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dave_connor

No power on start up - couple minutes go by and its fine. 2001 3500

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dave_connor    0
dave_connor

Very annoying if I'm parked on a hill, the truck won't move at all. Tried all kinds of reset moves I've found online, and changed the fuel filter. It's been hot here lately and I've noticed my glow plug light is briefer than typical - I can't get the rpm's above 21-2400 until several minutes go by, then a big puff of smoke and I have power. Anybody have any ideas?

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LiveOak    71
LiveOak

Any codes? Fuel pressure reading? Possibility of bad or contaminated fuel in the tank?

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dave_connor    0
dave_connor

Any codes? Fuel pressure reading? Possibility of bad or contaminated fuel in the tank?

Thanks for responding! I do have codes 0122,0500,1757,1762, and 1693 on PCM and 0216 and 1693 on ECM. Don't know fuel pressure, how would I check it? On bad fuel - considered that and ran rough and almost dry prior to refills at 4 different stations with no change. Saw a thread about speed sensor issue and my condition was described pretty well in that (15mph cutout - on level ground) even though it actually goes away in my case. I got up under the truck this am and looked at - cleaned up blowby and unplugged, replugged all three connections to the trans (that I saw anyway). If I read correctly the speed sendor is the three wire connection side mount sensor just above the pan drivers side, but there was also an 8 wire top mount just behind it, any clue which is it - guess I'll know when I buy a speed sensor today... Any help on codes would be appreciated, and thanks again for your response!

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LiveOak    71
LiveOak

Thanks for responding! I do have codes 0122,0500,1757,1762, and 1693 on PCM and 0216 and 1693 on ECM. Don't know fuel pressure, how would I check it? On bad fuel - considered that and ran rough and almost dry prior to refills at 4 different stations with no change. Saw a thread about speed sensor issue and my condition was described pretty well in that (15mph cutout - on level ground) even though it actually goes away in my case. I got up under the truck this am and looked at - cleaned up blowby and unplugged, replugged all three connections to the trans (that I saw anyway). If I read correctly the speed sendor is the three wire connection side mount sensor just above the pan drivers side, but there was also an 8 wire top mount just behind it, any clue which is it - guess I'll know when I buy a speed sensor today... Any help on codes would be appreciated, and thanks again for your response!

0122= Accelerator Position Sensor (APPS) Signal Voltage Too Low 0500= No Vehicle Speed Sensor Signal (common codes due to rear tire slipage) 1757= Governor Pressure Above 3 PSI When Request Is 0 PSI (injector pump issue) 1762= Governor Pressure Sensor Offset Improper Voltage (injector pump issue) 1693= DTC Detected In ECM Or PCM (companion code to alert that other codes are set) 0216= Fuel Injection Pump Timing Failure (one a number of injector pump death codes) This link will provide a bit more detail of the codes: http://mopar.mopar1973man.com/cummins/2ndgen24v/obd2-error-codes/common-errors.htm In my opinion, your VP-44 fuel injection pump is TOAST. It may not be communicating properly with the ECM and APPS thus latching the APPS codes or you may have an APPS problem in addition to the injector pump. Did you have dead pedal issue long before the engine power problem. I would strongly recommend you purchase a new injector pump AND an Air Dog or FASS along with a 1/2" Big Line Kit. A full set of in cab gauges are a MUST to monitor fuel pressure, boost, and egt. It sounds like you are still running the OEM Carter fuel lift pump which is a piece of junk and will not provide adequate fuel pressure or volume through the stock OEM fuel lines. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. In the interim, I would recommend you obtain a fuel pressure test gauge and test your fuel system pressure: http://www.vulcanperformance.com/Fuel-Pressure-Tester-with-Schrader-Connection-p/fpt.htm This gauge tests pressure at the schrader valve on the VP-44 IP. You can buy an injector pump and fuel lift pump as a package deal at many retailers, shop around for prices and service. http://www.mwfi.com/VP44.htm http://www.thoroughbreddiesel.com/airdog/fuel-system.htm http://www.vp44pumps.com/VP44-Injection-pump-and-Air-Dog-100-VP44027X-A1SPBD001.htm http://www.vulcanperformance.com/category-s/260.htm It would be VERY wise to install the Big Line Kit while installing the injector pump and new fuel lift pump: http://www.vulcanperformance.com/Draw-Straw-II-1-2-in-draw-tube-and-1-2-in-pushlo-p/vpps9804.htm The fuel lift pumps are expensive but well worth it. The Air Dog or FASS are both good pumps. http://www.fassride.com/ http://www.pureflowairdog.com/ If you are going to leave the engine pretty much stock, you can get by very well with an Airtex e7153 fuel lift pump PROVIDED it is relocated on the frame with a Big Line Relocation Kit. http://www.airtexproducts.com/TSB/TSB-0407-01.pdf http://compare.ebay.com/like/150467880779?ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&rvr_id=119473517972&crlp=1_263602_263632&UA=WVI7&GUID=db2fa7cb1290a02652f215c2ff0c4602&itemid=150467880779&ff4=263602_263632 http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raframecatalog.php?catalog=203&partnum=E7153&a=FR203-E7153-56391 I have the Airtex e7153 fuel lift pump installed on the wife's truck and it works fine as long as you leave the engine stock and install a fuel pressure gauge to monitor fuel pressure drop in the event of a plugged up fuel filter. You have a quite a few decisions to make ahead of you. I am sure others will jump in with their suggestions. Personally, I feel the best route is to buy the Air Dog or FASS, Big Line Kit, and install all of these with the new injector pump. THEN take a look at the other codes to observe if they are still latching and causing problems.

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dave_connor    0
dave_connor

Thanks so much for the code assistance! I appreciate your opine on the situation - this isn't acting like IP issue since it clears up - I had an IP electronics issues on my 2000 3500 and every time Dodge did the pump first and then it still had the issue and was always a sensor. Being boneheaded and short on funds in this economy, I am opting to try the speed sensor first - my bet is that if its not working properly it would throw all the other codes too. You'll probably laugh at this but I have been getting it to snap back to life with a hard right turn at the bottom of a nearby hill on my way out of the neighborhood, like after gravity has it moving 30-35mph - and believe it or not a hard left doesn't do it... I've repeatedly found loose connections on this beast and I'm hoping for the best - wanting that 0500 to be the key. I'll let ya'll know what results later today. Thanks again for your time in response. Dave

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LiveOak    71
LiveOak

Thanks so much for the code assistance! I appreciate your opine on the situation - this isn't acting like IP issue since it clears up - I had an IP electronics issues on my 2000 3500 and every time Dodge did the pump first and then it still had the issue and was always a sensor. Being boneheaded and short on funds in this economy, I am opting to try the speed sensor first - my bet is that if its not working properly it would throw all the other codes too. You'll probably laugh at this but I have been getting it to snap back to life with a hard right turn at the bottom of a nearby hill on my way out of the neighborhood, like after gravity has it moving 30-35mph - and believe it or not a hard left doesn't do it... I've repeatedly found loose connections on this beast and I'm hoping for the best - wanting that 0500 to be the key. I'll let ya'll know what results later today. Thanks again for your time in response. Dave

Dave, I have edited in more comments and links. This ABSOLUTELY IS an IP issue since the P0216 code is latched. The timing piston is seized up inside the IP and will no longer allow ANY timing changes. The IP may run indefinitely in this condition, but the condition is PERMANENT and will NOT go away. This is what killed my IP in my 2002. The truck still ran fine but my fuel economy went to crap and it would hestate and stumble on low boost acceleration. With the other IP codes you have that are latched in the ECM, eventually the VP-44 rotor will likely seize up and the engine will die immediately. In a nutshell, your IP is on borrowed time. The IP rarely dies instantly but gradually will display various codes and performance symptoms. http://www.bluechipdiesel.com/vp44diagnostichelp.html Murphy's Law dictates that the IP will fail and kill the engine at the ABSOLUTE WORST possible time. The P0500 sensor code has NOTHING to do with the IP or your engine performance issue. If you drive off road, slip one tire in mud, gravel, etc., this will latch the 0500 code. I get them all the time as I am off road a good bit. Changing the VSSB will do nothing other than to empty your wallet and work you for nothing. In all likihood, that hard right turn is causing the P0500 code. The IP codes are NOT caused by poor electrical connections. Not trying to be the party pooper here, just trying to help you get your truck fixed and get right to the problem and spend as little money as possible. At the VERY least (and this is HIGHLY inadvisable), you can test the lift pump pressure. If the lift pump is dead, replace it with the Airtex e7153 lift pump in the OEM stock location on the side of the engine. Test to verify good pressure at the IP schrader valve after replacing the lift pump. You can install a steering wheel mounted fuel pressure gauge to monitor fuel pressure. ANY time it drops below 10-12 psi, I suggest replacing the fuel filter. I have to replace the fuel filter on the wife's truck about every 3500-4000 miles. I use the Baldwin PF7977. http://www.vulcanperformance.com/Fuel-Pressure-Tester-with-Schrader-Connection-p/scp.htm http://www.vulcanperformance.com/ISSPRO-EV-fuel-pressure-Kit-p/issfp.htm The Big Line kit make tapping into the fuel system MUCH easier. Call Eric at Vulcan and ask him to send you the correct fittings to do this when you order the fuel pressure gauge and mount. This will get you back on the road but I want to emphasize that this is a half assed fix. Eventually the IP will crap out and you will have to address that problem too. If you decide to add ANY engine power modifications, you will have to install the Air Dog or FASS. The engine in all likihood may run for a very long time (read years) or it could crap out tomorrow. It is a crap shoot. Your call on the reliability to save money. I hope this helps get you back on the road again but you have to decide how you want to approach fixing the problem. My experience has taught me to fix it right the FIRST time and it will cost a good bit up front but a lot less overall.

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offroadcummins01    0
offroadcummins01

May or may not be of much help but I had a 97 powerstroke that did the same thing, although it was primarily on colder days, but it seems like once it warmed up everything was ok. I took it to a shop and they said injectors were clogged. Maybe have those checked, I know they put mine on a pressure test and 3 of them were bad. I here you on the ip, those are pricey and it seems like any time someone has a problem the finger always get pointed there. I would defenetly exhaust every other option before I go that route or take it to a shop and have them diagnose. Doesnt sound like IP to me but what do I know. Good luck.

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Mopar1973Man    3,795
Mopar1973Man

0122= Accelerator Position Sensor (APPS) Signal Voltage Too Low 0500= No Vehicle Speed Sensor Signal (common codes due to rear tire slipage) 1757= Governor Pressure Above 3 PSI When Request Is 0 PSI (injector pump issue) 1762= Governor Pressure Sensor Offset Improper Voltage (injector pump issue) 1693= DTC Detected In ECM Or PCM (companion code to alert that other codes are set) 0216= Fuel Injection Pump Timing Failure (one a number of injector pump death codes)

Yeah he's right but I will make a few notes here to correct a few things...

In my opinion, your VP-44 fuel injection pump is TOAST. It may not be communicating properly with the ECM and APPS thus latching the APPS codes or you may have an APPS problem in addition to the injector pump. Did you have dead pedal issue long before the engine power problem.

LiveOak is right aboutthe VP44 being toast... The p0216 is a phyiscal wear code. It when the advancement cam can no longer obtain proper timing when the ECM request it so hence the ECM tag the p0216 code... But as for the P0122 that is cause by a wore spot in the APPS sensor and the voltage level drops below .5 Volts for a split second since the voltage is off the map the ECM goes to a limp mode ignoring the throttle. the P1757 and P1762 are both transmission codes... P1762 - Gov Press Sen Offset Volts Too Lo or High The Governor Pressure Sensor input is greater than a calibration limit or is less than a calibration limit for 3 consecutive park/neutral calibrations. P1757 - GOV Press Not Equal to Target @ 15-20 PSI The requested pressure and the actual pressure are not within a tolerance band for the Governor Control System which is used to regulate governor pressure to control shifts for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gear (Zero Pressure Malfunction)

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LiveOak    71
LiveOak

Thanks for pointing that out. There was not much profile info. and I "assumed" it was the IP. My bad. :hyper:

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dave_connor    0
dave_connor

Yeah he's right but I will make a few notes here to correct a few things... LiveOak is right aboutthe VP44 being toast... The p0216 is a phyiscal wear code. It when the advancement cam can no longer obtain proper timing when the ECM request it so hence the ECM tag the p0216 code... But as for the P0122 that is cause by a wore spot in the APPS sensor and the voltage level drops below .5 Volts for a split second since the voltage is off the map the ECM goes to a limp mode ignoring the throttle. the P1757 and P1762 are both transmission codes... P1762 - Gov Press Sen Offset Volts Too Lo or High The Governor Pressure Sensor input is greater than a calibration limit or is less than a calibration limit for 3 consecutive park/neutral calibrations. P1757 - GOV Press Not Equal to Target @ 15-20 PSI The requested pressure and the actual pressure are not within a tolerance band for the Governor Control System which is used to regulate governor pressure to control shifts for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gear (Zero Pressure Malfunction)

Wow guys - thanks for all the insight - what a great forum this is! Limp mode sounds right - but I've seen references in this forum about the speed sensor causing that. Wouldn't limp mode be a culprit for all the other codes? Is there a trick (besides disconnecting both batteries) to reset the ECM/PCM and see if the codes pop again? I actually have great improvement from having cleaned up the three trans sensors with electrical contact cleaner (there was some old PS fluid blowby from a blown hose a year ago or so) - yesterday about 20 starts and stops all with warm motor and no problems so I didn't bother picking up the speed sensor. But again this morning I briefly lost power to the pedal the first time it went to shift to second cold, but I took foot off fuel pedal and came to a stop, tried again and was off for the day with no more problems... I even spun the tires a few times on wet pavement today, which hadn't happenned for awhile. Mini-trip computer has my mpg at 12.8 both days, and I don't recall getting much better than that... So I'm wondering hard about the IP being toast.....? and the aps sensor...? But wow I sure appreciate all the info about replacement parts and all.

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Mopar1973Man    3,795
Mopar1973Man

Wow guys - thanks for all the insight - what a great forum this is!

Limp mode sounds right - but I've seen references in this forum about the speed sensor causing that. Wouldn't limp mode be a culprit for all the other codes? Is there a trick (besides disconnecting both batteries) to reset the ECM/PCM and see if the codes pop again?

The only thing disconnecting the batteries do is loose the APPS calibration... It will not erase codes or reset the ECM/PCM... You could have a set of error code park the truck pull the batteries for 10 years hook it back up and BAM! Codes and check engine light still there... Code reader and use the erase function... Or fix the problem and wait 40 warm up cycles for the codes to erase themselves...

I actually have great improvement from having cleaned up the three trans sensors with electrical contact cleaner (there was some old PS fluid blowby from a blown hose a year ago or so) - yesterday about 20 starts and stops all with warm motor and no problems so I didn't bother picking up the speed sensor. But again this morning I briefly lost power to the pedal the first time it went to shift to second cold, but I took foot off fuel pedal and came to a stop, tried again and was off for the day with no more problems... I even spun the tires a few times on wet pavement today, which hadn't happenned for awhile. Mini-trip computer has my mpg at 12.8 both days, and I don't recall getting much better than that...

So I'm wondering hard about the IP being toast.....?

Yeap the Vp44 is shot... P0216

and the aps sensor...?

Yeap the APPS sensor is shot... P0122

But wow I sure appreciate all the info about replacement parts and all.

Well that what we are here for to help you the best way we know...:thumbup2:

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dave_connor    0
dave_connor

Well that what we are here for to help you the best way we know...:thumbup2:

Hmmm - I'll stop by autozone and get a reader and try to erase - where does it plug in? LiveOak had reminded me of Murphy's law - and for me it'll break down at the worst possible time of course...... but but but but Mike, why would it act normal most of the time? Note: Never had a check engine light either?!?!?

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Mopar1973Man    3,795
Mopar1973Man

Plugs in right here...

Posted Image

But as for error codes not all of them will trip a check engine light or have the truck mis-behave. Because a lot of the faults will cause the truck to go to limp mode and the ECM fills in the bad information with something else. Sometimes limp mode is a compete dog and other times you'll never know...

Mine just stays plugged in...:cool:

www.scangauge.com

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dave_connor    0
dave_connor

Erased codes warm engine no issues currently happening, only had the trans codes 1757 and 1762 when I got home. On start up got limp mode (cant get above 2100 rpm) once I hit about 20mph (first shift point?), let off fuel pedal, try again and have power but no first shift until almost redline (3200rpm or so). At the first light, bout 8 blocks, I shut her down and did the key trick and also had the 0122 and 0216. Does this smack of just a govenor pressure sensor issue? Is there a detailed thread on "limp mode" you could refer me to? Thanks in advance!

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dave_connor    0
dave_connor

Hey all, thanks again for all the info. I'm still puttering along with the problems, about 2500 miles since this all started. Few minor improvements, mostly based on my trial and error. If I start out cold accelerating hard I get right past the limp mode problem... When I can't accelerate hard, it pays to not hit 21mph intil I can. When I do hit 22mph on soft acceleration it goes into limp mode but I can come to a stop and then accellerate hard. I suspect I'm getting past the bad spot on the APPS sensor, instead of sitting on it. Worst is bumper to bumper traffic though... I also still have issue of the trans not shifting until 3200rpm now and again, particularly on the first shift after truck has been off for awhile but still warm, big puff of smoke when it shifts, but then I generally never hit 3200 rpm either. I still have all the same codes... but seems much less debilitating. I'm saving up for a new govenor pressure control unit and the IP and APPs, but I just poured money in on rear brakes rotors and calipers, which since they were dragging (seized left rear caliper) I hoped it was a contributing factor in all the above. I have gotten above 13.5 average mpg since the calipers were replaced though! Maybe it was since the truck is acting up much less, but there no denying the codes as it's been pointed out repeatedly. Any more thoughts in this thread are much appreciated! Thx, Dave

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