Work?

[hex0rz]

Man, just when I thought things would start turning around for the better... Been on this new job for 8 weeks now and the wife has already found grey hairs! Literally... I turn 24 this Saturday too, mind you.

I took this job because I have prior experience in it thinking it would be a good avenue to take considering my prior situation before it. I was on the verge of being out of a house. Would have been on the street, pretty much.

So I take a leap, move all my belongings to a storage unit and living on an air mattress in the parents house close to the job. Saving as much as possible and sticking it out without any creature comforts. Doing all that I can do to make sure I can keep this job.

I was told by the owner many promising things about my future employment with him. Lo' and behold, they are empty as homer simpsons head.

The job has no doubt been stressful. The moment the owner shows up on the jobsite my anxiety shoots through the roof. The first day on the job he laid out the ground rules. No biggie. Things such as showing up on time ready to work, no slacking, no cell phones or going to the bathroom and spending a good amount of time in there. Take breaks on time and not making them into lunch breaks, etc.

He wants guys who will work, stay on task, be drug free and get something done. All things I would agree with and are fair to ask for out of a person. But from there it gets more complicated. My trade is glazing. For those who dunno what that is, it is installing glass and window systems.

We are working on a 4-story building that has alot of curtain wall. The owner confided in us that he bid the job 200k lower than the 2nd bidder. He said the job was super tight and there is no room for someone that cannot live up to his standards. He said that if saw us without our tool belts on we couldn't stick around, or if we did not go fast enough. There are other comments he has made to us about things he felt we should be doing in order to keep our jobs.

It started out with just 3 of us for the first few weeks of the job. He is also on a time constraint and the building has to be closed in by Dec. 1st or he will be fined everyday thereafter. He mentioned how he was going to get a crew of 6-8 men on the job and do 2 shifts if needed. None of that happened. Up until last week we were a 4 man crew.

The foreman has been in the trade for 30years and the 3 of us have had no more than 6 years cumulative experience. He is pretty much working with some gringos. It has also been 3 years since I have done anything in the trade and on top of that, the system I'm working on I have never done before. To compound things even more, the building is not a typical building. The floors have switchbacks on them and each floor staggers outwards as you go up. There is alot of weird stuff to it and alot of thought needed to understand on how to tie all of it in.

The owner has been there almost everyday barking orders and rushing us. Its made for ALOT of confusion, because the foreman will tell us to do something one way and then the owner tells us to do it another way. Alot of mis-communication going on. There have been a few times where things have gotten reaaalll sketchy and made me wonder how many times I came close to dying. In fact, I had almost been killed by the owner one day. We were up in a boom lift and he swung us right into the curtain wall. I was facing the wall and it hit me right in the chest and bent me backwards against the basket. The owner got it in the back and was squished into the controls.

That should have been my red flag. The time where you know you oughtta just leave now while you can. After that incident, I have been on the controls if he ever gets in the lift with me. He has been pretty wreckless at times. Swinging into the wall more than once. So much to the point that it bent the metal.

I used to work union and he is the first non-union in the trade. We only get paid a straight hourly wage with no benefits. I mean NONE. Not even a paid holiday or anything. I can let that kind of stuff slide considering what kind of desperation I'm in. But, ever since we started this job, we have only had 1 break a day, plus our lunch.

Now, I'm willing to let that slide as well. But if you think about it, 4 guys on the job, 8 weeks worth of work, those 10 minutes breaks add up. He has been banking this time, when in fact he thinks we have been taking them. I think this is something the foreman has been doing and not the owner. But I think the owner knew abotu it as well.

Well, to cut to the chase, laying out the framework for my reason for whining, it has been overwhelming. Its as if the whole dynamics to the workforce have changed since I last held a steady job. I do the best I can and work the best I can. I do not screw off at all, show up to work on time, and sober too. I take my breaks on time and work at a good steady pace. I even drink less water than I should so I do not have to go up and down with the lift to take a ____.

Now, there have been numerous upon numerous occassions where the owner has come by and lectured each and every one of us about working faster and harder and knowing what your doing and this and that. So much to the point that I feel like I'm being micro-managed to DEATH!!

It even came to the point that he had even threatened me and another guys job because he did not think we were working fast enough. Mind you, I'm inexperienced and so was the other.

So today, he really decided he would tip things over the edge. He pulls me to the side and confides in me about how he is going to talk to everyone individually and tell us how we need to work faster and we need to make it like we work at les schwab. I for one, will NEVER literally RUN for anyone. I have had that engrained in my head to never run, even on a jobsite. Its a safety hazard.

So during this conversaion, he tell me that he is tired of telling us that we need to do this or do that, so he said that next time he is just going to tell us, "See ya later."

Well, I for one personally know that if he fires me, I can safey say with a clear conscience that I never screwed him over and that I worked hard for his money. It CERTAINLY gets me fired up though, when I see one of the new guys.

He's only been in the trade for one year, and the owner treats him like he is his son. Hes always on his phone, standing around and talking. He works slow and does nothing productive. But its just an illusion! He never gets yelled at by the owner and it seems like he can do no wrong. We have all noticed this with him. Come to find out, he may very well be chosen to be the foreman for this job coming up.

This is all going downhill faster than a mudslide. I had so many aspirations. I had hoped this was going to be a turning point for things in my life, but it has become a letdown. It really saddens me. I cannot even be the provider I'm suppose to be for my wife. Now, we cannot even afford a place to rent of our own and having kids is out of the question.

I just don't get people anymore... I hope this was not viewed as a poor ol' me story, but I needed to vent and just get it off my chest. I'm tired of this situation and want out of it. Maybe it will happen sooner than later..

But, this really puts me in a bind now. If I lose this job, I lose my income. Its a crazy feeling knowing everything you pretty much own is in a storage unit and all you really have is this air mattress and your clothes in a duffel...

I'm to the point now though, where I'm getting depserate for work. I'm considering North Dakota for work, or military, etc. I guess we will see what happens...

[hd99fxr3]

Hex, I can only say that the pickle you find yourself in, is not uncommon. The Boss does not know what he's doing, or the working conditions would be different. The red flags are all around you that the business is failing, due to miss management. But many are in similar situations. If you need the money, you suck it up and do what it takes to keep the job, period!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not trying to bust your balls here, but as a Manager, there are a couple of things come to mind, when I read things like this.

Remember, if the shoe doesn't fit you don't put it on. I'm going to make generalizations here, so, if it's not you, ignore it.

Your mention of being a EX union worker is a red flag, to me.

Your age is a red flag, to me.

Although, there are young people with drive. I see it seldom, when interviewing new people. Their defenition of getting the job done, falls radically short, of the effort needed to actually get the job done. Being an EX union employee in another life, On two different Continents. I can safely say, if you think your working, based on how you preformed on your union job, your probably way underperforming. It took a stint in the Army, to break those bad habits.

It took me a year to find two people, skilled enough to replace {one (one) [one]} older gentleman. Both struggle to do what he does, after him having a stroke, and losing 20% mobility. It would take three from todays generation, to keep up with him, pre-stroke. He's still here, thank goodness.

I'm not trying to discourage you in any way, or be disrespecfull.

I'm just saying in todays world, your either working or your not. Decide, what it's going to be and do it. I've worked two and three jobs at a time to get where I'm at. Flipping burgers, if that's what it took to take care of my family. IMHO a person with a family is not doing enough to take care of the family, if your back living with Mom and Dad, and not working, 7 days a week on two or three jobs. to save enough to get an apartment, or rent a trailer house. You've got a job be gratefull. Two years ago my job moved 75 miles up the road. I make that drive everyday, because I can't sell my house, even if I wanted to (I don't, but that's a different story).

You make sacrifices, and make the best you can out of a bad situation. If you can't stomach where your at, try working two shifts at Burger King 7 days a week.

My ramble rant is over now. Don't take any of it personally, if it don't fit. It just seems my generation always hears from your generation how it's always somebody elses fault for the predicament they find themselves in. We often walk away shaking our heads from side to side and wondering where we went wrong as a generation, in raising the generation that followed ours?

You just happened to hit a nerve I guess. Again I really mean no dis-respect to you personally. You asked a guestion, and I voluntered a lecture. LOL

If it bothers you do something positive about it, after you have something lined up. Not after you quit, it's too late then.

Good Luck

[flagmanruss]

I'm permantly disabled & haven't worked in a while. (MS sucks). I was a supervisor in a previous life & I've seen bosses micro manage & over-rule their foremen. If a boss deligates the job, he needs to let the foreman do his job & the workers should do their job & answer to the foreman. (Chain of command) Pulling workers off the job to lecture them wastes time & distracts their minds from the work they are doing because they are now expending energy to figure out the owner. You need the work, so keep working. Try to learn the right way to do the work as it's always most effecient to not have to redo! You are not screwing off, so don't fret about that. If you do need a ____ break, do it & get right back in the lift. The owner is not doing himself any favors. Employees who feel threatened, will have their eyes open for their next job instead of building loyality. I don't think you can do anything about it. If you have a good foreman or anyone else who would be a referance in the future... who appreciates your work, try to keep his contact info as a referance... because this job is not forever. As for the new guy who's always on the phone & screwing off... well, there's something fishy going on there. But it's not your call. The owner chooses to ignore it so recognize it as a mine field. A agree with not running on a construction site... I was once hurrying at a jog from one portion ofthe job site to another... stepped on a rock smaller than a golf ball, rolled my ankle & plowed up the ground with my face. The ankle was fractured & I had to crawl out of the way of the machinery. Fortunately, we had job security & benifits. Running on a job site is dangerous. Walk fast. Try to be organized to not have to retrace steps for tools or supplies. Advise: During working hours. Be on time. Work hard. Do a good job. After hours, keep watch of the job market. Expand your network, after hours. I don't see a carreer with this company.

[ISX]

This is all too familiar lol. I guess I am part of the worthless generation (I'm 22) and it's hard to get the point out that I'm not one of them. I know exactly what hd99fxr3 means though as every other person I know from my generation is a piece of crap. HOWEVER, I have seen far worse out of THEIR generation Guys who take bathroom breaks every 5 minutes, guys who work the clock to do as little as possible. I have had countless jobs on construction crews, in factories, in commercial outfits, as contractors in factories and such, and I have always seen the same basic facts and I will lay them all out. 1. People spend way to much time worrying about the person making more than them with less experience and no work either...... WHO CARES! There is something called personal satisfaction.. My last job I was the sole electrician to a new company destined to be a huge outfit. I was in ethanol plants and factories doing big electrical jobs, by myself... There was no person to ask questions to when I got stuck and I don't exactly have 20 years experience beforehand in this. My job before that was an apprentice for a year at an electrical place who really shouldn't call them selves electricians IMHO. So I took the skills I learned from trade school and from that year of basically what NOT to do, and did my thing by myself for a year. I would get a job and go home and study everything I needed to know about it. The wire size I needed, the panels I needed, everything. I had to learn how to do complete panels of PLC's and frequency drives (since all of the jobs were factory jobs). I did this making the SAME money as a peeon laborer who's previous work experience was an oil changer at jiffy lube...... I know that would set 99% of people off, but I could care less. I was basically my own boss. When I screwed up, I kicked my own rear. When he screwed up, the boss chewed him out.. When he had questions, he had people to ask. I loved the fact that I had nobody to turn to because it forced me to search for answers and figure out way more than I wanted to know at the same time, whereas he was just told "yes or no". I would have NO problem running a crew of electricians now, even if I only made say $10/hr. I can live off any income as long as it's income...making no money runs out eventually. 2. People do not care to excel anymore.... The guy I just mentioned would often tell me he knows how to do something, but doesn't tell the boss because he would then want him to do it and that would put a lot of pressure on him..... I wanted to snap his neck every time he told me that. I realize things are hard.. Nobody really wants to dive into anything that they don't think they are "good" at. This is just fear and you gotta overcome it. There are ways to get good at it and if it something that just comes as experience then the boss should realize that you aren't going to be good at it any time soon... If it requires you to study it to learn it and become good at it, then do it. The same guy was told to do that and his response was "you gotta have fun in life too".. meaning he would rather get drunk than end his constant fear of having to do something at work that he doesn't know how to do. If, however, you want a job like that, then work in a factory on the line, moving one part over, all day long.. I am not saying factory work is bad. I did it for a while myself. It is needed to teach people how to be consistent and do work constantly. A lot of contractor jobs (especially electricians) like to work on a 5/10 ratio. As in they work 5 minutes and do nothing for 10 minutes.. I think it is obvious contractor jobs usually make more than factory workers who work their ___ off (most of them anyways, I know there are inspector jobs that seemingly require no effort) and this makes me realize I should be doing the same or more to get the higher pay I receive. 3. Breaks......I refuse to take breaks. Electrician jobs require little effort IMO. How hard is it to land wires.. I have however pulled in 100ft of 500kcmil wires through 2-90's by hand and dug trenches several feet deep with a shovel on 110F days...in which case it is impossible to not work at it for 20 minutes, and take a 1-3 minute drink of water break. But 90% of contractor work does not have this kind of kill yourself work. A break also seems to turn 1 day into 2 days so the day seems even longer. I even occasionally skip lunch entirely or take 2 minutes to eat a sandwich.. You don't need half an hour to make the 8 hour day turn into 8 1/2 hours (since you don't get paid for lunch) when you do work that doesn't require much effort. Now the PITA work I mentioned, yes, I take a full blown lunch. 4. Watching the clock.....I see people looking at the clock every 5 minutes. If it is 10 minutes from break, the will slow down or even start taking a "pre-break" (what I call it). That's just BS. Then there are people who completely put up shop 30 min before it is actually time to go home. At the electrician apprentice job, guys wouldn't leave the shop until 7, and would put up and make it so they would get back to the shop by 3. That means if it took a half hour to get there and get set up, and a half hour to put up and get back to the shop, they would lose an hour of actual "work". I convinced the guy I worked with (we were 2 person crews) that it was BS and we ended up being on the job working before 7 and we wouldn't even stop working till 10 or 20 after 3. Putting up early is cheating the customer out of a "good job". After all, the more you slack off, the long it takes for their stuff to get in service, costing them money. Just because they give you a deadline doesn't mean land the last wire the minute beforehand, get it done as quick as possible. 5. Comparing yourself to everyone else as to how hard you should work.. This ties in with #1 a little. If the person next to you is slower than you, don't work as slow as him, because he might just be waiting for you to make him look slow so that he can speed up. There was a time when I worked in a steel shop racking steel. There was a guy who was maybe 70 years old. Hair as white as snow and more wrinkles than a wadded up piece of tin foil. He was only 5ft 6 or so and really just looked like a scrawny old man. He would come over and pick up half of a 300lb square tube (me on the other end) and practically run to the rack dragging me along and throw his end on the rack and be waiting for me to get my end up.. This really showed me how the old timers worked and was a huge motivator to me. It was then obvious that just when you though you were working hard, you were completely wrong and some old guy could come over and make you look like a girl. I think most of the current generation is never showed up like that so they never realize how slow they are. 6. Safety should be common sense.. I too have had a lot of close calls mainly from everyone else. People telling me to cut things and things just happen to collapse and stuff.. I have even almost walked right off a 100ft drop because I was holding something big and couldn't see and we didn't have a harness on that woud pull on the lanyard if I had got close to the edge. A lot of this is due to stupid foremans but also lack of experience on my part. You think its no big deal until something like that happens. Foremans can tell you of the risks but you never truly understand them until you have a close call. Hopefully you survive the close call... I have seen olddder generation being 10x stupider than younger and vice versa. I kinda got lucky because at the steel place the boss would throw a hammer at you from 20ft away, and yell your name as it was airborne. If you didn't turn around instantly, you better hope he wasn't aiming for your head. 7. One of the worst things I can't stand is gossip. I don't know which generation is worse but geeeez. There is a new company in my city that is huge and there have been rumors that they are running red diesel, that they are evading taxes, that the FBI is investigating them, to the point that they have had to make columns in the newspaper to defend themselves. But then there is the constant stuff about your foreman or boss... He is a piece of crap, he does this wrong, he...... HE HIRED YOU! If you have a problem, take it straight to him. Don't tell everyone in the plant that he declined workmans comp to someone who deserved it, because you probably don't know the whole story, plus, it's almost definitely none of your business. If you don't like how he does things, talk to him or leave. Do not be like all the other people who show your dissatisfaction by doing a crappy job thinking he will call you out and then you can turn it around and call him out and somehow end up on top, that is so low on so many levels. I realize there is a rank thing that scares people. The janitor doesn't want to talk to his supervisor or the CEO of the company, but if it isn't wasting their valuable time then there is no reason you shouldn't be able to formally ask them if they can spare 5 minutes. Maybe the janitor wants to ask the CEO if he it would be wrong to take the stuff off the CEO's desk to clean it....I guess to sum everything up, be happy you have a job, do not live above your pay scale (don't buy a jaguar if you work at mcdonalds), and do not worry about what others are doing. That guy who you say does nothing could be a the son of a boss's friend who the boss was in the army with and lost his life defending everyone... It is none of your business to ask why he does nothing, it is the foreman's responsibility. Just like hd99fxr3, I'm not trying to make this personal, merely trying to show you some facts of life that might help you

[MoparMom]

Beautiful...absolutely beautiful! I just read through the message from Hex and the replies that came forth from George J., Flagman Russ, and ISX. The voices of experience were shouting at you,Hex and they had a lot of support, love and understanding in them. They gathered round your problem, laid it out, disected it and came to the conculsions you've seen. Take their words and make it your Creed! I am very proud of all of you for taking the time to express yourselves to help another member out. But the important thing is that what was written by these gentlemen holds true for all of us no matter what we are trying to accomplish. I love you all for expressing the TRUTH!!!!!

[JAG1]

I have been in construction full time since 1977. My life long pains and aches have stemmed from injuries with bosses or owners that have pushed too hard. Unreasonably so and is usually a result of greed or low bids. A company with a future has priorities of safety first, quality, then speed. A company with a future is able to run with the employees in mind, caring about them usually makes them care about the company in return and creates greater efficiency, greater productivity, lower stress and greater energy for the work. This is a known fact in common business practice and has been proven over and over with statistics.I used to be affected by greed or an occasional low bid (what a nightmare it was) until prayers became a big part of my life. Prayers with the heart are important not only just the words. It turned everything around in my life and my small company. Now a fun entity to own, I often look forward to ea. Monday rolling around again. Try understanding that one:think: but, God works in very mysterious ways :think::think:

[Te300]

Its good to talk about issues at work. I spent my late teens and all my twentys working for guys like that. Plumbing. Production track jobs , commertial , industrial, clean rooms at ibm crazy customs, gas stations, wineries, etc. etc. i did it all. No service work, all new. So by the time i hit thirty my body was a wreck. I got a licence and went out on my own at thirty. I did real good for two or three years and then just couldnt go anymore. I had a little five man crew and we could do it all. Did hundred unit condos while also doing several customs fifteen thousand square feet or more. I would have up to twenty projects at any givin time up on test. I then hired ten to twenty more guys off and on and felt like my energy was all about what they needed and wasnt doing as well as i was with five guys. Anyway i feel like if i would have started out on my own at twenty five i could have nailed it. So what im sayin is jump in go on your own keep it small and retire at thirty five. Do your time learn your trade and hit it hard and hire people and treat them good and you will win cause your the good guy. I can call anyone who has ever worked for me my friend and they like me too. I cant stand a guy who thinks its ok to tell someone to do something they either have never done or wont do themselves. Seriously, jump in. You will win

[hd99fxr3]

ISX, I hear your comment about my Gen. well played. Like I said I was just generalizing, with the warning not to wear it, if it didn't fit. You picked up on that so thanks for the understanding. Sometimes I wonder what my Grandparents, thought of the generation they raised. You are diffenately in the minority at your age. I have four kids and 5 grandkids. Of the four children, the to oldest, are having difficulties accepting the age old adage "live within your means". The one Daughter who is the oldest is making good progress, but is hampered by those she thinks are her friends. The Oldest son, was the picture of reliability while still living at home. Worked hard and was driving a new Camero and a new Motorcycle. Paying for the privledges to do so and saving money. Got out on his own, and although he is a good person, he'll only take meanial jobs and blow every penny on trying to impress people. I quit trying to figure out what happened, long ago and accept each child for who they've become. The two youngest children have worked hard to get where they are at. The youngest joined the Air Force right out of High School 10 yrs ago. Married a girl who was also in the AF. They just bought a new house, have fairly new, paid for cars. Money in savings and seperate retirement accts. They seem to have the American dream down to a science. The other daughter just finished Collage, has a house and newer car.I'm not sure why the two oldest, didn't get it, and the two youngest did. All four had the same set of lifes rules to follow. The same schools, parents etc.etc.etc. With the first two it's always somebody elses fault, and their friends for the most part are the same way. One of life's mysteries. LOL

[ISX]

Some people see things as being hard, out of reach, etc. And others think anything is possible. I wouldn't say my parents were the greatest. I have a brother (26) and sister (19) and the brother works hard but blows all of his money on beer or diesel crap. I am no against him wanting to innovate, he puts diesels in things and does other stuff and my interest in diesel is probably because of him. But he lives in my parent's basement with no bills, has a service truck he drives home, so he has no bills, yet he has no money.. So although he might have the work ethic down, he hasn't got the other half down. He doesn't want a loan because it is a huge undertaking, in other words, he is afraid. He has no problem getting jobs so if I were him I would get a loan/house/car and be done. My parents fit into this because they never really push us. I think they thought he was a lost cause so they didn't even try. But I was the A student so they told me to go to a university. Between seeing my dad come home stressed out every day (engineer) and seeing my brother go to college for just 2 years and already making money, I didn't see any benefit to going to a university. I went 2 years for electrician, worked and it was just like my brother had done. But you reach a $20/hr ceiling and you're pulling wire for the rest of your life, unless you start your own company, so that you can then tell others how to pull the wire. So here I am, at a university, while the kids I graduated with in HS are now graduating from the same university 4 years later and already have good jobs. It's not about the money for me it's just the fact that I want to be more, to innovate, to create... When I read everything saying "it takes more fuel to make more power" I get a little frustrated over the fact that these engines are not 100% efficient and the only way to make more power out of a 30% efficient engine is to just throw more fuel at it.. It just seems a little beside the point. I think it should be "how do we make it more efficient?" Rather than "how do I get more fuel to it?" Because in the end, they will both make more power.. Where was I. My sister on the other hand saw it differently. She is at the same university as me but because she took weighted classes in HS, she is considered a Junior here, even though she is only on her 3rd semester. My parents have paid for all of us to go to college, me and my brother being somewhat cheap being just a 2 year technical school. My sister is costing them a lot but I think they almost got the house paid off. I used my first chance up so now I have to foot the bill for everything for these 4 years. Even saving for a year (when I realized I wanted to go back) I only managed $10k, which will get me through 2 semesters. So every summer I have to make $10k.... It will take some work. If you ignored everything I just said (don't blame you lol) then my input is this: Kids today either get the itch to want to succeed or they don't. Every single thing you do to them, tell them, that they see, has an effect on this drive to excel. I used to think everything was hard, that I would never be able to work for NASA or anything. There would always be classes you walked by in elementary school that were upper level grades and you would see what was on the board and your jaw would drop. But you never realize in the future when you are in the same class, how easy it was and how impossible you thought it was back then. There is NOTHING that someone can't do with proper training. Having an interest to do it helps...probably cuts the training time in half. I realized that and that is exactly why I am back in college.. A lot of my excel sheets need some hard math and I become interested in learning it because of that.

[flagmanruss]

Going to college isn't for everyone... A young man in our family went to college for a couple of uninspired years. Had to come home as the Fla college was hurrican damaged (a few years ago).A family friend took him to work him in HVAC. He liked it. The company sent him to Technical College, he got licensed. Stayed with that firm for a number of years & was well thought of, finding creative solutions when others had given up on jobs. Another family member offered him a partnership in his HVAC business & they are doing very well.A cautionary story... a inlaw of mine went to work for an electrical contractor as an apprentiss. He worked there 2 years. Did complete jobs, wired complete houses. Went to apply for his Electrician's License. The guy he'd been working for had too many apprentice's... HE was listed as a "laborer". His 2 years apprenticship didn't count... there was an investigation but the guy had covered his tracks well. Last I heard, inlaw was working at Home Depot. Another fellow we know was laid off... set himself up as a handiman. He got a catchy name. He took all the little jobs / projects that were too difficult for women & homeowners. Garages, decks, kitchen & bath repairs... He grew, took on other trades people with specific skills. He's had steady work... he works hard... is a good thinker... always hustling.

[hd99fxr3]

ISX, my oldest son is like your brother. Has the work ethic, and the mind to do anything, but if he don't have someone that's able to put their foot down and make him toe the line. He'll work from dusk till dawn, and then spend every penny on flashy clothes. He drives his bosses old car, and lives with his bosses parents in their basement. He had the oppertunity to come back home, to get on his feet twice. The third time I marched him down to the Army Recruiters office. He was half way through a 4 yr stint when 9/11 happened. Was with the 3rd ID when they invaded Iraq. Finished his time and got out. Had a boat load of money saved and blew it on cars that he wouldn't make the payments on. So he's been on his own doing whatever ever since. He comes around some Sundays to visit. Seems happy and content so we act the same way. We don't Judge, nor meddle. He's 33 yrs old, laying in a bed he made. He'll either grow out of it or not. it's his decesion to make.The oldest daughter, has a house and three kids. The husband was no good ( should have run him off, when they were in high school) the boy friend is no better, and her friends are moochers. I don't know how she put's up with it all, but like her brother she's of age and we just mind our business, and have a nice visit when the oppertunities present themselves.

[ISX]

I can't think of everything when I post on here but I am not saying go to college to have a good life..it was just the life I wanted. People who work in factories, work on their own, all of that, I am perfectly fine with and would support them with whatever they needed. People have different goals in life.. If it is obvious that they hate their life and want to change, then I can teach them how to fish and they can decide which fish they like to eat on their own. There just seems to be a big problem these days with needs vs. wants. Do they need a job or do they want a job? Though kids these days seem to add a 3rd option of do I care to have a job when my parents are willing to give me money.. There is a guy at the local supermarket who must be 15 or so and every time I am there, he is there. He bags, he checks out, he stocks, but he is always busy nonetheless. He also wheres khakis, a button up and a tie. Now this might be a requirement but he wears it all, looks professional and he acts professional. He doesn't acted ashamed that he works there or anything like a lot of kids do. They seem to all think they are worth a million dollars with their $2 skills. These subtle people are all over the place and I would hire him in a heartbeat over someone questionable who says they have all the skills needed. An example of this is that we had a couple bigger electrical jobs and the boss would get these contracted electricians to help out. Their resume said they had wired the space station, ran trans continental fiber optic line, been on the titanic, everything. Yet they couldn't bend conduit any closer than I could get if I simply ran it over with a fork truck. Stuff like that is precisely why guys have 30 or 90 day hire on things. Your resume is one thing, how much of it shows to be true from within you is another. But I think we all know a lot of this. So the question is why.. Is it because the teachers who are usually the kids first impression on work ethic uhhhhh don't have any ethics? My HS was a joke in that regards. In history we watched napolean dynamite.. I don't remember anything with elementary. Or is it that our parents gave us everything we wanted without having to work for it? I never had to do chores or anything so it did have an effect on me. Thankfully I grew out of it, the other 2 siblings weren't so lucky. All of this is very debatable and I don't think there is any right or wrong answer.

[Wild and Free]

The safety aspect of that job would have caused me to walk away no matter lifes circumstances, my life is worth more than a paycheck.North Dakota has so many jobs it is pathetic with the oil boom going on in the western end of the state and good paying jobs as well in pretty much any trade you can think of.Colleges are feeling the hit of the oil boom as High school graduates have 60k a year jobs before thy even graduate thus eliminating any need for a secondary education.I could spend an hour replying to all the talk in this thread but I will refrain.:smart:My advice in your shoes would be to come to North Dakota, Finding a place to stay is harder than finding a job with all the activity and people flocking here from around the country.Flagman hit the nail on the head with his comments and I have split views of the conversations of ISX and hd99.Here in the ND we still have strong work ethic within the younger generations although it is quickly changing. The younger generation is seeing the effects of the spendthrift babyboomer generation and are living through a tough period in todays economy so they have quickly picked up the need for conservative lifestyle of the pre 60's generation and why it is so important and needed. They also realize that the chance of having any type of government retirement are becoming a pipe dream so that is adding to the conservative state of mind "This in areas where thy are not already a part of the dependant nanny state".

[JOHNFAK]

^^^^ amen :)Perspective is always hard to make comment from until you walk in that guys shoes. Can't imagine how hard it would be to young and therefore lack the experience to get a stable good paying job in this economy. On the other hand hand my wife has a masters degree and can't find work. That's quite an emotional trip for her both moving forward and retrospectively. Maybe chat to bill offline and head to ND !!! Any work not putting up with that crap would be more self fulfilling ... ( did what I write make any sense - re-reading) Isx is one of the smartest "kids" I have met too btw - nice guy too boot

[hex0rz]

Thanks for all the comments, guys. Alot I can agree with and some not so much. I can't reply to everything said. Definitely did not expect such a response!I hear everyone out and know where everyone is coming from when what is said is what is said. I hope that the impression is not that I'am a young buck who thinks everything is owed to me and that I should not have to work for what I want. I'm willing to work for what I want and know its fair that I should be doing my part and pulling my weight for my things in life.It came to the point that I was told that I should take advantage of state aid and receive welfare or stamps, etc. I refused to receive that aid and become dependent on any form of govt. aid. We had a couple that was about me and the wifes age. A little younger. The girl had a job and the boyfriend did not. She was paying the bills for everything and he was along for the ride. He did not contribute anything and in fact sucked even more life out of the girl. So they decided to apply for state aid. They qualified and he got the aid. They will provide support in 6 month increments. He got stamps for food such as milk, cheese, bread, etc. After, he got a job with his mothers business.We know of a woman who is a single mother of 2 and she did not qualify for this stat aid like they did. Only because she made $8 more on her check at one point in time. That totally floors me to see such a thing. So when it comes down to it, I'm not in the group looking for a handout. I have been raised in a family of "workaholics". My mother owns her own business and I feel I get alot of my work ethic from her. I have always lived with the addage that I cannot quit my job until I have another one lined up.So, with that said, I have been sticking out this nightmare and looking for better opportunities. If I can improve my situation, I will do so. But, I have a wife to think about and I have to respect her thoughts about things. Yes, sometimes that can mean agreeing on something that does not improve our situation financially but brings in a different aspect of security.Living with the parents was not an idea I was very excited about. Its an emberassing feeling of having to live with the parents again, being married and being of my age. At this point, I should have already been well off with life and had that family of my own established. I can tell you that I have always been the one everyone knew as the one that was always smart with his money.But moving 80 miles with limited funds would not allow me to do much. We would have barely been able to afford a place. If we took the risk, we may have been able to pay to move into a place and have 2 months rent paid and the deposits, but we would not of had enough money for groceries and fuel. Which is needed to be able to work.So we decided to take the invitation, live with the parents until we got some money saved up, get on our feet a little better and then make a move. Now, with the constant uncertainty looming over my head, its been difficult to be comfortable to say yes, we will enter a lease agreement for a place.Call it being scared to move on through life, but its a reality that I have to consider. The fact of the matter is, its not that I would not be willing to work 2 or 3 jobs in fast food, scrubbing toilets or wiping rear-ends. Its the reality that around here, the jobs to be able to even work a minimum wage just is not available.My father has a friend who is a consultant for 3 oil locations and as perfect as it got, he stopped by to see if my father was home to chat a little bit. He just came back from one of the places and was heading home. Instead, me and him talked for a half hour on my situation and I tossed around the idea of going to ND. He told me to look into working for haliburton.For the moment, I will be working this job to earn more money to set back. Because if it goes south, I will have a chunk of changed saved up to maybe make it possible to travel to something as extreme as ND for work.On a sidenote, how has the whole housing situation been going for the areas in ND where there is work? Has it gotten any better? I have been hearing of the man-camps and such but I dunno how much of that applies...

[flagmanruss]

Living with family is not ideal but these economic times are beyond belief. I go by strip malls with 1 unit occupied & 6 empty... they were all occupied... employing workers... 4 years ago. I say ok to live with family BUT save your money... make plans to improve your situation. I was bankrupt & out of cash when I moved out of my ex's place. She & that place had not only wiped me out emotionally but sucked every dime I had. It was doubly devistating. I never got money from my parents & I lived in a concrete room in the basement, under the garage for a year. If I was hungry there were meals on the table. A year later, I bought a very used 5th wheel camper & moved into it. By then I'd gotten over the worst of the emotional trauma, settled my bills & my divorce was pending the final decree. And I had a job & had some money coming in. Being wiped out like this, starting over is d*mn discouraging. I was 38. Accidents and injuries can happen, but in your situation would be catastrophic... and you don't have benifits, i might add... so you must always be on the side of caution & protecting yourself. You are young & strong & smart... you will find opportunties to better yourself.

[Wild and Free]

My father has a friend who is a consultant for 3 oil locations and as perfect as it got, he stopped by to see if my father was home to chat a little bit. He just came back from one of the places and was heading home. Instead, me and him talked for a half hour on my situation and I tossed around the idea of going to ND. He told me to look into working for haliburton. For the moment, I will be working this job to earn more money to set back. Because if it goes south, I will have a chunk of changed saved up to maybe make it possible to travel to something as extreme as ND for work. On a sidenote, how has the whole housing situation been going for the areas in ND where there is work? Has it gotten any better? I have been hearing of the man-camps and such but I dunno how much of that applies...

Here is the most complete jobs site for the state, they even have a special oil field related section. http://www.jobsnd.com/ If it is oil field work you want just research the Bakken oil field you will find a ton of info on it. CL is not very popular here in North Dakota we have our own site that is extremely popular but I do not think that there is much for job seekers on it. http://www.bismanonline.com/ rules the roost here in ND as far as online classifieds. I am not sure what you think is extreme about coming to North Dakota there is only one state in between ND and ID Climate wise would be very similar other than the fact it can change drastically within a few hours. I was born and raised here and have been a lifetime resident. I travel the country extensively and find few places I would rather be. We are the land of extremes but you need to expand on that line of thought so I can dispell some rumors or expand on some questions. While the majority of oil field work is trucking related there are many many other areas to get into. It is not just oil field work that is booming, every sector of work is booming, if you want a specific line of work you will probably find it in every sector of construction as well as infrastructure development is booming and along with that brings every other thing along with it, medical, law enforcement, retail, ect ect ect.......... Housing dierctly in the oil field is tough but most oil field companies offer living in "Personel camps" which are very nice places. But if you find a job in outlying areas that just service or supply oil field work it is not bad. Knowing What type of work you would want to be involved with would be a start and narrow it down from there. I will try and help out a much as I can. The agricultural industry is huge, coal industry and power plants are huge ect ect. Pick something you want and try for it, do not narrow it down to just oil related jobs. they all pay really well here. Mechanics of all types and welders are among the highest sought after trades as well. On a side note on the subject of work ethic, one of our venders which is a CAT dealership had a story about a new hire from another state, They interviewed and offered this person a job as a Diesel Tech and asked when he could start stating the sooner the better if he could be there within a week or two, His return statement said it all in regards to work ethic and how dependant people are on government bebefits. He told them he would not start for another 2 months because that is when his unemployment benefits would run out, They responded to not worry about the job offer at that point it was retracted. Do not think that working for another company is the answer either, it has become an entreprenoirs' dream, there have been thousands of new pop up businesses in almost every area as well. If you have any business ideas this is a great place to make them get going easily.

[hex0rz]

The first link you provided seems like a broken link? I'm not sure...Looked on the bismanonline, and they had quit a bit of job listings. My question is I noted some did not pay very high. Like around 10-12 an hour. I was watching media and they were saying $15/hr min to work fast food.I'm not hugely concerned on the pay, but if cost of living is higher there and the job pays just as much as it does here, then whats all the hype for?I definitely know I need to expand my experience in a different field than glazing. Around here it does not take you very far. Which is ironic as I recntly checked a couple job sites and their stats say glazing is 1 of the 5 fastest growing occupations in the US.As far as a business goes, I need money to make money, . Something I'm lackin in at the moment.

[Wild and Free]

I fixed the link in the post above but here it is again. http://www.jobsnd.com/ The average salary for trade or technical skills jobs are around $20+/hr. The wages in the oil field are usually mid 20's to mid 30's per hour depending on what job you are in. The power industry like Coal mines and the coal fired electric generating plant wages are averaging mid to high 30's an hour. The wind tower industry is big here as well and those wages are a lot lower I think around 20 and hour but the construction of them is about the same. I would guess. There is a Tesoro oil refinery in Mandan and the wages are mid to upper 30's an hour there as well and they actually have some jobs listed in the Bismarck tribune right now. I see you have welding listed as something you can do in your profile page, welders are among the highest sought after trade around along with any type of mechanic. I am guessing the jobs you were looking for were general jobs in the Bismarck Mandan area. Mcdonalds in Williston is paying 15+ per hour and they only run the drive through to control the flow they can handle, because they can't find enough help to open the doors, they get flooded with too many people. But that is dead center in the middle of oil country and that is where the cost of living and housing is a nightmare. There are a ton off grants out there to get a business started and even ND offers grants and low to no interest loans to help new emerging businesses get started. You don't need anything but an idea to start a business. You just have to look for the info. Also if you are set on oil patch work just do a search for Bakken oil field jobs and you will get flooded with info. Shoot roadrunner a message he is a member here on the site, he works in the oil patch he may be able to give you more specific info about specific companies that would be better choices for you to get started. His user name is "roadrunner" here on this site. His name is Jon and Here is his profile page http://forum.mopar1973man.com/members/10712-roadrunner I helped him out last winter, a real nice guy. He was talking about starting up his own oil field business. Texas also has a Huge oil shale play about to go viral as well. It is southern to sothwest texas and it is called the Eagle Ford Shale play, it might be something else to look at. Another one is just straight north of you in Canada, There are a ton of gold mining jobs as well as the massive oil sands mining. There are also a lot of pipeline construction companies that go along with all the oil development.

[ISX]

Hmmmmm, would the economy be the same in ND if they didn't have an underpopulation problem? You say mcdonalds can't even find enough people and they pay $15/hr to those they do find.. That's uhhh, incredible. Here we have so many people working there that they only get 4 hours a week in or $100/2 week paychecks.. Lets say everyone just decided to go to ND since the economy was so good, so then you had more people than jobs... You say you have a lot of jobs there but I am wondering if it's more just not enough people rather than not enough jobs. As in, if you had an extra 20,000 people in town, would all the jobs be taken? If you had an extra 100,000 people move in, then what? I see it as a result of underpopulation.. I am not trying to debate though since I obviously haven't been on soil long enough to say anything. But why is it that underpopulated there? I mean the mcdonalds thing realllllly says you have nobody there, at least that's how I take it. I just can't understand why when there are very skilled people losing everything in other states, surely they woulda heard about ND or something. Or is it the lack of advertising that is keeping ND underpopulated and keeping the people there at such high salaries?