Squeak/Screech noise in reverse only

[Royal Squire]

Looks to be a lot of difference from one adjuster to the other. Don’t know if this is a good indicator or not. 

[Tractorman]

Thanks @SVALIN.  I was just trying to visibly see that there is more brake lining on the secondary shoe.  It appears that is the case.  

 

5 hours ago, Andyba20 said:

looking at the side I have off now it looks like the shop that did the last shoe change used the same size shoe (primary/primary or secondary/secondary). Aren’t they supposed to be different lengths? Or are they supposed to be different thickness?

 

The brake shoes should be the same size, but the brake lining should cover more area on the secondary shoe.  There can be brake lining thickness differences and material type differences, too.  Usually, the primary shoe would have the thicker lining than and cover less area than the secondary shoe lining.  It will interesting to see what the other side looks like.

 

- John

 

 

Edited July 9, 2022 by Tractorman
a mistake (as usual)

[Andyba20]

I’ll check mine tomorrow and get pictures with measurements. 

[Andyba20]

It looks like the last shop did it incorrectly (if I’m understanding the service manual). I wonder if I’ll notice improved braking once I get this straightened out?
 

Drivers side 

 

passenger side 

[Max Tune]

Ya, that's wrong.....

https://www.onallcylinders.com/2019/11/15/how-to-assemble-drum-brakes-a-step-by-step-guide/

[Tractorman]

You will have improved braking.  If all of the shops performed excellent work, this forum wouldn't exist.

 

Drum brakes have been on the way out for a number of years.  When that happens, usually knowledge goes away with it.

 

Here is a good story.  After a couple of years working as a fleet maintenance mechanic for Copper Mountain Ski Resort in Colorado, I was promoted to shop foreman.  We maintained a fairly large fleet - a dozen snowcats, heavy equipment, about 50 trucks and vans, golf course equipment, transportation equipment, etc. 

 

About a year before I started working there as a  mechanic, the landscaping crew had purchased a 3 axle 10,000 lb GVWR equipment trailer.  Apparently, from the day it was purchased, the electric trailer brakes never worked right.   Over the course of a year the trailer was sent back to the manufacturer several times in an attempt to get the problem resolved.  Well, it never happened.  I saw other mechanics trying to figure it out from time to time, but without success.  So, finally the landscaping crew gave up complaining about it and used it without trailer brakes.  

 

When I became the shop foreman, I asked my boss if I could bring that trailer into the shop and find out what is wrong with it and then fix it.  He gave m the go ahead.  So, I brought it into the shop and had all wheels and drums removed to expose the brake hardware.  I offered every mechanic an opportunity to figure out the problem.  But, I also said that nothing could be disassembled until the problem was resolved.  I told them that I thought whatever is wrong with the braking system is going be simple and fundamental, and left them with  that.

 

Throughout the rest of the day, I had conversations with several mechanics about the problem, but after each discussion we would rule out that possible solution.   The  next morning with a fresh cup of coffee in my hand, I looked at the brakes on both sides of the trailer.  I began to chuckle.  The problem was obvious, but I didn't notice it the day before and I had looked at it several times, myself.  I let all of the mechanics know this information and I gave them two hours to figure it out.  No one did, so I gave a hint. I said, "Remember one time awhile back when a mechanic said that when does a brake job, he leaves one side assembled so that he has a reference in case something goes wrong?  And at the time I made a remark 'what if the referenced side is assembled incorrectly?'"  There was silence for a moment and one mechanic piped up and said, " The axles are on backwards".  He was correct.  All three axles installed incorrectly by the manufacturer.

 

Needless to say, we switched the axles around, put on some new brake hardware, and lo and behold, the trailer brakes worked great!  Made some people happy in the landscaping department.  

 

- John

Edited July 10, 2022 by Tractorman

[Andyba20]

I hope you got a raise after that…

 

I was spoiled the first 5 years I had the truck, I had a local mechanical that specialized in 2nd gens, and owned two of them. He was killed a few years ago in a motorcycle wreck (hit by another bike actually). That’s when I really started leaning into this forum for easier diy stuff, and tried a few other local shops for the more complicated jobs. Well, that always ended in a mess, and I couldn’t believe how everything had to be worked on over and over. So then I switched and started doing the harder jobs myself with the help of the forum, and figured I could trust the basics to the locals guys (oil change, brakes, ps fluid flushes, etc). The easier jobs were screwed up even worse. The pic below was from a job by the same knuckleheads that did my drum brakes. 

Edited July 10, 2022 by Andyba20

[Max Tune]

Some people just don't pay attention.

Others try to set a new record for completing a job.

 

Then there are people like a friend of mine who fall under both catagories...

 

He did exactly like your picture to a mutual friends truck. 30k miles later I get a call to help figure out why one side was wore out and other side was still good.....gee, I wonder.

 

Another time he did brakes on an old guys car. Guy drove 10 miles home and calls my friend and says the pedal seems soft and the brakes don't work so well. He brings car back and my friend starts pulling wheels. Driver side rear drum was never put on. Was still laying on the floor of the garage.

 

 

Friends daughter lives about 60 miles away. Brings her jeep Cherokee to her dad for brakes. Dad does job. Daughter goes home. Daughter calls dad from home and says car feels squirrelly and is making a noise. Dad says bring it back. Can't find noise and calls me. He has car on lift and giving it gas. Rear wheel was wobbling. He never tightened the lug nuts properly. Have no idea why she didn't loose that wheel while driving.....with her 2 year old son in the car!

 

I told my friend it's time you quit working on anything. He still does, and rushes through everything. Just won't learn.

[Tractorman]

@Andyba20, It is very unfortunate to have those repairs done so poorly on your truck.  I am sure this is why so many who seek information from this forum are very leery of dropping off their truck to a repair shop.  

 

If your drums are in good condition (not heat cracked or out of round and are within diameter specs), you could probably just emery cloth them and install new shoes.  

 

Whichever way you go, the last thing to do before installing the brake drum is to use liberal amounts of Brakleen and a shop towel to clean the shoes and drums of any handling contamination.  

 

- John

Edited July 10, 2022 by Tractorman

[Andyba20]

None of the shops ever give me a hard time about redoing the work, the thing is I don’t want them to do anything else. The best gearhead in town is 78 years old, he’s a great man. Problem is, he’s so sweet natured he won’t say no to anyone, his shop is always packed, and when he’s not helping out someone for free he only charges $30 an hour. He’d do anything in the world for me and my family but I know he’s exhausted and I just don’t have the heart to ask him (plus he barely charges me and I don’t like that). Bottom line, if I’m going to keep this truck forever I’m just going to have to accept that I’ll have to do the work myself. 

[Max Tune]

With your respect for others and your attitude of not being afraid to learn, you'll have no trouble learning your truck. Never be afraid to ask for help. The knowledge here is incredible.

[Mopar1973Man]

If one doesn't know something someone else will I'll admit freely I don't know everything.

[wil440]

Gather a pile of cheap tools off of Ebay or yard sales or wherever  ( if you haven't already got what you need)  99% of tools do not have to be expensive Snap On or the like

 

And stay a member of this forum as no matter what you are trying to do someone here will have done it before and the best bit is their advice and assistance comes freely and free.

 

Fixing these trucks or anything for that matter takes time, patience and knowledge, the knowlwedge is on here, as @Max Tune said patience and time to do the job and no rushing is key.

My brother is a good example, he's a great welder/fabricator but put spanners in his hand and something will go wrong every time

Example... he buys a really nice Mitsubishi FTO... full body kit the biz, even I thought it looked sort of ok it was  the smaller one not the stealth one, he takes it to the petrol station to fill up and the dumb ~~~~ puts in £20 of diesel by mistake ( In a rush), gets it towed home, drains it out and while removing spark plugs dropped something down a plug hole on the rear most bank .... V6.... never ever did figure out what he dropped in..... head off on the rear bank of these cars is a horrible job.... sold as a none runner last week after 2 years of it being parked

 

Example. His son has a chinese motorcycle.... seized cos he didn't put engine oil in it so my brother finds a SIMILAR engine.... note not the SAME engine, fits it and it won't run

So he calls me and I had a look and came to the conclusion that the flywheel and timing pickup were different and for one the wiring to his ecu wasn't the same

So I tell him to use his flywheel and timing pickup and wiring, clown broke the flywheel in half trying to remove it, so he finds a SAME engine from a dealer that was removed for a seized clutch, luckily he bought it to me..... clutch fine but the actuating shaft was way tight it the casing so a casing change and good to go which I did

 

I've now struck a deal with him, he does all the welding and does not do anything with spanners

[Mopar1973Man]

Like with drum brakes I always just pull every thing off one at a time and lay it out exactly like it came off in front of the axle. Then one by one replace parts by matching parts up and then putting them back together the way the came off. 

 

Another example is when I do injectors on a 3rd gen you need to pull all the exhaust rockers off. To save time and trouble I lay each rocker out on a rag cover board in the exact order they were in the engine this way you don't have to readjust the lash on assembly. Typically I check them but always within the wide Cummins lash specification.

Edited July 10, 2022 by Mopar1973Man

[Andyba20]

So I took it apart and kept everything together like y’all suggested (and took pictures). Not a fun job so far, but I’m about done. Have an issue though. I took both of the adjuster screws into the garage to clean them up with a brush and realized one of them is reverse threaded. Anybody know which goes where? It’s pouring outside so I can’t trial an error.

[Tractorman]

2 hours ago, Andyba20 said:

I took both of the adjuster screws into the garage to clean them up with a brush and realized one of them is reverse threaded. Anybody know which goes where? It’s pouring outside so I can’t trial an error

 

Sometimes you know more than you think you know, but just don't use your own knowledge.  I know, because I do it often enough myself.

 

Here is a closeup of your own photo of the brake on the left side.  Note that the threads are right handed (I believe that this adjuster is on the wrong side).  I say this because when the lever is pulled upward by brake shoe action via the adjuster cable, the toothed wheel will rotate in a direction that will bring the bottom of the brake shoes closer together.  It should be doing the opposite - pushing the brake shoes farther apart.

 

You can hold the adjuster and lever in front of you and imagine its upward travel engaging a tooth.  The action should increase the length of the adjuster.  With that information you will know which side to install it.

 

If it is in fact true that the adjusters were on the wrong sides (which I believe is true), this enforces my reasoning that just because you put something back together the same way you took it apart does not necessarily mean that the parts are installed correctly.  

 

Maybe others could look at the photo and post their thoughts.

 

-  John

 

 

[Mopar1973Man]

 

Just had that same conversation with him on the phone. Great minds think a like. @Tractorman

[Andyba20]

Thanks for everyone’s help and suggestions on this. The fact that the existing brake job was done wrong made it a lot more confusing to get things put back together correctly, but I got it done and can definitely feel an improvement in the brakes. Not just in pedal feel, but actually stopping power as well. 

[Tractorman]

On 7/10/2022 at 3:58 PM, Andyba20 said:

I took both of the adjuster screws into the garage to clean them up with a brush and realized one of them is reverse threaded. Anybody know which goes where?

 

Sometime problems get figured out just by chance.  If you would have kept track of which side the adjusters came from, then you would not have posted the above statement and you  would have likely re-installed the adjusters on the same side from which you removed them.   This, of course, would have been wrong and brake performance would have deteriorated over time as the lining wore. 

 

So, in this case, it turned out to be a good thing that you didn't keep track of which side the adjuster came from when you brought them into the garage for cleaning.

 

Now you have good performing brakes and you did the work yourself and you probably learned a bit along the way.  Good job.

 

- John

[JAG1]

4 hours ago, Andyba20 said:

Thanks for everyone’s help and suggestions on this. The fact that the existing brake job was done wrong made it a lot more confusing to get things put back together correctly, but I got it done and can definitely feel an improvement in the brakes. Not just in pedal feel, but actually stopping power as well. 

I bought a truck from a dealer that kept telling me how great their mechanic is. After buying the truck the front breaks had trouble. I got in there and found he could not figure how to insert the brake pad shims to the caliper. They were smashed and hit with a hammer to try and get them to stay. I took a moment to figure it out, not difficult and after new pads, one new rotor and new stainless shims they work perfect. Everyday for a month I was going down a steep grade. must be about 15/16% with a house across the street at the end of the stop sign. It's a wonder I did not get go thru that house.