Lift Pump Question

[Dieselfuture]

Yes, what he said^^^ at least on mine. Although I didn't like pressure swings so I completely modified my basket, now I'm happy. 

[Marcus2000monster]

Finishing  up the install of the FASS  150 and I'm curious what you guys did with the extra length of wire harness? I cannot stand wires running all over under my hood so I'm thinking about coiling all the extra and zipting it to the pump area.... I'm  waiting for a fitting to arrive tomorrow and then hopefully I can get her running again! 

[trreed]

That’s what I did. And why the pump end of the harness has a coil memory

[Marcus2000monster]

2 minutes ago, trreed said:

That’s what I did. And why the pump end of the harness has a coil memory

Lol I did notice that! I'm gonna get the wiring all neat and tidy and hit the key to double check that its working.... Then I got to hope and pray my VP44 didn't **** on me too... 

[Mopar1973Man]

I've been known to chop the loom provided by both AirDog and FASS so there isn't a huge ball of snot wiring in the corner of the engine bay. That just look tacky. So I typically cut the loom and solder and shrink tube my spot then cover it with the split loom cover. No one even notices. The engine bay looks nice and clean.

[W-T]

15 hours ago, Marcus2000monster said:

Finishing  up the install of the FASS  150 and I'm curious what you guys did with the extra length of wire harness? I cannot stand wires running all over under my hood so I'm thinking about coiling all the extra and zipting it to the pump area.... I'm  waiting for a fitting to arrive tomorrow and then hopefully I can get her running again! 

This additional wire should be cut and dressed into the installation properly. Avoid the "coil" method as @Mopar1973Man has indicated. 

 

A "coil" of wire in certain circumstances can induce inductive reactance into the controlled circuit. I know we are only transporting B+ and ground in this instance however; correct electronic wire layout disciplines always calls for the "shortest path" to be adopted. This avoids "sympathetic" induction on the wires themselves and any surrounding conductive elements. 

 

Your new electromechanical  lift or transfer pump is being powered by a DC motor that most likely has carbon brushes making contact with the armature of the motor itself. The "spinning" of this armature at a given RPM with the "carbon brushes" are "making and breaking" contact with the armature. This is a "wide band spark gap transmitter" emitting "wide band" RF (radio frequency) hash across the entire usable Frequency Spectrum. Much of the harmful interference would be in the lower octaves of the spectrum between 500 kilohertz to perhaps the upper VHF frequencies around 165 Megahertz. Tune your factory AM radio to an unused frequency and if you hear "Hash or static" when your lift pump is operational then you have a "new" RF noise issue. The harness connects to your slave relay under the hood and provides B+ to power the lift pump. This "harness" acts as an antenna and it sympathetically radiates this RF hash through out your entire electrical system. Introducing a "coil" of wire to store unused wire length can inductively enhance this undesired aspect of a DC motor running within a closed electrical system.

 

BTW...the original Carter Pump, though a very poor pump, was beautifully electronically  by-passed internally....Carter Industries has real RF engineers on staff and the study of "silencing" the DC armature hash is FIRST CLASS ! They may make a very poor mechanical pump but, their electronics is EXCELLENT. No noise from a factory unit...all the high-end aftermarket Lift Pumps are very poorly electronically by-passed...try not to add an antenna to enhance this very undesired trait.This is the "by-pass" circuit board using "chip capacitors" that Carter uses to eliminate AC noise. I carefully cut open a Carter pump to observe their design. It's very good.      

[Marcus2000monster]

37 minutes ago, W-T said:

This additional wire should be cut and dressed into the installation properly. Avoid the "coil" method as @Mopar1973Man has indicated. 

 

A "coil" of wire in certain circumstances can induce inductive reactance into the controlled circuit. I know we are only transporting B+ and ground in this instance however; correct electronic wire layout disciplines always calls for the "shortest path" to be adopted. This avoids "sympathetic" induction on the wires themselves and any surrounding conductive elements. 

 

Your new electromechanical  lift or transfer pump is being powered by a DC motor that most likely has carbon brushes making contact with the armature of the motor itself. The "spinning" of this armature at a given RPM with the "carbon brushes" are "making and breaking" contact with the armature. This is a "wide band spark gap transmitter" emitting "wide band" RF (radio frequency) hash across the entire usable Frequency Spectrum. Much of the harmful interference would be in the lower octaves of the spectrum between 500 kilohertz to perhaps the upper VHF frequencies around 165 Megahertz. Tune your factory AM radio to an unused frequency and if you hear "Hash or static" when your lift pump is operational then you have a "new" RF noise issue. The harness connects to your slave relay under the hood and provides B+ to power the lift pump. This "harness" acts as an antenna and it sympathetically radiates this RF hash through out your entire electrical system. Introducing a "coil" of wire to store unused wire length can inductively enhance this undesired aspect of a DC motor running within a closed electrical system.

 

BTW...the original Carter Pump, though a very poor pump, was beautifully electronically  by-passed internally....Carter Industries has real RF engineers on staff and the study of "silencing" the DC armature hash is FIRST CLASS ! They may make a very poor mechanical pump but, their electronics is EXCELLENT. No noise from a factory unit...all the high-end aftermarket Lift Pumps are very poorly electronically by-passed...try not to add an antenna to enhance this very undesired trait.This is the "by-pass" circuit board using "chip capacitors" that Carter uses to eliminate AC noise. I carefully cut open a Carter pump to observe their design. It's very good.      

Wow that’s an earful! I might have to take care of that. Someone was saying that a protective relay needs to be installed also to eliminate hard starts from to much cranking fuel pressure?  Man I wish there was a way to make a carter flow better... like a 150gph lift pump minus the filters. Yes I do understand the principles of air separation. 

[trreed]

This is getting pretty complicated for a coil that's only three turns and about 5" in diameter... and also mounted to the FASS bracket.  Only things the induction would have affect on (and it would be very minimal) would be the wire harness for the tail lights/trailer wiring (separated from the FASS harness by the frame rail), and maybe the sending unit (separated by a plastic tank and fuel).  Using the formula L = (n^2*µ*A)/l where n = # of coil turns (3), µ = permeability (1.2566E-6 for air and water, 1.26E-4 for carbon steel), A = area of coil in meters (0.01266 m^2) and l = length of the coil in meters (~1.5" = 0.0381 m), we get a value of 3.621E-06 H or 3.621 µH of inductance into the air.  If we looked at the inductance through the frame rail, it is 3.63E-04 H, or 363 µH.

Sure, shortening the harness looks nicer.  But it is not mandatory, and inductance is minimal. 

Edited March 1, 2018 by trreed

[W-T]

Very good, and very true however; the inductance aspect of a coil of wire ( XL= 2* pi * f * L)

in regard to "frequency" is where this becomes sensitive or shall we say sympathetic. This "wide band" RF generator (lift pump armature) spinning at a given RPM is emitting a respectable amount of RF hash, my concern with small amounts of inductance even as low as 3 micro Henrys lumped at the end of a wire will enhance that lead at a particular frequency. If an owner operator has a 27 MHz transceiver or perhaps commercial two-way radio equipment on-board this unplanned resonance could become a large factor in receiver performance. I might include the unknown peculiar response of a factory sensor being permeated by a rouge RF source and passed onto the PCM or ECM for added undesired response.

 

The engineering staff at Dodge and of course Carter Industries had some knowledge to select certain add-on elements to produce these vehicles, hopefully without error. Recalls globally, are expensive. I'm only observing the common practice of wire harness layout and avoid common errors. Keeping wire lengths short and concise fall into that practice...a simple coil to alleviate excessive length is avoidable. The "hash" being generated by a DC motor at 13 volts sinking 6 Amps is a respectable amount of energy to deal with and coupling that to a conductor that becomes sympathetically enhanced, only by chance, with a "coil of wire" can introduce unwanted results else where within a system.

 

@trreed   you are a deep thinker  and I admire your observations.     

 

 

[Royal Squire]

Can the carter “bypass circuit board” be adapted to aftermarket pumps?

[Marcus2000monster]

3 hours ago, trreed said:

This is getting pretty complicated for a coil that's only three turns and about 5" in diameter... and also mounted to the FASS bracket.  Only things the induction would have affect on (and it would be very minimal) would be the wire harness for the tail lights/trailer wiring (separated from the FASS harness by the frame rail), and maybe the sending unit (separated by a plastic tank and fuel).  Using the formula L = (n^2*µ*A)/l where n = # of coil turns (3), µ = permeability (1.2566E-6 for air and water, 1.26E-4 for carbon steel), A = area of coil in meters (0.01266 m^2) and l = length of the coil in meters (~1.5" = 0.0381 m), we get a value of 3.621E-06 H or 3.621 µH of inductance into the air.  If we looked at the inductance through the frame rail, it is 3.63E-04 H, or 363 µH.

Sure, shortening the harness looks nicer.  But it is not mandatory, and inductance is minimal. 

I’m with you... got he pump installed and truck seems to be running good. 19 psi at idle I haven’t drove it yet sonidk WhT wot is yet... only thing I’m not happy with is the noise that it makes... it’s just part of it though! So far I’m happy with it! Thanks @trreed! 

 

2 hours ago, Royal Squire said:

Can the carter “bypass circuit board” be adapted to aftermarket pumps?

That would be awesome if so...

 

2 hours ago, W-T said:

Very good, and very true however; the inductance aspect of a coil of wire ( XL= 2* pi * f * L)

in regard to "frequency" is where this becomes sensitive or shall we say sympathetic. This "wide band" RF generator (lift pump armature) spinning at a given RPM is emitting a respectable amount of RF hash, my concern with small amounts of inductance even as low as 3 micro Henrys lumped at the end of a wire will enhance that lead at a particular frequency. If an owner operator has a 27 MHz transceiver or perhaps commercial two-way radio equipment on-board this unplanned resonance could become a large factor in receiver performance. I might include the unknown peculiar response of a factory sensor being permeated by a rouge RF source and passed onto the PCM or ECM for added undesired response.

 

The engineering staff at Dodge and of course Carter Industries had some knowledge to select certain add-on elements to produce these vehicles, hopefully without error. Recalls globally, are expensive. I'm only observing the common practice of wire harness layout and avoid common errors. Keeping wire lengths short and concise fall into that practice...a simple coil to alleviate excessive length is avoidable. The "hash" being generated by a DC motor at 13 volts sinking 6 Amps is a respectable amount of energy to deal with and coupling that to a conductor that becomes sympathetically enhanced, only by chance, with a "coil of wire" can introduce unwanted results else where within a system.

 

@trreed   you are a deep thinker  and I admire your observations.     

 

 

You seems to be a deep thinker as well! Lol. Thank you for the input... treed is correct though in saying that the coil is rather small.... 

[W-T]

2 hours ago, Royal Squire said:

Can the carter “bypass circuit board” be adapted to aftermarket pumps?

 

Yes...there is a method that I incorporated into the motor end-cap that makes a remarkable difference.

 

However; I'm going to start a new thread to encompass this material.

 

27 minutes ago, Marcus2000monster said:

I’m with you... got he pump installed and truck seems to be running good. 19 psi at idle I haven’t drove it yet sonidk WhT wot is yet... only thing I’m not happy with is the noise that it makes... it’s just part of it though! So far I’m happy with it! Thanks @trreed! 

 

That would be awesome if so...

 

You seems to be a deep thinker as well! Lol. Thank you for the input... treed is correct though in saying that the coil is rather small.... 

 

The new thread will address this issue:

 

@Marcus2000monster said:

 only thing I’m not happy with is the noise that it makes... it’s just part of it though! So far I’m happy with it! Thanks @trreed! 

 

The subject matter will be comprehensive and there is NO short cuts...a "coil" of wire is eliminated for additional noise abatement. 

 

With respect gentlemen...I don't halfarss anything, for the sake of technical excellence.

 

We are all Cummins enthusiasts and I share this for the benefit of our fraternity.

 

@Marcus2000monster...btw...I was born and raised in Butte, Montana...so "you" will not be excused easily.   Pay attention or I'll come up there 

 

 

[Marcus2000monster]

3 minutes ago, W-T said:

 

Yes...there is a method that I incorporated into the motor end-cap that makes a remarkable difference.

 

However; I'm going to start a new thread to encompass this material.

 

 

The new thread will address this issue:

 

@Marcus2000monster said:

 only thing I’m not happy with is the noise that it makes... it’s just part of it though! So far I’m happy with it! Thanks @trreed! 

 

The subject matter will be comprehensive and there is NO short cuts...a "coil" of wire is eliminated for additional noise abatement. 

 

With respect gentlemen...I don't halfarss anything, for the sake of technical excellence.

 

We are all Cummins enthusiasts and I share this for the benefit of our fraternity.

 

@Marcus2000monster...btw...I was born and raised in Butte, Montana...so "you" will not be excused easily.   Pay attention or I'll come up there 

 

 

lol I’m glad to see that Someone on here is local! I would love it if you would write an article or thread on the subject!! We respect your knowledge as well! 

[dripley]

I appreciate all of this stuff but after @trreedand @W-Ts dissertation above I think me and the micro Henry's are going to have to sit in the corner for a little while.

[trreed]

@W-T - I certainly respect those who take the time to go above and beyond with their installs.  I strive to be like that eventually as well, but unfortunately my redneck farmer side gets in the way sometimes.  On the subject of the physical coil of wire, it seems over kill to me to be worried about inductance for 16 gauge wire carrying 13V DC, as I have run that exact harness and never had issues.  Just two different views. 

 

Side note, I was watching a multi-million dollar dryer being installed in a new plant the other week.  The control panel for the feeder has a cable of X feet long (length slips my mind), and a question came up between the engineer from Buhler and the installation supervisor about what to do with excess cable.  The engineer recommended to not cut excess wire out and leave the original length of cable to avoid messing with anything in the control panel due to slightly less voltage drop across the shorter wire.  He even went as far as to recommend that any excess cable be coiled up and placed in the control panel itself.  This particular feeder runs on a 480V, 3Ph system, and after our discussion above, now the advice seems strange.

 

I am looking forward to your write up on the bypass circuit for the pump motors.  That is an aspect I've never considered before, nor did I know anything about the internals of a Carter pump.

 

@Marcus2000monster, what kind of noise is it making?  Just loud when running? Or is it a pulsating sound?

Edited March 1, 2018 by trreed

[Marcus2000monster]

3 minutes ago, trreed said:

 

@Marcus2000monster, what kind of noise is it making?  Just loud when running? Or is it a pulsating sound

Just a hummin sound. I think it’s perfectly normal... I’m just not used too it haha! @W-T I really like the idea of a Carter pump and the waynhey are built. I wish we could somehow get them to build a 150gph pump that will last. Filtration systems are not hard to build yourself. Only down side is no air seperatiom.... just thinking aloud here.

 

 

[trreed]

Sound sounds normal.  You'll get used to it.  When I hit the key, I liked that the pump  was loud enough to hear in the cab when it cycled so I knew everything was still working.

Edited March 1, 2018 by trreed

[Marcus2000monster]

1 minute ago, trreed said:

Sound sounds normal.  You'll get used to it.  When I hit the key, I liked being able to hear the pump cycle for 2 seconds in the cab so I knew everything was still working.

Yep I’m growing to take her for a spin in about 20 mins. I’ll post back with results as far as fuel pressure etc. Currently holding 19 Psi at idle. Will it go up at all once I run it a bit?

[trreed]

It shouldn't rise if it's already primed and there's no air bubble anywhere.

Edited March 1, 2018 by trreed

[dripley]

It should drop, how much is the question. I hear my pump fine at key on but there is no way I could hear over the Cummins. I have never heard mine over the engine since the install and it is an AD so I don't know the difference between the 2.