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rogerash0

VP44 PSG5 limitations read/write

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rogerash0    0
rogerash0

Hey guys,

 

I cant find the thread I was reading where you all were talking about the PSG being the actual 65HP limitation /w the smarty or non wire tap programmers on the vp44. I got interested and I found a lot of info out there, primarily some french guys where I used google to translate. showing clips to read the 24 series eeprom with 3M clips. They eventually caught on that you could put 5v to one of the legs on the chip and make it no longer read-only (this is common, and I suspected it). Because their forum is invite only I couldnt download their diagrams or documentation they created. I also found some Indian website that showed how to read/write to the PSG /w an arduino, including wiring diagrams and so fourth. I cant find that in my history now either, but its in there somewhere. Anyways, here's the french lads that tackle read/write to the PSG. Every time they say "code", i think they mean "encrypted". I tried to join the French board but it seems to be invite only.

 

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tlemcen-electronic.com%2Fforum%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D12157

 

So bottom line is, I think we could read & write from the eeprom. The question is who is going to modify the code. I know somebody was saying it was encrypted, and that wouldnt surprise me, but it sounded like the french lads were pulling it encrypted. If we could find out what it's encrypted with, and we rented some Amazon AWS servers, run a linux shell to brute force it or rainbow table it, whatever it be. I have to guess that 1998 encryption schemes would be very crackable these days. The Geforce 1080 is no joke /w 2x the power of the 980 and half the power consumption. I saw 3M connectors to read from it without taking it off the board. It sounds like they wrote to it by enabling 5v on the correct pin/leg of the chip (I dont know which exactly b/c I couldnt get to their attachments), but soldering a new one on /w a fresh flash is something I imagine could be more convenient. I did come across pin diagrams for the chip on either their site or another. I dont know if you'd have to take the 5v away from it after the write, but by the way they talked it didnt sound like it. Hard to tell through translation, though.

 

Other interesting links:
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.vp44diesel.de/de/pumpen-vp44-psg-16&prev=search

http://codecard.eu/carprog/software/by-obdii-for-opel-psg16-diesel-pump-read/repair-mileage-read-pin-reset-ecu/prod_375.html

I requested an invite code, see post #6 here http://mhhauto.com/Thread-zafira-pump-psg16-replacement-and-programming

Cheapest place I have seen carprog http://www.ecutool.com/CARPROG-FULL-with-all-Softwares-Activated-and-all-21-Adapters_8243.html#5

 

Essentially I recently became knee deep in this hobby. I have a 98.5 24v /w D&J motor built to 700hp spec /w CNC'd head on intake & exhaust, 62/68/0.80 + S475/96/1.32 twins, currently running 50hp inectors /w new Edge Juice Comp with smarty SO3 on the side. I have 120hp DDP injectors next to me that just got backfrom warranty, which Lenny looked at personally. The first time around Brian handled it. I've spent a lot of time fixing drive pressure and boost pressure leaks, I think they are 99% sorted based on the performance I'm feeling. I need to do another boost test leak. More on things: 5" down pipe, mishi rad & intercooler, banks monster intake, blah blah. Still only seeing 43lbs of boost. Without the wiretap I only saw 28 psi max on a brand new Industrial Injection VP44. After putting my old pump back on, that is wiretapped, I once again saw 43psi. This is what enlightened me to the necessity of having proper fueling. I'm so far into this VP44 platform now that I wont be switching to CP3, unfortunately. Got it all mated to a Firepunk Comp I in a ext cab LB chassis. I paid some guys to work on my truck and was so let down that I learned the hard way, the only way is to do it yourself.

 

I come from a background of computers and dirt bikes. My dad was a firmware/software/hardware engineer who came to the US from Australia. Due to him being an alcoholic I wouldnt waste my time asking for his advice, but once upon a time he was very smart knowing low level stuff like assembly (programming), layers to protocols, making PCB's, soldering them all up, programming them all up, etc. Credit card readers & bill acceptors seemed to be his bread and butter primarily. Also some assembly line stuff like productivity displays, etc. For roughly 20 yrs he worked solo as his own contractor. 

 

Perhaps this could lead somewhere? I'm considering sending back my II VP44 for a hodrod pump, seeing as my tapped reman VP44 that came on the truck is running just as good & better with the wiretap. I had previously bought the new std output VP44 from II as a method to troubleshoot a hard-start condition when (almost) eveyrthing else had been tried. Turned out to be a drive pressure leak @ the 90* hot pipe connecting the turbos -- I fixed it, and the truck starts as it should.


Sorry if this is in the wrong section.

 

 

 

 

 

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Me78569    1,930
Me78569

I will reply more in depth later, but the issue with the 65 hp limit, is actually a 2^12 limit in the communication protocol.  Is you can't fuel more than 4096 and timing can't be more than 4096.  

 

In theory you code make the psg decide the fueling command as a higher us of fuel, but you are still limited by the protocol in place.  

 

Just keep in mind the VP isn't actually "limiting fueling". That 65 is just how much fuel the system was designed to handle.  I would guess that wiretap adds about %20-%25 over what canbus tuners can do now.

 

 

Edited by Me78569

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Me78569    1,930
Me78569

alright so I am back.  

 

From everything I have read and seen I dont think there is a lot to unlock in the psg.  The ECM is what is controlling everything, the PSG is just following commands.  I don't really see what is the gain by unlocking the psg truthfully.  I doubt there are any major fueling / Timing tables in the psg.  

 

Can you direct me to information that states that we would really gain anything by unlocking / flashing the psg?  I dont think there is much there other than a offset to say x duration = x fueling command.

 

I am very curious to see where you take this whole thing though.  

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jlbayes    258
jlbayes

As far as the fueling goes, I would consider finding a better injector builder as your current choices are not going to support 700hp on even a semi legit dyno. There was a gentleman on compd 4 or 5 years ago we believe unlocked the psg, he was from Sweden iirc. But he fell off the face of the Earth before confirming he was actually successful on his endeavor.

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Mopar1973Man    3,696
Mopar1973Man
12 minutes ago, jlbayes said:

But he fell off the face of the Earth before confirming he was actually successful on his endeavor.

 

Seems like a lot of people that unlock secrets on these truck tend to all disappear at some point. :sofa:

Edited by Mopar1973Man

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Me78569    1,930
Me78569

they prob kill themselves after dealing with all the oddities of the electoronics.  

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jlbayes    258
jlbayes
1 hour ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

Seems like a lot of people that unlock secrets on these truck tend to all disappear at some point. :sofa:

 

Noticed that too eh? lol

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rogerash0    0
rogerash0

I agree, even with all new sensors across the entire truck things still seem hokey. For some reason another thread led me to believe the PSG is what needed unlocked, so I had hoped to help dump its contents, perhaps decrypt em and then it sounds like another member or two here would have potentially been interested in modifying them.

Is the PSG a 12bit system or is the canbus? Either way.. no point in trying to revent the wheel when Smarty has figured out the ECM fueling tables.

Here's an interesting page that shows the eeprom at the bottom: http://www.remmington.info/testrepairs.html

Based on this quote here, it leads me to believe the Bosch test benches could make our pumps fuel harder, but they dont because then Bosch would be compromising their name/emissions/reliability of the unit.

Info about re-programming:  PSG5 pumps.  If you are considering fitting a second-hand one!  Most VW & Rover pumps will need re-programming, its a bit hit & miss with GM Vauxhall & Ford, some will need programming, some will not!  Its a bit of a myth that they all need doing (ex main-dealers).  It's all to due with matching protocol & setting the parameters, not security numbers.  But it has to be said, that several of our trade customers have retro-fitted second hand pumps, expecting problems and they have subsequently started & run ok.  Very few EDC pumps will need a Bosch KTS type laptop connected to the 16pin diagnostic plug on re-fitting, to set min/max fuel delivery, IE volume, idle speed! Governed RPM min-max.  All the settings are the same ex the factory, these settings only get altered, if the pump has been fitted to different vehicle, or the settings have been changed in an attempt to overcome a problem.  Bosch pumps are the most user friendly in this department.


From "Info about Reprogramming: http://www.remmington.info/edc diesel pump.htm

Nice breakout shot of the pump on this page:

http://www.remmington.info/pump-numbers.htm

 

Anyways, thats a shame the Sweedish guy went away. There's a lot of super bright minds out there.

 

I've found the DDP injectors to be really smokey and an overall let down. It's had me chasing drivepressure leaks, boost leaks, tunes, wastegate settings, almost anything I can do to make them drive cleaner. Ofcourse I should have gone quadzilla, but I got the new Edge Juice Comp tunes and I have a smarty so-3. Just today I plumbed in a regulator for the wastegate, but I think the arm's length is what really needs tuned most. I have a sensor between the S475 and 62SXE. Im getting like 18 psi out of the S475 when Im seeing 38psi overall under WOT. I figure thats pretty good? Overall the most boost I can generate is 42psi with 50hp injectors. That was the most I could generate with 120hp injectors too.. so I think something is up. The injectors went back, I spoke with Lenny and he personally checked em out. He raised the pop pressure 5 bar higher for a little cleaner burn and said they were fine. Who makes a better injector? My idea was to have the engine overbuilt. I'd like to see 600hp, but at this point I care more about driveability, smoke, and a good power curve than peak numbers.

 

Cutting off all flow to the wastegate seemed to do almost nothing, I think my boost raised to 42psi from 38 or 40, but really it jumps around from 38-42PSI at WOT just depending on when the drive pressure ramps up it seems. I have a drive pressure gauge and Im seeing anywhere from 32 PSI to 44 PSI of drive pressure when I'm WOT.

 

Looking at my Edge logs now, on my trip to Kalispell to adopt my new doggies, my max boost with max fueling at WOT was 39PSI. So when I saw 42PSI today with the wastegate closed off via the regulator I just put in, that probably was a legit 3PSI gain.

 

The highest drive pressure I show is 44psi while overall boost is 38psi; the lowest drive pressures whilst at (almost) max boost is drive pressure at 31psi when boost is 37psi, or 33psi drive when boost is 38psi.

 

Im sure you can tell I'm all over the place learning how to tune this thing. It seems to me like my 0.80ar housing almost negates the need for the wastegate to be open..... I dont know why Im not seeing higher pressures from my turbos :( I think the first person to read this would say I need more fuel, but I had the same overall max boost with the DDP 120's in. But since then I resealed the stg2 billet manifold, because it was leaking air like an SOB, and I also had a big drive pressure leak at the hot pipe. The truck drives a lot better, and the 50's went in when I fixed those leaks. So I probably need to put these 120's that just got back, back in, however the smoke I can still lay down with 50's in with just the Edge juice tuner on 5, 6 or 7 makes me not want to install em..

Im going to shorten the wastegate rod, just waiting for the truck to cool down, so the WG opens later, not as much, and I'll also make sure its cracking around 20-25psi. Im starting to feel like a 12cm housing on the 62/68SXE is the only way to get less smoke. If I take fuel away from it via my foot or less low end fueling, or a lower fueling setting from the Edge, it makes lighting the chargers a real slouch. I want to be able to light the chargers with a minimal amt of smoke, not a giant cloud. Much of the time I think its the damn trans being in 4th gear at 30mph, not downshifting to 2nd unless I put my foot 50% into the pedal. To make it not short shift on initial takeoff I have to be 40-60% into the pedal so it revs out and puts air to the chargers, but doing so mostly seems to make a smoke show unless I get lucky and apply the throttle just, just right. Or the sun lines up with the moon or whatever it be.

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Me78569    1,930
Me78569

Well I hate to say it but you really need to dump the stack.     I won't go into detail as I wrote and article covering it.  

 

 

 

 

as for reprogramming the psg to allow more fueling duration.  The way the system works, as far as I know, the ecm calculates the fueling needed based on a ton of inputs. It sends out a canbus command in the form of 55 59 20 00 00 00 88 cb 00 00 00 a9 05 22 0d   green being fueling command and Blue being timing command.  The VP44 intercepts the command and decodes the 0 -4096 commands as a duration of fueling and * of timing from 0* 30*.  Oem tuning command for fueling will reach ~3600 at their peak in the 1800-2200 rpm range, then fueling falls off.  Canbus tuners will allow that fueling to reach 4095 and stay there throughout the RPM range.  That is where that "65 hp" mark comes from.  

 

So a lot of tuners "abuse" this fueling command.  IE: the s03 depending on the level will max out fueling by ~%25 TPS input. 

Datalogs:

 

 

When you stack the Edge on top of it you will just make the issue worse.  With the S03 set to sw9 and the edge turned up to 5 x5 you would reach max fueling by ~%10-%15 throttle input. 

 

 

Again smoke is a large issue on bigger injector trucks if you aren't able to control fueling.    Hence why the V2 tuning was created for the Quadzilla.

More articles:

Depending on fueling mods, altitude and driving style you may need to pull fueling commands lower than stock by as much as %30 in order to be smoke free.   My Daily driver tune with 7 x .009 injectors has a starting point of %84 of stock fueling duration.  Where as the Edge and Smarty will jump right to %130- 150 of stock fueling depending on settings.  

 

 

As for smarty and their mm3 / touch setup.  It is very cool, but it still has the limits of the design of the system.  You can still only get a fueling command of 4096.  Also they have not opened up all of the tables in the ECM.  They have given users the ablity to alter the important ones as far as I can tell, but there are a TON of tables in the ecm.  If you research what Jdonghue did ~10 years ago you will find 2x 3x of the tables that the udc pro stuff has.  A lot of those are not really needed for the normal guy, but just keep in mind that there are much more tables in the ecm.     

 

Biggest issue I have with the udc pro is the cost for what you get.  If you wanted to have someone do the tuning for you it is gonna run at least $1500 for that "65 hp".  You can make the truck really driveable, BUT we have mechanically controlled injectors.  You can only do so much "tuning" before the limitations of the injector hole size vs pop pressure show up.  IE without jacking injection pressure up ( we can't really)  you can only get x amount of fuel atomized efficently at low RPMS through x size hole.

 

I would say it is pretty easy to get 7 x .011 and under to run clean " no matter what"  but as soon as you start getting bigger than that it is physically impossible to get our injectors at 310 bar to atomize fuel right offidle.  

 

 

As for Bosch being able to inject more fuel,  I am sure they can.  I am sure a lot of very bright engineers at bosch choose a fueling solenoid that fit the needs of the pump.  The specs of that solenoid's likely state that at 4096 command duration should be %100.     So yes I am sure they can fuel more with the right coding, but that would be outside of the spec of the hardware they choose for the pump. 

 

This is why wiretap came around;  as far as I can tell wiretap will add ~%20 fueling over OEM at max duration.  HOWEVER,  this %20 is out of spec for the hardware, thus why we know that wiretap boxes can lead to a rougher life for the vp44.

Edited by Me78569
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rogerash0    0
rogerash0

Just read the first sentence of your post. Sorry to mislead you, Im pretty **** at writing. Im not stacking the tuners.

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Me78569    1,930
Me78569
1 minute ago, rogerash0 said:

Just read the first sentence of your post. Sorry to mislead you, Im pretty **** at writing. Im not stacking the tuners.

Quote

Essentially I recently became knee deep in this hobby. I have a 98.5 24v /w D&J motor built to 700hp spec /w CNC'd head on intake & exhaust, 62/68/0.80 + S475/96/1.32 twins, currently running 50hp inectors /w new Edge Juice Comp with smarty SO3 on the side.

so you aren't running both?  

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rogerash0    0
rogerash0

Ya, I mis-wrote that. I have both tuners -- I said on the side, because the smarty sits in the floorboard of my truck mostly for troubleshooting & what not. I bought it because everybody was Smarty this and smarty that, so I guess I had to see what it was all about. It does feel smoother than the Edge. Before I did a bunch of upgrades, my truck came with the old monochrome Edge Juice unit which I noticed had way better topend than the Smarty. The Smarty felt like the bottom end was definitely better. Now with this new Edge Juice Comp on there, the bottom end is a lot stronger, and it retains that "edge" topend, but perhaps the bottom is still a hair less fat than Smarty's. Perhaps.

 

I like how you can command less than stock fueling /w your quad tunes. That's awesome. I also do a lot of reading (and just opened up 9 more articles from the repository of write-ups you guys did & have posted here) -- so I had seen your Quad v2 with and without tunes video from some posts on Cumminsfourm, as much as I despise that forum. I read all about MM3 on Duramax tuner, then saw the big CF thread where they talk about no actual results & the high high price tag.

 

To pull fueling commands lower than stock, perhaps I could try the Smarty 1/2 HP tune with the edge stacked on top of it. My current edge has the lowend fueling 1-5 option, timing 1-5 option, and power levels 1-7. Sounds stupid, definitely not optimal, but to dump more money into this truck right now for a quad just isnt in my budget. Not for another year I must say. Soon in November I have to move from Montana to Virginia, so I'll be going from 3200' elevation to sea level, so that will help some. Before then I plan to tow a 30' trailer with this truck & all my stuff across the 2400mi trip.. So the driveability of this truck is definitely important, or vital rather.

 

My Reman VP that came on the truck when I bought it which has been wiretapped since I bought it, idles just as smooth as the brand new II VP44 std output pump I just bought. I had the reman VP44 on there, threw the II VP44 on, then threw the reman VP44 back on. What I saw for sure was 28PSI with std output VP44 pump maxed out /w edge juice comp. Smarty stack did not a thing more (did that just for troubleshooting). With the old pumped wire tapped I went right back to the 38-42psi max. II says if I send the std output pump back, I can upgrade to the hotrod pump for the difference minus a $40-$60 fee to recalibrate the pump Im sending back. Seems to me like more fuel is what this truck needs to get the boost levels Im expecting. Bigger injectors doesnt seem to be the ticket, but I cant say for sure until I throw these 120's back in since I've fixed drive pressure & boost leaks as of recent. Ofcourse my common sense tells me the hotrod pump will make it idle rougher and even more smokey. My hopes are that it can light the chargers quicker and easier, making for a cleaner burn way earlier in the powerband. And ofcourse I cant choose to run it with the 50hp injectors. That's why I really want to get this wastegate business sorted, to make sure my chargers are atleast spinning up optimally. I've tried an S475 with a 1.10 exhaust housing, and a 1.32 housing that's on it now, and I lost a couple points in boost. Went from like 46-48psi max boost down to 40-42psi max boost. The midrange power I lost felt neglegant, and the motor sounds like it breathes even smoother and comes even more to life in the topend. Ofcourse topend isnt what I'm neccessarily after, but it felt like what I gained was more than what I lost going to the 1.32 housing. Much to my surprise. I'd have to do a 1.10 housing swap on the same day again to re-evaluate my statements there.

Edited by rogerash0

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Me78569    1,930
Me78569

You want to stick with the SO vp44.  The performance pumps are typically a mismatch of parts between ho and so to get higher timing.  

 

Your smoke issues sound like they are related to the injectors. DDP's are known to be smokey.  As for better injectors there are a number of good builders, but the price depends on the level you want.

 

The smartys bottom end feels fatter because of the way it fuels.  The logs speak from themselves haha.  

 

I tried the half power mode with the old quad tunes.  It was meh at best lol.  Just not a great solution, too much fuel pulled.   I would try and recoup your investment by selling the smarty, the ddp 120's etc.  Get some better injectors and see how you like it.   The edge I ran was VERY smokey on sub level 3+ though.  It really doesn't take but a % more fuel to make haze tune to smoke.

 

 

I am really not a fan of the calibrated performance mm3 offering.  They really misled guys and we have yet to see any actual info in regards to how it drives.  lots of half truths involved with it.  We know mm3 is really cool, we need to know how cool it is. Can it make 7 x .012's run clean?  I few guys have claimed the moon, but never showed anything after being asked to.  Too much smoke and mirrors in the 2nd gen world.  

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rogerash0    0
rogerash0

Agreed on much of what you wrote. Perhaps I'll see about sending the SO VP pump back, since it wasnt my hard start problem after all. Fixing the drive pressure leaks actually fixed my hard start problem. Resetting the manifold and turbos and all associated piping was my last ditch effort before sending it on it's way to Lenny. He offered to work on it for me, despite having no time, but I really didnt want him doing that, because he assuredly has exactly that: no time to work on it. My injectors getting tested and returned many days later than I was quoted was a clear indication to me.

 

It might be better if I tap the new II VP44 and sell the reman. My reman acutally has 036 on the key, and the new II pump had 035. I found the woodruff key listing on this very website that showed what key went to what serial pump, and 036 on my reman is the very "latest" / last on the list. Does this mean the 035 II VP44 is actually a pump with one less update?

 

I bought the DDP's because for all I knew they were the best. I thought with 8 holes smoke would be less, but I certainly didnt hold that to be certain. I noticed my 50HP injectors (which came in the truck when I bought it) are also 8 hole injectors, but the tips must be VCO because they are different to my DDP tips which have gone to SAC. I could see that being a cause of the smoke. The only haze I have at idle is white smoke, from my exhaust valve guides leaking oil into the manifold. Im not sure why or how this happened, I just know my exhaust valve seals were bad from D&J when I checked em out with hardly any miles on the motor. They sent new OEM seals and a spring compressor to swap em out, so I did just that, and the new seals went bad just like the others. Some valves had more play than others, so I think the guides are no good. Not sure what caused that to happen. If I run the truck hard a time or two it clears out til the next cold start. If I drive it easily all week with not WOT pulls it gets pretty bad. Needs cleaned out per say. :(

 

I could control my smoke pretty well with the old school Edge, simply by not laying my foot too far into it too fast, that's what led me to get my new one. Also, what ultimately did it, was the Tech on the phone said he would give me something crazy like 35% off retail MSRP (he actually said 35% off the price, later to find out it was off retail MSRP). He said I could send in my old one to get that % credit off. Then he said to just keep my old one, because they would throw it away anyway. Your advice on selling my junk laying around for a quad is good advice.. I might get around to doing that. Out here in MT theres a million buyers I'm pretty sure.

 

As soon as Calibrated Power mentioned they were stacking on top of an Edge Comp I was completely unimpressed.. I dont see how you are gonna run any cleaner or better than the Edge Comp when it's your baseline.

 

Nobody here is planning on going to the NHRDA in Billings MT later this month are they? I bet we could pick brains & talk 2nd gens all day & a half.

 

It should be noted that Im currently running 35's, but am anxious to get my stock third gen wheels back on to re-witness good spool up. 

 

Odd ball questions I've had for a long time:

1) Is a lockup switch really as easy as running two wires, and is it practical / worthwhile? With a Comp I trans, I've been told I could do lockup in 2nd gear and run fast times. My intuition says that's probably a bad idea, any comments? More often than not, when the truck locks in OD it lugs pretty bad, and I hear what I think is the converter making a metal metallic sound like something bad. It seems to go away when Im 10-12mph past lockup. Most of all, the smoke and lack of repressiveness when it locks it something I am not a fan of. It's primarily a problem in town when Im not on the hwy, especially with a cold(er) motor.

 

2) I replaced all my u-joints maybe 1-2 yrs ago and my clunk when I drop it into reverse went away. Now its back intermittently, not as loud or as badly as before though. Is it u-joints again?

 

3) Do boosted launches kill the driveline, ie. u-joints and rear differential? I have yet to do one.

 

4) Does anyone else have an auto that clunks into third pretty bad 25-50% of the time?

 

5) Would it be OK to take a 12v line from the battery straight to the relay solenoids to make them enable manually? With a switch inline. Because the output from the ECM is 5v, so Im curious if it would hurt anything. Reason why I ask is first start of the day is a hard start unless my Wait to Start light comes on, then it fires up easy. I have wired this aforementioned circuit up before, but it didnt seem to make a difference. Then I learnt how everything off the ECM is 5v, and since have been afraid to try it again. Seems like the hard start issues came after I had a dealer update the PCM. I told them to update the ECM, per Air Dog manual. Well, they did the PCM, and lets just say it seems that didnt do the truck any favors. I got to go in the back and see the Dodge software with all the options. I took some pics of the screen and saw what they could put on there. Bottom line was I had the most up to date software (AE) already. They re-flashed before I got to go in the back, unfortunately. That same day and hour they killed another persons PCM trying to do a re-flash on it. I was in the waiting area with them.

Edited by rogerash0

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Dieselfuture    288
Dieselfuture

I just had to put all new valve guides in my head, 10 or 12 of them were pretty lose and had oil resedue inside at least on the exhaust ones that I could see, guides were oveled out and that's what machine shop told me too if I put new seals in it will eat them up quickly. So I ended up putting all new guides. Not what I wanted to do on a head that only had 155k on it. At least it wasn't cracked,  these heads are hit and miss. 

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Me78569    1,930
Me78569
4 hours ago, rogerash0 said:

Agreed on much of what you wrote. Perhaps I'll see about sending the SO VP pump back, since it wasnt my hard start problem after all. Fixing the drive pressure leaks actually fixed my hard start problem. Resetting the manifold and turbos and all associated piping was my last ditch effort before sending it on it's way to Lenny. He offered to work on it for me, despite having no time, but I really didnt want him doing that, because he assuredly has exactly that: no time to work on it. My injectors getting tested and returned many days later than I was quoted was a clear indication to me.

 

It might be better if I tap the new II VP44 and sell the reman. My reman acutally has 036 on the key, and the new II pump had 035. I found the woodruff key listing on this very website that showed what key went to what serial pump, and 036 on my reman is the very "latest" / last on the list. Does this mean the 035 II VP44 is actually a pump with one less update?

Key numbers are related to a needed Timing offset, not a Pump revision number

 

I bought the DDP's because for all I knew they were the best. I thought with 8 holes smoke would be less, but I certainly didnt hold that to be certain. I noticed my 50HP injectors (which came in the truck when I bought it) are also 8 hole injectors, but the tips must be VCO because they are different to my DDP tips which have gone to SAC. I could see that being a cause of the smoke. The only haze I have at idle is white smoke, from my exhaust valve guides leaking oil into the manifold. Im not sure why or how this happened, I just know my exhaust valve seals were bad from D&J when I checked em out with hardly any miles on the motor. They sent new OEM seals and a spring compressor to swap em out, so I did just that, and the new seals went bad just like the others. Some valves had more play than others, so I think the guides are no good. Not sure what caused that to happen. If I run the truck hard a time or two it clears out til the next cold start. If I drive it easily all week with not WOT pulls it gets pretty bad. Needs cleaned out per say. :(

 

I could control my smoke pretty well with the old school Edge, simply by not laying my foot too far into it too fast, that's what led me to get my new one. Also, what ultimately did it, was the Tech on the phone said he would give me something crazy like 35% off retail MSRP (he actually said 35% off the price, later to find out it was off retail MSRP). He said I could send in my old one to get that % credit off. Then he said to just keep my old one, because they would throw it away anyway. Your advice on selling my junk laying around for a quad is good advice.. I might get around to doing that. Out here in MT theres a million buyers I'm pretty sure.

I am not suggesting to sell it and get a Quad, just sell the extra stuff you have.  If you like what the Quad does that is fine, if you like the edge then that is fine as well.  Just educate yourself in terms of how stuff works so you don't fall victim to the smoke and mirrors.

 

As soon as Calibrated Power mentioned they were stacking on top of an Edge Comp I was completely unimpressed.. I dont see how you are gonna run any cleaner or better than the Edge Comp when it's your baseline.

The issue is that they claim it worked with the edge.  That's total BS, the edge takes in the fueling / timing commands and alters them based on their own maps.  Calibrated doesn't know the edge maps. all adding the edge on top would do is fuel more at every point and add timing at every point.  

 

Nobody here is planning on going to the NHRDA in Billings MT later this month are they? I bet we could pick brains & talk 2nd gens all day & a half.

 

It should be noted that Im currently running 35's, but am anxious to get my stock third gen wheels back on to re-witness good spool up. 

The right size tires will help a lot.

 

Odd ball questions I've had for a long time:

1) Is a lockup switch really as easy as running two wires, and is it practical / worthwhile? With a Comp I trans, I've been told I could do lockup in 2nd gear and run fast times. My intuition says that's probably a bad idea, any comments? More often than not, when the truck locks in OD it lugs pretty bad, and I hear what I think is the converter making a metal metallic sound like something bad. It seems to go away when Im 10-12mph past lockup. Most of all, the smoke and lack of repressiveness when it locks it something I am not a fan of. It's primarily a problem in town when Im not on the hwy, especially with a cold(er) motor.

Lockup switch can be helpful in various situtations, but you need to know how to use it.  I use it with the EB and when towing in 2nd when gaining speed.

 

2) I replaced all my u-joints maybe 1-2 yrs ago and my clunk when I drop it into reverse went away. Now its back intermittently, not as loud or as badly as before though. Is it u-joints again?

Gonna have to check.  we can't tell you.  Look for movement

 

3) Do boosted launches kill the driveline, ie. u-joints and rear differential? I have yet to do one.

yes

 

4) Does anyone else have an auto that clunks into third pretty bad 25-50% of the time?

Nope, Check your TC bolts

5) Would it be OK to take a 12v line from the battery straight to the relay solenoids to make them enable manually? With a switch inline. Because the output from the ECM is 5v, so Im curious if it would hurt anything. Reason why I ask is first start of the day is a hard start unless my Wait to Start light comes on, then it fires up easy. I have wired this aforementioned circuit up before, but it didnt seem to make a difference. Then I learnt how everything off the ECM is 5v, and since have been afraid to try it again. Seems like the hard start issues came after I had a dealer update the PCM. I told them to update the ECM, per Air Dog manual. Well, they did the PCM, and lets just say it seems that didnt do the truck any favors. I got to go in the back and see the Dodge software with all the options. I took some pics of the screen and saw what they could put on there. Bottom line was I had the most up to date software (AE) already. They re-flashed before I got to go in the back, unfortunately. That same day and hour they killed another persons PCM trying to do a re-flash on it. I was in the waiting area with them.

If your WTS doesn't come on right away then you have a ECM that is dying.  that is sign #1.

in red.

Edited by Me78569
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rogerash0    0
rogerash0

Dieselfuture: You had to pull the head to do that right? What was the cost and down time? I have photos of my exhaust valves that I could see with the mani off. Not real pretty in my eyes. The roofs of the ports were clearly wet with oil. Do you know what causes this? I dont know if I changed the breakin oil too early, I let EGTs get too hot for too long (I dont think so), or what the root cause was. I wish I knew what caused it. I know Jared at D&J got my email. He's speedy replying to emails. But he didnt reply to that one /w pics included.

 

When my motor was installed I had the torque converter bolts replaced with ARP bolts. I didnt have the bad noises from the TC until after the motor was put in, though. Perhaps the installer didnt torque them in the right pattern or to the right torque? Hard to say. Only thing I know is Im never relying on a another mechanic for the rest of my life. Period. Faster, easier and cheaper to do it right myself. Atleast things get done 90% right.

 

My WTS light does come on when the whole dash illuminates. And it comes on right away when its cold out. Its summer time right now though, so on warm mornings/nights its not coming on. That makes sense, doesnt it? Like this morning it was 50 degrees at 9am, so it came on loud and proud for a good 10 sec I wanna say. I have actually swapped ECM's with one from Rocky Mountain Cummins and ruled mine out to be fine. I was having alternator charging problems, and it turned out to be a relay despite it ohming out per FSM instructions/values. 1.47k ohms or something iirc.

 

When twisting the driveshaft to check for u-joint wear, I thought it always has a little slop left and right. Is this not the case?

I went to 35's to smoothen the ride. I was coming out of a 07 Chevy 1500. 35's helped a ton, whilst on 16" rims still. Carli suspension did about 50%, tires did the other 50%. I previously hadnt gone back to stock size tires because I had my camper hitch setup for the height of my truck on 35's, and the nut on that thing is torqued to like 200 ft lbs or something insane. Not something I wanted to keep swapping around.

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Dieselfuture    288
Dieselfuture

If you had your engine rebuilt recently and your guides are bad already it has nothing to do with changing brake in oil too soon that stuff is mainly for seating rings to cylinder and braking cam in. There is not much oil that gets passed seals unless seals are old and wore out. Plus they put thick oil on valves before sliding them in to head. On older motors where they just used umbrella seals more oil got on valves to keep it lubed up, in my opinion these newer positive seals almost seal too good. 

There is a good chance they overlooked your valves and called it good. Not all of them were bad on mine, and I only checked few and got lucky/unlucky and only seen the good ones so when I got to the machine shop to drop the head off, he said your guides are shot and need new ones, I said no way I just checked them, he said did you check all of them. Well sure enough. I spent  $1000 on the head. Surface, mag, pressure test, 3 angle valve job, all new seats. He treated me right and I trust this place as I've been dealing with them for close to 20 years now. 

On your wts light it should come on every time you start the truck, doesn't matter how hot it gets. Good chance you cooked something with a bad alternator. 

Ujoints should not have any slop in any direction, 

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rogerash0    0
rogerash0

Man, wow. Why would the WTS light come on if the engine is warm? I know there's the bulb check, but didn't this site (and the FSM) have the chart with how long it stays on for, for a given temp out? I don't recall it ever staying on when the engine was warm or it was warm out. My truck has gone thru 3 alternators somehow. I'm hoping those days are behind me. My batteries are at 12.7v resting. Two 2 yr old yellow top Oltimas.

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Dieselfuture    288
Dieselfuture

Wts is also a communication between ecm and whatever else @Me78569 can explain better. If it doesn't come on then it's not getting booted and probably can cause all kinds of issues. When it's warm greeds will still cycle just won't stay on very long. 

A new alternator from part store can be junk, it can still charge but ac current will not pass. Most of time it's diodes or also brushes and Armature can cause ac noise. I rebuilt my alternator for that reason because ones from part store 90% of time are junk right of the shelf or in a short time will be junk. 

You can by a factory alternator from a site like moparpartsdiscount or something like that. 

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Mopar1973Man    3,696
Mopar1973Man
31 minutes ago, rogerash0 said:

Why would the WTS light come on if the engine is warm?

 

Because the first instruction after booting up the ECM is to light the WTS light and check IAT temperature and determine if grid heat is needed. If not the WTS light is only a bulb check. If there was bulb problem or wiring issue there would be P0381 error code. Watch you have to watch for is is the WTS light coming on instantly with the key or delaying a bit. The delay is caused from AC noise and the AC voltage managed to damage the ECM RAM so now its having problems booting up.

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jlbayes    258
jlbayes

If you are reading boost using the edge monitor they like to max out around 40psi for some reason. Had this issue when I was still vp powered.

 

Simple fact is if you want 600whp none of the injectors you have will support it. I have my personal favorites and know some others that build very nice injectors and would give you sticker shock over what ddp charges for their stuff.

 

If you want to drag race and run decent times, yes a lockup switch is needed.

 

Yes boosted launches will kill drivetrain parts. Oddly enough I do not seem to go through them like others. These trucks can be pretty tough.

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Me78569    1,930
Me78569
1 hour ago, rogerash0 said:

Man, wow. Why would the WTS light come on if the engine is warm? I know there's the bulb check, but didn't this site (and the FSM) have the chart with how long it stays on for, for a given temp out? I don't recall it ever staying on when the engine was warm or it was warm out. My truck has gone thru 3 alternators somehow. I'm hoping those days are behind me. My batteries are at 12.7v resting. Two 2 yr old yellow top Oltimas.

Be very clear, does the WTS light come on EVERY Time you key on?  If the truck is warm it should turn off right away, but it still comes on.  

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rogerash0    0
rogerash0

Yes, the WTS comes on every time I turn the key on. Instantly Im pretty sure, but I will take a short video to be sure. I previously bought a brand new Bosch alternator from Napa, the 136amp, because I read how problematic they were. I had also bought a new Mean Green in the past, when I had the motor installed, and I was told it was defective. So it got returned rather than swapped to save down time.

 

This morning, after talking to you guys, I noticed the WTS light didnt stay on, but my voltage was still going from 12.7 to 13.7. I could hear it in the motor initially, that's what made me look. The analog cluster doesnt show it, but my Edge display does. I was surprised, because the WTS light didnt come on, so I didnt think the grids would be cycling. The truck did start up without a hard start. I noticed my water separator drain was weeping ever so slightly, so I tightened it extra good n tight and hope that fixes my hard start. Otherwise the only thing left is the rubber fittings on the brass return T.

 

The truck is warm now, so I'll take the video of the WTS. When I previously measured AC voltage I thought it was low enough, but I cant recall if it was .01 (I think it was) or .1v. In my head I think .01-.03 was all that Moparman said was tolerable. There's a good chance those values are wrong in my head, so I'll measure it again here shortly.

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Me78569    1,930
Me78569

IF the WTS light comes on everytime right away then you are fine.  You had made it sound like you had hard start issues when the WTS light didn't come on.  

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