Then you'll have to delve deeper.....

Edited February 29, 2016 by KATOOM

[leathermaneod]

1 hour ago, KATOOM said:

Cant think of anything besides everything I've already suggested.  And not to beat the horse either but I cant stress enough how the fork should move.  There is no "partial" resistance or I think it sticking but maybe not and I'm not sure if I pulled it far enough.....ect.....  It simply moves forwards and backwards about 3/4 of an inch and will come to obvious contact stops.  Move it forward and the throwout bearing face will contact the clutch forks.  Move it backwards and the fork will contact the bell housing.  Not much else going on in there.  Which is why I said "check again.  It literally will take you may 5 minutes if you take your time.  Heck, take a video for future reference if it helps.

I know you're not disagreeing with me either but merely trying to attack the possible cause from all angles.  So you're good.....

Other than that, I guess worst case scenario is you replace the hydraulics and the problem remains.  Then you'll have to delve deeper.....

Well maybe that is the problem then, because it certainly wasn't moving how you describe. I just wonder if it really could be the cause though because the part with more resistance was the part the throw out bearing would never touches on its own due to the constant spring pressure from the slave cylinder....and im not saying it's right, I just can't imagine how it could cause the problem. 

Edited February 29, 2016 by leathermaneod

[KATOOM]

OK, then look at it like this.....  Is the money for hydraulics worth a "test" to determine whether or not you have to pull the transmission again?  If so then it seems to me that you have a simple decision to make.

[leathermaneod]

Well yes you are right about that one. It certainly would be worth the money. I guess my biggest worry is that I don't actually have a problem and that its just somehow part of the break in or something....I think I'm going to give valair a call today and ask them. I'm also going to call the trans place that diagnosed the truck before I replaced the clutch and ask them their opinion and if they can test the hydros, and if they are bad somehow, put that in writing for me incase Napa tries to tell me they are fine and not give my money back.

[leathermaneod]

Here's another idea. Can I step on the clutch with the slave cylinder out of the bell housing? Or will that ruin it?

[Mopar1973Man]

36 minutes ago, leathermaneod said:

Here's another idea. Can I step on the clutch with the slave cylinder out of the bell housing? Or will that ruin it?

Most likely blow the piston out of the slave cylinder. I highly suggest against this.

[leathermaneod]

Ok that's kinda what I thought. Thanks! Sounds like I'm going to have the local trans shop feel it and see what they think. $50 for an experienced opinion isn't too bad in my book. That way I can feel confident in what I'm doing before I drop $200 or more on new hydros again.

[Mopar1973Man]

$200 is steep. 

Master - http://www.napaonline.com/napa/en/p/NCF72354_0316483226

Slave - http://www.napaonline.com/napa/en/p/NCF73322_0316483225

Complete unit - http://www.napaonline.com/napa/en/p/NCF74013_0316483228

$129.48 is quite a savings... The only difference you have to bleed the system yourself. You still have to install as a mass unit with either the $200 unit or pull it, rebuild, bleed, and install for less. 

 

[KATOOM]

A sticky or shuddering clutch pedal is not part of a new clutch break in.

[dripley]

I would definitely call Valair or DAP And discuss it. i cant help but think that is part of the reason I had premature failure of the throw out bearing on mine. I had an instance of clutch slipping one day when the clutch was fairly new, 20k miles or so, that a binding throw out bearing might have caused. I went away as fast as it showed up and I just put it out of my mind.

[leathermaneod]

Hey guys, got a little update and a question for all. My truck has been at the trans shop the last two days waiting on them to look at it. I spook with the manager today and he told me two of his guys drove my truck and were not able to replicate the sticky pedal and he asked when I could come in to drive it with them and try to replicate it. I told him I can on Friday, so he said he would try himself in the meantime. He also mentioned that he is concerned with how high the pedal is when it engages. I had pretty much gotten used to this and excepted that it is just the way it is, but now I'm wondering, where do your pedals start to grab? Especially those of you with stock hydros. 

I am really starting to wonder if I could have just got a bad set from Napa, particularly the slave. Its so strange how this is so very dependent on the heat soak. By that I mean I don't notice it until the truck is good and hot and I am sitting still or moving slowly at least....Its almost as if the heat causes something in it to swell, plus the fact of how the slave was kind of stuck at first when I tried to move it by hand...

Edited March 3, 2016 by leathermaneod

[dripley]

Here is my 2 cents worth. My hydros are Auto zone master and rock auto slave replaced over the years. The master has seen the oe, the Valair, and the SB. The slave has seen the Valair and the SB. The resevoir and hose have seen them all. The oe clutch worked fine for its entire life; The Valair was just grabby the whole time it was in the truck. I will have to take part of the blame for its early demise but not the grabbyness. The SB is a touch grabby but does not compare to the Valair. The SB engaged low to the floor after install but is starting to settle out a little higher and closer to where the oe was. The valair always engaged higher and near its end was very high. After having the SB I am much happier with it than the Valair. Just my opinion and experience. I have seen many folks have the opposite of mine. Not sure the hydros dictate where the clutch engages though they do contribute.

[leathermaneod]

Thanks for your input Dripley. I have a new update for everyone. I talked to the guys at the trans place today. They weren't able to duplicate the feeling of the pedal that I described so they asked me to come in and drive it for them, which I did. After getting it nice and warm I brought it back and showed them in their parking lot. After that the tech could feel it in the pedal while pressing it by hand. He describes it as a stepping feeling. Anyway he is convinced that it is caused either by a groove or step worn into the input shaft retainer where the bearing slides, or something causing the bearing to cant on the shaft. He thinks it could also be caused by the fact that we did not grease the face of the fork where the bearing sits. He insisted that if he had done the clutch and the customer brought it back and showed him this, his first step would be to pull the trans and check everything. He does not think the hydros would do this. He said if they were free he'd try them first, but since there's no guarantee that Napa isn't going to charge me for a second set he wouldn't waste the money. He didn't seem to think much of what I told him about the slave sticking at first when I tried to compress it by hand. Of course I can't guarantee that wasn't caused by having the cap on the reservoir. What do you guys think? What should my next step be? Replace the hydros and risk it? Or pull the trans?

 

Oh by the way, I also asked him if there would be any negativity consequences to leaving this alone and trying to deal with it. He said that it could wear out the clutch faster if the throw out bearing were to really get hung up on the retainer.

Edited March 3, 2016 by leathermaneod

[KATOOM]

I dont know what else I can tell you.....  I was serious before and I'm just as serious now.  You have TWO options.  Replace the hydro's (which whatever brand or choice you desire since they all work) and see if that was the problem.....or pull the tranny back just enough to peer in the bell housing and see if you can determine whether or not the throwout is moving without resistance.

Did you not see this thread I created not very long ago?  I may help you understand what I mean. http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/98-5-02-powertrain/1919017-just-installed-skf-throwout-bearing-wow.html

Edited March 3, 2016 by KATOOM

[leathermaneod]

I know what you mean and I did read that thread. I just can't believe that we could have missed something that would cause that issue so soon. I mean even yours was after a year and 5000 miles you said. This is like two weeks and 600 miles...

Do you think the lack of grease on the face of the fork could be causing it? That's another thing I can't wrap my head around because the area it sits on is so small. There's barely and surface area to grease...and why would that be so dependent on temperature?? It is 100% fine when cold...

what would you do, pull the trans or replace hydros?

[KATOOM]

Well here's my logic as to what I thought caused mine to do what it did.....  The grease contamination from clutch dust affected the lubrication as the throwout moved across the shaft.  Maybe the difference in time is because your clutch is different company, different material, or had more initial break in dust, and/or maybe you slip the clutch more that I do.  There doesn't have to be such a black and white reason.....

When I pulled my tranny back to investigate, I took notice that the grease on the input shaft sleeve was clearly crudded up.  Obviously not what someone would want on there.  But.....this was the kicker part I cant confirm.  I believe there also was a problem with the overall specs of the SB throwout bearing, meaning it was in spec but possibly fitting tighter than the new SFK throwout bearing I changed it out for.  Remember, these throwout bearings are built to OEM specs by a third party supplier.  Who that is?.....know one seems to know, but I'm guessing China.  So because the specs were potentially a tad less tolerant and with a combination of the grease thickened up, it resulted in a sticky clutch pedal, which also was more problematic when things were warmer too.  A part I didnt include in that other thread.  Which is why I'm very insistent that you MUST pull the slave when everything is warmed up and the clutch pedal is feeling sticky and then assess the movement of the throwout.  No matter if things are hot or cold, that throwout bearing should move with effortless ease along the sleeve.

And the lack of grease on the fork face would offer a very minor change in how things feel.  As you pointed out yourself, the area thats greased is tiny and is only there to allow the bearing to rock on the fork face as everything moves.  Not much else going on so any lack of grease will result in just a little added wear over time.

So.....again, you can replace the hydro's and see what happens or pull the tranny back.  Maybe Valair also mentioned that a bad pressure plate will cause an odd feel in the clutch pedal too but usually such an issue creates a jerky clutch engagement feel too because the pressure plate isnt moving geometrically flat along its movement.

[dripley]

Like I said earlier that might have been the reason that my throw out bearing went at 70k. There was little to no grease in the input tube.And what was there was crudded up like Katoom mentions. It might have been the reason my clutch was so grabby, but it did not improve with the new throw out bearing and grease. It was not until later in the life of the clutch that I felt it was binding. As far as replacing the hydros, welcome to personal choice time. It is your time and your money. Judging from what I experienced I would say pull the tranny and that is the last thing I would want to do.

Another thought is it possible you put the clutch fork on backwards? It is very easy to do. I have read that can cause this issue. When mine went I thought it was possible I had but the man that installed my SB told me it was in there right. 

[leathermaneod]

Thanks for the info guys. Katoom, I did use an SKF bearing from Napa, not the one that came with the clutch kit. When you talk about pulling the trans back, I assume you mean not totally removing it. How do you do that while still having room to replace the throwout bearing? 

Dripley, I am very sure the fork is on correctly. I made sure to match it the way the old one was, but thank you for the suggestion!

By the way, I am sorry I seem so stubborn on not wanting to pull the trans. Its not that I don't believe you guys, just hate to have to do that again obviously. Plus I don't have a place to do it. 

Also, I believe I have a new plan on how to move forward. AutoZone tells me that their warranty is no questions asked, and they will except a return on the hydros if they don't fix my problem! So I will be getting them, bench bleeding them, and hopefully installing them on saturday. Then I'll let you all know how things work out.