Injector Sizes And Turbo Discussion. . .

[Texas CTD]

#1 - I'm not an expert, and don't really have any personnel experience on the subject. #2 - This info is probably not going to be dead on or 100% true, but that's kinda gonna be the point of this thread. I want opinions voiced, and I want to be corrected if I'm wrong. Some of this info is old news to some of you, but I hope it could help some newbs that are wanting to upgrade injectors and/or turbo(s). First I'm going to post roughly how much horsepower a specific size 7 hole injector will add: (I use 7 hole, because it is the most common injector in a 24 valve - 6, 7, and 8 hole can be used on a 24V) 7x.0071 = Stock HO 7x.0075 = Stock SO 7x.0079 = RV275 7x.008 = +60HP/+70HP 7x.009 = +100HP/+125HP 7x.010 = +150HP 7x.011 = +175HP 7x.012 = +200HP 7x.013 = +225HP 7x.014 = +250HP Keep in mind, a specific size doesn't mean it adds a specific horsepower; it just depends on the injector. Here's some links to some very good information on injectors and turbos: 1( http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/98-5-02-performance-parts-discussion/216421-injector-myth.html 2( http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/98-5-02-performance-parts-discussion/216850-all-injector-info-youll-ever-want.html 3( http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/98-5-02-performance-parts-discussion/219043-injectors-turbos.html 4( http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/98-5-02-performance-parts-discussion/585794-turbo-spec-compilation.html As the first link talks about, a 7x.010 injector will work fine with an HX35, as long as there's not a wire tap programmer being used. It will just be very smokey. As the last link states, with a 7x.010 injector, a 62/68/12 turbo would be a nice application. With a wire tap programmer, a 62/+71/14 turbo would be a better application. Like I said at the beginning, I'm definitely not an expert, and I'm still a newb myself, but I wanted to get the ball rolling, even if my information is not detailed, or if it has errors, (which I'm sure it does) that's kinda the point; I want to hear different opinions on different turbo/injector setups, and and what worked best for your truck, whether you daily drive, tow, or sled pull. Y'all just pile any injector/turbo questions and information in this thread. Somebody with some first hand experience chime in, and correct all my mistakes. Thanks to JohnFak for more info:

DDP Formula 1 (F1) Industrail injection Schied Farm boys diesel Coaltrain (not being made at this point as far as i know) Smokem/Southern Diesel extreme Injector Parts Edge Jammers (no longer made) Fireball Pro Monster Mikes Now to list what each Brand produces and the HP rating THEY give them. Info was taken directly from websites when available. DDP 50hp, 75hp, 100hp, 110hp, 125hp, 150hp, 200hp, 250hp "competion" and 300hp "competion" (most are 7 hole nozzles but they do offer a 200hp injectors with 8 holes) Formula 1 (uses a 7 hole nozzle) Mach 1 = 65hp Mach 1.6 = 90hp Mach 2 = 105hp Mach 3 = 130hp Mach 4 = 150hp Mach 5 = 200hp Mach 6 = 220hp Mach 7 = 240hp Mach 8 = ~270hp when used with nitrous, 230hp on fuel Industrial injection Dragon Fly = 100hp (7 hole?) Dragon Flow = 150hp (10 hole) Super Dragon Flow = 200+hp (11 hole) Schied Lightning 1 = 100hp (6 hole?) Lightning 2 = 150hp (6 x .012) Lightning 3 = ~250hp (6 x .016) Lightning 4 = 300hp+ (6 x .018) FBD 50hp, 100hp, 150hp, 200hp, 220hp and 240hp (7 hole standard and custom 6 hole injectors available) Coaltrain 50hp, 100hp, 150hp, 200hp, 240hp and maybe some customs in between ( all 7 hole that i know of) Smokem/Southern Diesel Extreme Smokem 100hp (7x .0085) Smokem 125hp (7x .010 310BAR) Smokem 150hp (7x .010 (.010 lift and stroke) 310BAR) Smokem 200hp (7x .012 310 BAR) Smokem 240hp (7x .012 (.010 lift and stroke) 310BAR) Smokem 250hp+ (7x14 and up custom order, these are comp only injector) Injector parts 200hp, 250hp, 300hp, and 350hp. (made by the same people that made jammer nozzles, 8 holes) Edge Jammers Jammer 1 = 50hp Jammer 2 = 75hp Jammer 3 = 100hp Jammer 4 = 125hp Jammer 5 = 150 hp (all 8 hole) Fireball Pro 50hp, 75hp, 100hp, 150hp, 200hp (? hole, couldnt find much info on them) Monster Mikes 200hp (6 x .013) 250hp+ (7 x .015) The link mike was talking about ..... is this one .... http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/94...breakdown.html

[Mopar1973Man]

I spotted on of Will's post and ask if he would start a thread with information about injectors and turbo sizes. Hopes to gather more information. So thanks Will for for starting the thread...

[Texas CTD]

Thanks Mike, for asking me. I know it's not much information off the get-go, but I hope it gets the ball rolling.

[adamey1000]

this is one i was considering starting. i have read a ton of stuff on injectors but have never satisfied myself on what injectors i should use for my goals. i am shooting for MPG more than power and would not be interested in exceeding approx. 300 HP. this whould be a good one to keep and eye on!

[CSM]

So, how does an injector "add horsepower?" Does it?I've always been under the impression that the increased nozzle size just allowed more fuel to pass through with less of a pressure drop across the injector, but only WHEN the VP sends that extra fuel? Meaning, that with stock injectors at idle, and 200hp injectors at idle, the engine is still putting the same lb/hr of fuel in. Just when the fueling box comes into play, the larger nozzles allow the fuel to be pushed through easier and faster. amirite? or amiwrong?

[War Eagle]

Not really sure how to answer your question without a long disertation but in simplistic terms, in the TD the fuel is the power maker. The more fuel that you can add and burn the more power that is created. Bigger holes and more nozzle holes allow more fuel to be injected and burned.The injection pump is delivering the fuel at high pressure and the injectors are what meters in the fuel for combustion.With larger injectors that are delivering more fuel, then more power is created without having to put your foot into the throttle so much so it is possible with some injectors to see an increase in mpg. But of course if you like the added power and play with it a lot you will likely see a redution in mpg.

[CSM]

Not really sure how to answer your question without a long disertation but in simplistic terms, in the TD the fuel is the power maker. The more fuel that you can add and burn the more power that is created. Bigger holes and more nozzle holes allow more fuel to be injected and burned. The injection pump is delivering the fuel at high pressure and the injectors are what meters in the fuel for combustion. With larger injectors that are delivering more fuel, then more power is created without having to put your foot into the throttle so much so it is possible with some injectors to see an increase in mpg. But of course if you like the added power and play with it a lot you will likely see a redution in mpg.

Please get technical. So, you are saying that for a given throttle position, the larger injectors deliver more fuel? What about at idle? I thought the VP44 metered the fuel volume, at a certain pressure and that the injectors just popped at a set pressure.

[adamey1000]

Please get technical. So, you are saying that for a given throttle position, the larger injectors deliver more fuel? What about at idle? I thought the VP44 metered the fuel volume, at a certain pressure and that the injectors just popped at a set pressure.

That is correct the way that i understand it. however when the injectors pop it injects a greater amount of fuel and therefore more power. The injection pump still supplies the same pressure it just has to provide a greater volume at that pressure. for that reason i have wondered if increased size injectors might tax the vp44 beyond its capabilities?

[JOHNFAK]

That is correct the way that i understand it. however when the injectors pop it injects a greater amount of fuel and therefore more power. The injection pump still supplies the same pressure it just has to provide a greater volume at that pressure. for that reason i have wondered if increased size injectors might tax the vp44 beyond its capabilities?

Guess someone should through in duration/stretch combined with the injectors through a programmer. Never heard of injector issues for vp44 capabilities beyond that once you go over 150HP you want to go to a SAC style nozzle to reduce failure rate. Think the VP44 SO cant supply more fuel than 650-700 HP is the limit. Then have to go to a monster pump or a p-pump.

[CSM]

That is correct the way that i understand it. however when the injectors pop it injects a greater amount of fuel and therefore more power. The injection pump still supplies the same pressure it just has to provide a greater volume at that pressure. for that reason i have wondered if increased size injectors might tax the vp44 beyond its capabilities?

I thought that with bigger injectors the VP could send more fuel, but the fuel volume was still controlled by the VP. Hence the need for a fuel box... but the bigger injectors wouldn't choke the VP. That was how I thought it worked.

[War Eagle]

Please get technical. So, you are saying that for a given throttle position, the larger injectors deliver more fuel? What about at idle? I thought the VP44 metered the fuel volume, at a certain pressure and that the injectors just popped at a set pressure.

In general a pump is a pump. It creates flow and pressure. It doesn't generally meter anything. What meters flow is things like valves, orifices, capillary devices, etc. Now before I have anybody calling me out on this there are lots of different kinds of pumps in the industrial, scientific and medical world and some of those pumps could in fact be looked at as metering flow (i.e. positive displacement pumps, but even these can be equipped with pressure or flow relief devices to control desired output. Injectors have tips that have multiple holes which fuel is injected through. These holes are fixed orifices and an orifice meters the amount of fuel that can pass through an injector tip and into the cylinder. Pressure and temp will affect how much of any given fuel can flow through any given orifice size. Flow will change as the temp and pressure change but the relationship between the fixed orifice size and the amount of flow for any given pressure and temp is well defined by the laws of physics. Now a pump can be fitted with things like pressure relief valves, recirculation valves etc., to control pressure and temp in a pump when the fuel flow is low (like at idle). So a larger injector can flow less fuel at idle because the output of the pump is being controlled by a signal that controls the flow and pressure (through pressure relief, bypass, recirculation etc)but when the throttle is opened then the pump signal will adjust the flow and pressure parameters of the pump and the flow and pressure output of the pump going to the injectors will increase and then when the injector sees the higher pressure the orifices at the tip will meter in the fuel to the cylinder chamber. More pressure means more fuel through the fixed orifice. Bigger injectors can over power the engine.. If you don't have enough air to burn the fuel you are metering in through the larger injectors the more smoke you will make and the engine will not run clean or cool and maybecome very erratic.

[Texas CTD]

I'm just a dummy, and I was going to put it plain and simple - think about 1/2" lines vs stock plumbing on the low pressure fuel system? You can be running the same pump, but 1/2" lines increase the flow. (pressure) Same concept? :shrug:But War Eagle covered it in detail, since I couldn't.

[skymaster]

hello fellows, i just changed the injecores in my 2000 and am courious if the injectors are seating totally down into place?? the injector rocker arm type ?? support is not showing much progress going down after 25 inch pounds tourqe ( (b4 the finished tq at 89 ? I believe) it appears theres approx 3/16 in befor the hold down bracket would b flat against the head , I did not notice this gap when taking the old injectors out , any one know if this is right or wrong pls let me know befor i finish, Thanks Guys

[adamey1000]

What is the approximate "HP" of the RV275 injectors? i hear alot about them but dont know what they are or what the advantage to them would be. i would like to add a set of injectors but i want to use the stock turbo. I am really not interested in tuners as i am not looking for huge power. i would be more interested in the mpgs than anything. what injectors would you guys recomend for that goal? i have heard good things about the rv275s just dont know enough to pull the trigger.

[Texas CTD]

RV275's are +40 HP.Some guys use 7x.010's (150's) and don't even sacrifice fuel mileage.I've heard the best injector for fuel mileage is between 40 HP - ~75 HP.

[ISX]

This is very good info TexasCTD. I know nothing about which injectors make which power other than the OEM ones. Nice job

[adamey1000]

Is there any draw back to stepping up to a 60 or 75 hp over a 40? Would the 40 get better mpg than the bigger injectors?

[Texas CTD]

Is there any draw back to stepping up to a 60 or 75 hp over a 40? Would the 40 get better mpg than the bigger injectors?

Personally, I would step up slightly bigger than RV275's. If I ever upgrade injectors, I'm eyeballing the +50 HP DFI injectors, (quality injector that's dirt cheap) or +65 HP DAP injectors. (also great quality, and great price) I've heard a lot of people say that once you get over 75 HP injectors, you take a cut in MPG, but I think it goes back to how the person drives, because some folks use 7x.010's and gain in MPG. As I learn more, I might want to step up to a 7x.009, but I don't want to be blacking people out. (sure, I know, upgrade the charger, but I'm talking about cheap power, not an all out build)

[Mopar1973Man]

There is a rather good thread over at Comp D web site where a guy went through and cut injector nozzles in half and shown the differences in different nozzles and spray patterns. Personally I heard the same thing 40-75 HP is the best range of MPG. But there is the rare time where people have managed 100 and bigger injectors and still manged good MPG's numbers.But I would say the MPG numbers or based how good the spray pattern is and how fast you can convert fuel to vapor to get it to ignite fast and completely. I just had phone call from gent that done serious changes to his engine and with 150 HP injectors it now so smoky that it actually smoking black at idle. So its possible to get to wild and go the wrong way too. So be careful and do your bench testing before just leaping out for big injectors.

[Wild and Free]

On my 02 I ran 90 hp and 155 hp Bd injectors on it with an II Silver 62 turbo and Edge Hot comp SO pump.The 90 Hp Bd injectors did a solid 2 mpg over stock all around 17-18 mpg overall DD, the 155 hp Bd's did exactly the same mpg as it did cold stock 15-16 mpg overall DD.