Quadzilla Questions

[Nathan S]

I recently received my new Quadzilla Adrenaline from DAP, and I’ve been doing a lot of reading on this site, watching videos on YouTube, and I downloaded the Excel tune builder and have been playing with that. I’m very excited to learn and to start tuning the truck. I’m coming from a 12 year old edge juice with attitude that stays on level 3 with the low boost fueling on 1 all the time. 
 

I have used the tune builder to build starting point tow and daily driver tunes based on my elevation and injector size. I know it is going to take some time with the truck and the load it will be carrying to get the tow tune dialed in right. My main question is, for the tow tune should I have the the tune in question on the highest setting so I will see the full amount of fuel? I want to have to good setup for towing my 10,000 pound camper up some pretty large grades in western Colorado. I recently upgraded the injectors and turbo, and the truck is performing very well, but I still think there is room for improvement on the egt management, and at only 15 pounds of boost up a 5% grade with about 6000 pounds in tow, I know they turbo is not being pushed too hard. I’m hoping I will be able to set the quad up to where I don’t have to watch the pyrometer like a hawk. 
 

[Me78569]

With your injectors I would be using lvl 3 for your DD tune.  Wiretap is really good for high rpm pulling, but it is less controlled and not something I like when towing.     

 

Tune on lvl 3 so that at WOT you are happy with towing performance then tune your wiretap level for none towing fun.       A few * of timing can drop your EGT's by a few hundred.

[Mopar1973Man]

Hence why most of my daily driver tunes have the wire tap set high like 15 PSI and up. This way your already built on boost before introducing more fuel. Then the middle of my current tune is all 100% fuel which works out really nice for daily driving being the middle of the map is flat and not climbing fuel amounts adding the entire way. So my surge of power is way up above 15 PSI and then the power is strong. 

[Nathan S]

One thing that I am having difficulty understanding is the difference in the can bus fueling and the wire tap fueling as fas as how it is delivered. As far as injection pump operation, how are they different? I guess what I mean is how does commanding a percentage of fuel higher than 100% for a given boost level differ from just extending the injection event? 

Edit:

Im not sure how I missed the thread where it’s all explained, or maybe it was just all information overload at first but I believe I found answers to my questions in the “What is canbus fueling” thread. Thank you guys for your help yet again, and I should have researched a bit more or again before starting another thread. 

Edited February 4, 2021 by Nathan S

[Mopar1973Man]

13 hours ago, Nathan S said:

One thing that I am having difficulty understanding is the difference in the can bus fueling and the wire tap fueling as fas as how it is delivered.

 

CANBus Fuel is the fuel that the ECM plus the value of the Quadzilla. So if you set 100% this is true stock fuel. Everything above 100% is added fuel plus what the ECM is commanding. Anything below 100% is cut below ECM rate. So for defuel curve to keep smoke at bay you would set up like I've got 80% to 100% between 0 to 5 PSI of boost. Then above 15 PSI I climb above 100% for added power where I want it at. 

 

Now wire tap I don't dump in low PSI numbers. I wait till I'm climbing on the CANBus above 100% and then add it in buy then the turbo is spun up and will accept the fuel without much change in smoke. Wire tap shouldn't be used below about 5 PSI not good for launch power. Typically turns out to be a smokey mess for larger injectors. Wire tap is defined by the Wiretap setting and like I said is best when the turbo is already spun up to add the power in power is smooth transition and no real change in smoke. Too low and you get sudden change in power and tires will break loose. When you street racing or even daily driving spinning the tires is not a good sign. You want ot add the power in and keep your traction as well. Hence why I've got a flat stock band  (100%) from 5 PSI to 15 PSI.  The stock power in the middle is most now just "stock fuel" commanded from the ECM, plus my +150 HP injectors and the custom timing. 

 

 

So this 100% band is for daily driving and the power is held at bay till I break over 15 PSI. Good street manners. Now if I turn up from Level 3 to Level 7 now we drop in the wiretap. 

 

Now you see both fuel table the CANBus above with my stock power band through the middle. Then after I reach 15 PSI you see both the CANBus and the WireTap are working together building power at the same rate to 30+ PSI. This is serious power at this point but still smoke free for the most part just the initial start you might see a puff come out but then cleans up instantly. Without the flat in the middle I was having traction issue and tires would spin easy, now it not so quick to burn the tires but to get the most power to the ground without spinning.

 

For economy reason I want to keep the wiretap high in the boost table. For me I'm constantly climbing grades 6% to 7% on the highways either north or south which mean if I set my wiretap too low I'll be riding on the wiretap climbing grades and possibly wasting fuel. My flat ground travel typically I'm like 2 to 3 PSI at 66 MPH and 2k RPM's. I don' want to have my cruise set for 65 MPH and then climb a grade and step into the wiretap to just climb a normal highway grade.

Edited February 4, 2021 by Mopar1973Man

[Nathan S]

I got my Adrenaline installed about a week ago and have playing around with a couple of tunes. I got a tow tune set up that I think will work well and a daily driving tune. Both base maps were built from the excel spreadsheet. So far I am beyond happy with the product and can’t believe how it runs compared to the edge. 

The first question I have concerns the light load timing advance on the tow tune. Do I want to have the light load threshold lower than what the truck cruises with a load at so it’s not constantly advancing the timing then pulling it back out with every small grade change in the road? Is it detrimental to have the timing bump up while just cruising on the flat at low boost with a load? 
 

My next question is about the truck having a small stumble for lack of a better term. It’s more noticeable when the truck is cold, and when taking off from a stop. I usually don’t use 1st gear to start out, so leaving a stop sign in 2nd gear is when the issue is the most noticeable. It sounds as if I may have the timing ramp too steep, because the truck will take off just like it used to with the edge, then about 1800 rpm I can hear the timing change, the truck kind of stumbles, then it clears up. It sounds a lot like injector rattle in a common rail. It only happens when I take off more aggressively than what is really necessary. If I’m gentle with the accelerator pedal it does not happen. It really only does this in 2nd and 3rd gear, past that it’s smooth. 

The last thing I had a concern about is the truck building power very aggressively around 2200 rpm. It builds power smoothly up until that point, at at about 2200 rpm and 15 pounds of boost its really starts to pull hard, and it does this suddenly. I don’t have much time on the turbo that it’s on the truck currently so I’m not sure if this it tune related or it’s a function of the larger turbo. 
The tune below is completely smoke free. I’ve been using just level 3, so just can bus fueling only. I did turn it up to 11 and made one rip and it was absolutely incredible how the truck ran. 
 

Daily Tune:

Power Levels: 11

RPM Limit: 3200

Valet Mode: 30% 

 

Pump Tap Parameters:

Max Stretch: 1600

TPS Max: 100%
TPS Min:20% 

Low Boost Scale:5 psi

Boost Scaling: 35 psi

 

Timing Parameters:

Max Load Offset: 2.0 degrees 

Low PSI Timing Reduct: 1.0 degrees 

Timing Reduct Scaling: 100% 

Light Throttle Timing Advance: 2.0 degrees 

Light Load Limit: 30% 

 

Timing Max: 

1500 RPM: 14.0

2000 RPM: 17.7 

2500 RPM: 21.2 

3000 RPM: 24.0 

Max: 26.0

 

Can Bus Fuel

0 psi: 84

1 psi: 86 

2 psi: 88

3 psi: 90

4 psi: 92

5 psi: 94

6 psi: 96 

7 psi: 99

8 psi: 102 

9 psi: 105 

10 psi: 108 

11 psi: 111

12 psi: 115 

13 psi: 119 

14 psi: 123

15 psi: 128 

16 psi: 132 

18 psi: 136 

20 psi: 140 

22 psi: 145 

24- 30 psi: 150

 

 

 

[Mopar1973Man]

1 minute ago, Nathan S said:

The first question I have concerns the light load timing advance on the tow tune. Do I want to have the light load threshold lower than what the truck cruises with a load at so it’s not constantly advancing the timing then pulling it back out with every small grade change in the road? Is it detrimental to have the timing bump up while just cruising on the flat at low boost with a load? 

 

You want to build to what you plan on for road speed. Typically I build for 55 to 65 MPH. Now measure your flat rolling engine load limit now add maybe +2% to that number so it stays in cruise timing without bumping out with every roll of the hill. Just don't add much more timing than about 19* at 2,000 RPM. Cruise timing is good to have on flat ground but make sure it cancels once the truck starts pulling a grade. Low boost is the best way to run with cruise timing, you don't want high boost and added timing it would start breaking things. 

4 minutes ago, Nathan S said:

My next question is about the truck having a small stumble for lack of a better term. It’s more noticeable when the truck is cold, and when taking off from a stop. I usually don’t use 1st gear to start out, so leaving a stop sign in 2nd gear is when the issue is the most noticeable. It sounds as if I may have the timing ramp too steep, because the truck will take off just like it used to with the edge, then about 1800 rpm I can hear the timing change, the truck kind of stumbles, then it clears up. It sounds a lot like injector rattle in a common rail. It only happens when I take off more aggressively than what is really necessary. If I’m gentle with the accelerator pedal it does not happen. It really only does this in 2nd and 3rd gear, past that it’s smooth. 

 

It could be your MAX timing is a bit too high and then stacking on either the retard (Max Load Timing) 2* which is dropping you to 12* in the 1,500 RPM band. Then once you jump to light load and gain timing your stepping back up to 16* in cruise state for the 1,500 RPM band. Look at both ways because if you step above 30% engine load your timing retards the -2* that you set vs engine load. Then when the engine load drops below 30% now your adding +2* to the MAX Timing value. I will say each and every truck has it own sweet spot for timing some like more retard and other like mine like more advancement. This is based mostly on the cetane (high cetane ignites easier!) of fuel and the pop pressure (higher the pop pressure the later the timing) set on the injectors and where the are at in life. 

 

15 minutes ago, Nathan S said:

The last thing I had a concern about is the truck building power very aggressively around 2200 rpm. It builds power smoothly up until that point, at at about 2200 rpm and 15 pounds of boost its really starts to pull hard, and it does this suddenly. I don’t have much time on the turbo that it’s on the truck currently so I’m not sure if this it tune related or it’s a function of the larger turbo. 
The tune below is completely smoke free. I’ve been using just level 3, so just can bus fueling only. I did turn it up to 11 and made one rip and it was absolutely incredible how the truck ran. 

 

This is one reason I set the span between 5 and 15 PSI at 100% fuel this allows for normal daily driver without having to drop the power level. I know that my wire tap and my fuel map ramp up together at the same time. Compared to you wire tap is starting out at 5 PSI. Fuel map is well above 100% at 8 PSI. Way I'm set up now is seriously crazy power. being the fuel map start climbing fairly hard past 15 PSI and the wire tap is set for 15 PSI and it start ramping up together. Now the tires turn to smoke and the truck is gone. You can do a similar setup for your towing tune and just move the wire tap and everything above 100% later in time.  This way gives a nice wide area of stockish fuel map without adding a ton of EGT heat.

 

 

[Nathan S]

I will try reducing the Max timing by half a degree to 25.5 and bump the low boost scaling up 10 psi and go try it and see how it acts. Thank you for the help. 

[Mopar1973Man]

When your too retarded the engine sounds silent there isn't any rattle per say. When you over advanced the truck will buck then getting more aggressive there could be backfiring. Optimally watch over your timing and the engine load when you hit the sweet spot the engine load will drop considerable. The other is if you have the trans temp set up for engine oil temp as you get to advancing too much you'll see oil temp rise quickly. Engine coolant typically starts to rise too.

[Nathan S]

I haven’t seen above 20 degrees on timing yet. Moving the low boost timing reduct to 0 from 1 degree seemed to help the most. I think a lot of it is going to just be learning the new system. 
 

I did do one pretty good pull, not quite 100% throttle, and at the truck seems to react really well. There is no smoke at all, the peak egt was about 1300 degrees at the top of fourth gear. It is much smoother than the edge programmer was. Do you think the 21.2 degrees of timing at 2500 rpm is too high? The truck didn’t bucks or backfire or anything, but it did sound different than it has in the past. I also don’t have more than 1000 miles on this turbo and injector combination so it could just take some getting used to. 

[Royal Squire]

Sorry to derail your thread but I saw your truck in Craig the other day and it looks even better than in the photo!

[Mopar1973Man]

Your close to what I'm running which is 22° @ 2500 RPM. Basically started at 13° and stepped up +4.5° per band. I've got another tune I need to test some day which I stepped +4.6° per band.

Edited February 20, 2021 by Mopar1973Man

[LorenS]

6 hours ago, Nathan S said:

at at about 2200 rpm and 15 pounds of boost its really starts to pull hard

I notice in the CANBUS table, from 14 to 15 PSI the % jumps 5 points.

[Nathan S]

1 hour ago, Royal Squire said:

Sorry to derail your thread but I saw your truck in Craig the other day and it looks even better than in the photo!

Hey thanks! Good to know there’s another member in the area 

 

 

25 minutes ago, LorenS said:

I notice in the CANBUS table, from 14 to 15 PSI the % jumps 5 points.

I didn’t notice this before. I will adjust that and try it out to see if the surge is as pronounced as before, thanks for catching that. 

Edited February 20, 2021 by Nathan S

[Nathan S]

I think I’ve gotten the tune working better. I have lowered the Max timing offset, lowered timing to 17 degrees at 2000 rpm and lowered the timing reduction scaling to 40% and the stumble in 2nd gear is gone. It was swinging timing from 18 degrees down to 12 then sharply back up to 18 as the load would increase then decrease. After the adjustments today, the lowest timing I saw was 13.5 degrees with the load about 50%. 
 

I did adjust the can bus map as well. The surge around 15 pounds of boost is still there, but not as pronounced as before. There was 0 smoke output from the exhaust so I increased the lower end of the map just to see what effect it would have. My idea for the next change is to lower the fueling by a couple of points at each level from 15 psi and above to see if that will help with the surge. Does this seem like the right thing to try? 
 

I have been messing around with the data logging, and I have a couple of questions concerning how it actually works. Do I need to make a pull in the truck, send the data log, then turn the truck off to keep from getting such a large data log? I have tried a couple of times but there is just so much data that its difficult to decipher. I have read the thread on building trends with excel and have been playing with it. It seems that the data log gets full and stops recording certain parameters by the end of the log. 
 

Edit:

After more research on here and thinking about what I was asking the tuner to do, I think I discovered the actual problem with the tune. I think I had the timing setting at 1500 rpm was too low with the low boost timing reduction too high. The quad was pulling too much timing at high loads and low boost then adding the timing back in when the load decreased. By moving the timing reduction scaling to 40%, the quad was maintaining more timing and the stumble was better. I think this was the wrong way to go about fixing the issue. I have built an identical tune with a higher starting point for the timing map and will try it on the way home from work. I do appreciate all the help on here and I apologize for the huge posts. I have been going through the custom tuning thread again things are making much more sense now that I’ve got a little experience with the quad and seeing how the different parameters effect the truck. 

Edited February 22, 2021 by Nathan S

[Mopar1973Man]

Basically you need a good health drop of timing when you excess your cruise timing and the drop back to load based timing. On my truck running empty I can run 1° Max Load timing offset but if I towing I typically opt for 3° Max Load Timing Offset This keeps the timing ramped up for my empty economy but when towing you need a deeper retard. I played with the setting on my RV travels to Arizona. Bigger the towed loads more you need the 3° drop. This build boost quickly helping the truck climb over hills and such ill the load levels out and reaches back for cruise timing. 

[Nathan S]

That make sense. This morning I tried 16* on the base map at 1500 rpm with 1.5* of Max load offset and 2* of low psi timing reduction. The surge was still there but not as pronounced, I bumped the base timing up to 16.5 and it cured it. I was pulling too much timing before because the base map was set to low. Cutting the scaling down to 40% helped because it reduced the amount of timing pulled at low load. Now all the functions work as they are intended and it drives much better. 
 

I started the can bus table at 85 and increased by 2 through the whole map and the surging at higher boost pressures was gone. The egt is wel within control, not much over 1,000 empty and pushing the truck in 4th gear. With the gooseneck dump trailer hooked up I never got above 1,250 degrees up a pretty large grade in 5th gear at 70 mph. 
 

I think I will play with timing a little more to see how the egt reacts but so far I’m very pleased with the results. Thanks again for all the help, even though it was here and I just needed to reread some things for the information to sink in. 

[Mopar1973Man]

16* in the 1500 band is a bit tall even my truck can launch good with heavy throttle. 

 

More retard in the 1500 the quicker you spool the turbo. Remember scaling also cuts down the amount of retard. So if you total timing scaling is 5° and your set for 40% then your total retard is 2°. But only over 40% of the throttle range and give back to the normal timing.