Injector Flap on Dodge Cummins Diesel Forum!

[War Eagle]

Has anyone seen the Bosch injector flap?  The issue seems to be surrounding who is authorized to market and sell Bosch and BMS injectors and/or use the Bosch name in their marketing.

 

Seems like some vendors are being implicated as using fraudulent methods in selling Bosch and/or BMS.

 

I don't need injectors and don't have a dog in this fight, but would like any insight into this issue.

 

http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/3rd-gen-powertrain/2297658-regarding-jkidd-dap-bosch.html

[notlimah]

Yea I've read through them but haven't kept up with it. I don't have a 3rd gen so the injector issue of who can or can't sell the Bosch stuff really isn't a huge deal for me. The big concern I have is that a company as large and well known as DAP is in the business of selling injectors they shouldn't be selling them. As well as marketing them as brand new which apparently they aren't. 

 

Overall it just seems sketchy.

Edited July 31, 2017 by notlimah

[TFaoro]

Read it..... Interesting thread. Makes it hard to want a 5.9 CR considering the BS from multiple suppliers.

From the sounds of it, there are no "budget" injectors that are reliable for a 5.9. I only have experience with Exergy (which are awesome btw) but I would hate to have some of the nightmares these other guys are having.

[CTcummins24V]

My buddy went through that on his early 07. 2 sets of reman/aftermarket then finally a set of new bosch to make it right.

[TFaoro]

3 minutes ago, CTcummins24V said:

My buddy went through that on his early 07. 2 sets of reman/aftermarket then finally a set of new bosch to make it right.

Do you remember where he got them?

[CTcummins24V]

The first 2 sets out of tennesse, I want to say Swamps but not positive. Then he went through BD.

[dieselautopower]

Hi,

 

Michael alerted me to this thread and we had a long conversation regarding the thread and other things.  That thread has some good tech info in it and some good questions. There is a lot of accusations and hot air as well.  Happy to answer questions and hope this forum will be more about tech and solutions than starting fires.   DAP does not sell used injectors as new.  DAP wants to clearly describe the injectors we sell and want to do so without upsetting Bosch regarding trademarks or logos.  I have emails pending for how we can describe better so we can be withing the guidelines Bosch has requested of DAP and other sellers.

 

The injector in question received by 03Dodge2500 came out of a Cummins box with a Cummins part # on it -- that would seem to mean that it made its way into production.  A fuel connector tube was also in that box an may have accounted for the minor scratches on it as pictured.  Customer was advised the body was the older phosphate style coating and given the option to wait for an incoming shipment and he opted to send the ones we had.  We verified flow on the test bench and everything was in spec. Had I known the  injector was as old as it was I would have either not sold it or had a more detailed discussion and a price reduction. Customer 03Dodge2500  is going to get a set of 0445120255 next week as an exchange.  The injectors were installed and are running in  the truck without issues.  He and I have had discussions several times.  He is nice and has not advocated for the drama brought forth by others in the thread.  There should be resolution for 03Dodge2500 next week.   I am looking forward to it.

 

We have been selling new and reman injectors from Bosch for many years.  We do not have a contract to buy directly from Bosch as a Drive in center or as a distributor.  It does not make sense for our business to be under a Bosch authorized contract as the contract forbids sale and advertisement of common rail injectors on the internet.  There are many channels that new Bosch injectors can be purchased.  Bosch dealers, distributors and regional distributors are often happy to have the extra business and sell in  (and often outside) of their proscribed territories to move product and get profits.

 

The letters from Bosch rep posted in the thread show that DAP is in compliance with the request to remove logos and trademarks. Here is the background:  I received a letter/phone call in February 2017 and discussed with Bosch rep by phone and email the changes that were happening with Bosch and Bosch Motorsports.  It was a cease and desist request to use the term BMS, BOSCH Motorsports.  It was the first request we had received to make name changes. Bosch Motorsport was aware of DAP using the term BMS several years prior and asked only that we include in the description "for offroad use only" on performance injectors.  DAP happily complied. I was told during the conversation Feb-March 2017, that Bosch Motorsports is no longer selling injectors to anyone and all sellers were to refrain from using the term BMS or Bosch Motorsports, but that DAP can state that injectors are built on new Bosch bodies.  To my knowledge no one is allowed to use BOSCH in caps or the BOSCH logo regarding the sale of injectors (exergy and S&S are possibly the exception).  I imagine this is a sore spot with the larger Bosch Aftermarket division as they are still prohibited from selling on the internet.  

 

The 254 and 256 injectors were the injectors sold as Bosch Motorsports.  We have a good supply of them.  The same injectors are available through multiple channels. They have needle lift so that the flows of the injectors are greater at full load flow as compared to a 255 or 238.  Following Bosch Motorsports request, DAP created a new name, "Dagger", as others also made new names,  to market the injectors in a way that is not using BMS (as no one is using the BMS name any more.... I assume its to limit confusion from EPA and the meeting where Bosch Aftermarket re-affirmed its control over distribution).  BMS no longer sells full injectors, but does offer components.  This was sad for me as I had conversations with BMS regarding buy in and purchase of injectors at a very significant discount that hopefully could have been passed on to customers.  254 and 256 are the base injectors for our Dagger High Flow series.

 

There was some confusion on the 007 injectors being able to run in a dodge.  It is very similar to the early 03-04 injectors which can last +200k miles.   We use these in the Dagger series. They do run, have the same 143* spray, same body, solenoid and a ton of other parts.  Full fuel calibration is different by about 2% greater flow at 1600BAR 1700us and I confirmed from two Bosch authorized sources that they would work and sent them in for testing.  Got the green light.  Tested them in house as well.  Sold first sets about 6 years ago.  DAP has recently acquired a good source for them with good supply and price which we can pass along to customers.  They work pretty well and they are a decent value for genuine new injectors.  

 

Shortly we will have more detailed descriptions, flow rates etc for the commonrail injectors.  Its been on my list for some time to get rid of "HP" and put actual flow in LPM with calibration fluid at 100BAR of nozzles and mm3 flow of the complete assembled injector.  Its a lot to compile.  We did this some time ago with our 12v and 24v injectors with printed flow rates and % over stock application.  BBI has done a good job on being transparent and posting flows and not using air as method to determine flow of nozzles.

 

It is our desire to provide customers with a quality product and several options based on customers budget and power needs.  If you have more questions you are welcome to email or PM me.  

[Mopar1973Man]

Thank you @dieselautopower for coming over here and handling this thread...

[notlimah]

Cool, thanks for giving your side of the story. Was hard to get a good read on things once this whole topic was brought up and how everyone was reacting, but it didn't seem like we were getting the whole side from both parties. 

[adamey1000]

I have read the entire thread, and I just don’t understand the venom over there. I have spent ALOT of money with DAP, and I have never been anything but 100% satisfied. Granted, my truck is 24v but DAP has always been great. It looks like there may have been a little confusion on what some customers thought they were buying, but the only real evidence that I saw presented was several customers who got exactly what they paid for, and one customer who didn’t. But in that case, it looks like DAP made it right.

 

I actually came to the vendor area or area to contact Jacob/DAP about yet another purchase. Read that whole thread, and I am still confident that you guys sell great products at a great price. Keep doing what you do. I’m going to start a new thread with some questions on the Quadzilla adr. 

[dieselautopower]

Thank you.  We have taken care to update descriptions so hopefully no one can misunderstand what they are purchasing.  There needs to be more transparency.   We buy parts cheaper than those suppliers in our territory will supply and pass that savings to our customers.  There were multiple issues to discuss.  Some specific to DAP and others a referendum on the industry as a whole.  Unfortunately a civil discussion was made difficult by certain members and vendors and conflation and confusion of multiple issues made discussion difficult.  

 

We have been in business for 10 years.  Check out the site for our anniversary sale (including no core on 99% of 5.9L and 6.7L common rail injectors. We are adding more to it daily.  We want to give back to our customers.  We are grateful for your support!