Advanced timing with Blue Chip Special X VP44

[Greenlee]

Blue Chip Special X VP44 advanced timing

 

I am not sure what to do. Several months ago I bought a set of Dynomite Diesel 75 hp injectors through Parleys Diesel. Not supposed to smoke on a stock Cummins but when the injectors were installed, the black smoke was worse that any rolling coal on Youtube. I called Parleys Diesel explaining the circumstances and results of the injector install. Parleys had me call Dynomite Diesel. Both vendors were doing all they could to solve the problem. I explained prior that I was using a Blue Chip Special X VP44 with advanced timing built in. Brian at Dynomite Diesel runs the Warranty and Testing Department, excellent individual to deal with. Told me to send the injectors back to make certain there were no issues on their end. Brian retuned the injectors  but he turned them down a notch. They are balanced and in harmony to work properly. I am hesitant to put them back in my truck, well I’m not doing the work, I have an individual doing the install for me. The last thing Brian said to me was if this doesn’t work then I have VP44 issues with the pump I am using.  I paid $2,150.00 for the pump and over the last 2 years I have put 10,000 miles on my truck and VP44. Is there anything else I can do to check my system or is there anything I can add to the truck, a fuel management system or tuner that would improve what I have going on. My thoughts are if I want to use these injectors I will have to get a different VP44 or sell the injectors before I use them again and leave the stock injectors in place. I don’t know how far advanced the timing is but I get little puffs of black smoke out the back now when driving. No luck talking to Chip, the answer I got for using 75hp injectors was “there you go, a set of RV 45hp injectors would be much better”. However, on Chip’s web site they tell you 100hp injectors are fine to use but they will cause a lope in the idle. Any ideas? Could the fuel return at the back of the head cause these issues?

[TFaoro]

To me it sounds like the timing is so advanced in the low RPM range that it's making the turbo harder to spool and smoking more. (Less timing spools the turbo faster, then after the turbo has spooled advanced timing makes more power)

This does not sound like anything wrong with the fuel system, just some advanced timing.

You can probably learn to drive it smoke free in time. I have a smarty, and big injectors.... If I stuff it to the floor off of idle it will black out the road bad enough no one can see through the smoke. That said, I have learned to drive with a light foot until the turbo spools and the fuel can be burned.

[Me78569]

 

 No luck talking to Chip, the answer I got for using 75hp injectors was “there you go, a set of RV 45hp injectors would be much better”. However, on Chip’s web site they tell you 100hp injectors are fine to use but they will cause a lope in the idle. Any ideas? Could the fuel return at the back of the head cause these issues?

Wow that terrible support for their product. 

 

DDP injectors are said to be a little dirty compared to some of the other builders.  I would install the injectors and see how they do.  Adjust your driving style to fit. 

 

Beyond that, check for boost leaks, and then I guess you could either look for cleaner injectors or a different VP

[Mopar1973Man]

Excessive timing pushes the torque curve higher into the RPM span which in turn only makes power on the upper RPM span which creates the smoke issues for the lower RPM span. So lets say stock torque curve maxes out ay 1,900 RPM's. So advancing the timing moves that peak timing curve higher into the RPM span so say 2,200 to 2,300 RPM's. This is good for racing folks but bad for daily drivers. Being the pump is mechanically modified with added timing there is no real way to retard it.

[flagmanruss]

The Blue Chip site clearly states that the Special X VP44 adds the timing in mechanically that tuners do electronically.  The max advance in unchanged & you can't get more advance by stacking electronics on top of the Special X.  It just doesn't seem to me that this should be an advance problem.   

 

Are you running any box or other programer to add fuel? 

[Greenlee]

Wow that terrible support for their product. 

 

DDP injectors are said to be a little dirty compared to some of the other builders.  I would install the injectors and see how they do.  Adjust your driving style to fit. 

 

Beyond that, check for boost leaks, and then I guess you could either look for cleaner injectors or a different VP

I agree and I try to not to act like a jerk on the phone when maybe I should. I can tell that Chip is up in years, and knows his Cummins Diesels. The problem is never being wrong about anything so it turns into a one sided conversation. Chip doesn't waste any time getting to the point, he's a businessman and knows the market and knows Dodges. I called several times when buying the injection pump and Chip was extremely helpful every time I called to ask questions. The Cummins was new to me. On the 75hp injectors: Chip went straight to the injectors made by Dynomite Diesel as being the issue but it contradicts what Blue Chip advertises. I'll copy in BOLD what comes straight from the web page:

 

The Special X is NOT what is commonly called a HOT ROD pump. A HOT ROD pump is modified to put out the most fuel for the most power and the worst fuel mileage. It is the total opposite of a Special X. To make a HOT ROD pump many internal parts have to be modified by aftermarket vendors and therefore do NOT have ALL Bosch OEM parts in them, so they typically are less dependable and therefore do NOT come with a warranty.

What we do to these pumps gives typically 10% more miles per gallon. We measured 22 more horsepower at the rear wheels on a Mustang dynamometer on our 2000 Dodge with everything stock on it. The Special X also lowers exhaust temperatures and enhances throttle response, so it is a win win situation. The only thing that happens occasionally is if a customer has, or later installs really big injectors such as over 100 HP rated, the idle will roll like a gas engine with a big cam. This doesn’t hurt anything but we want you to know this before you buy a Special X. If you are presently or plan on advancing the timing with an electronic plug in device or programmer don’t buy this pump as we are only doing mechanically what those products do electronically. We do it cheaper. It will not give you another additional MPG increase when used with these products. We do know the Special X with its various internal modifications effects emissions, so if you are concerned about that, please don’t buy this pump. That is why it works though!

The Special X pumps do cost $300.00 more because we have to put $300.00 more NEW parts in each one. We feel this is cost effective when considering the cost of fuel these days. Apparently our customers do too, as this pump is our best seller!

 

There are two places that Chip give credit to Mopar1973Man.com for his articles that educated Blue Chip Diesel. I'll list them if anyone is interested where they are mentioned. Thank you me78569 and Mopar1973Man.

[Greenlee]

To me it sounds like the timing is so advanced in the low RPM range that it's making the turbo harder to spool and smoking more. (Less timing spools the turbo faster, then after the turbo has spooled advanced timing makes more power)

This does not sound like anything wrong with the fuel system, just some advanced timing.

You can probably learn to drive it smoke free in time. I have a smarty, and big injectors.... If I stuff it to the floor off of idle it will black out the road bad enough no one can see through the smoke. That said, I have learned to drive with a light foot until the turbo spools and the fuel can be burned.

I understand and I guess I can learn to do the same, I would like to know how much advance is set in the pump by Blue Chip but this is secret information since they are the only ones building this None Hot Rod Pump.

[Greenlee]

Excessive timing pushes the torque curve higher into the RPM span which in turn only makes power on the upper RPM span which creates the smoke issues for the lower RPM span. So lets say stock torque curve maxes out ay 1,900 RPM's. So advancing the timing moves that peak timing curve higher into the RPM span so say 2,200 to 2,300 RPM's. This is good for racing folks but bad for daily drivers. Being the pump is mechanically modified with added timing there is no real way to retard it.

That's right on trying to retard the timing. So it has to be advanced all the time. Would it still advance the timing as the RPMs are increasing. Wouldn't the ECM advance the timing depending on the driving conditions. One thing Chip mentioned is you can never have too much advanced timing. With a lot of this over my head can anyone point me in a direction to learn and research the timing in a pump? This is why i don't ask a lot of questions, I like to be prepared to speak about a topic and also learn about it too.

[Mopar1973Man]

That's where I've got a limitation I cannot measure timing on these pump at all. But I can tell you timing it set by temperature more so. So, the colder the IAT temperature and ECT temperature the more advancement the VP44 will have. This is because colder air takes more time to convert liquid fuel to vapor to ignite. The warmer the IAT the more retarding. Because the air is already warm fuel will convert quickly from liquid to vapor and ignite very quickly so less timing advancement is required. I can tell you that the MPG fooler works from the basis of fooling the ECM to seeing 143*F which retards timing and typically gives a about 2 MPG gain. When timing is good the engine should be a bit quieter and less rattle typically the EGT's fall even more.

[TFaoro]

That's right on trying to retard the timing. So it has to be advanced all the time. Would it still advance the timing as the RPMs are increasing. Wouldn't the ECM advance the timing depending on the driving conditions. One thing Chip mentioned is you can never have too much advanced timing. With a lot of this over my head can anyone point me in a direction to learn and research the timing in a pump? This is why i don't ask a lot of questions, I like to be prepared to speak about a topic and also learn about it too.

Hey don't worry about asking questions you aren't knowledgeable on yet! We are all here to learn from each other, and this forum is different from the others in the way that your questions will be answered and you will not be ridiculed for not knowing everything. 

 

Your pump may be internally advanced, but you are correct by thinking the timing is still advanced as the RPMs and others parameters change. You can't have "too much" timing on a VP because the pump is internally limited by its hard parts on just how advanced the timing can be. The problem is no one has dissected the ECM to see just where the timing is during different conditions. 

[Greenlee]

That's where I've got a limitation I cannot measure timing on these pump at all. But I can tell you timing it set by temperature more so. So, the colder the IAT temperature and ECT temperature the more advancement the VP44 will have. This is because colder air takes more time to convert liquid fuel to vapor to ignite. The warmer the IAT the more retarding. Because the air is already warm fuel will convert quickly from liquid to vapor and ignite very quickly so less timing advancement is required. I can tell you that the MPG fooler works from the basis of fooling the ECM to seeing 143*F which retards timing and typically gives a about 2 MPG gain. When timing is good the engine should be a bit quieter and less rattle typically the EGT's fall even more.

It makes sense what you are saying but I don't think I have much retarded timing the way the pump is described to always have advanced timing even at idle. I am not certain on that just guessing. I want to figure out what to do to control the smoke, I know driving with an egg between my foot and the pedal is a start but what about a fuel management box of some kind? 

[Greenlee]

Hey don't worry about asking questions you aren't knowledgeable on yet! We are all here to learn from each other, and this forum is different from the others in the way that your questions will be answered and you will not be ridiculed for not knowing everything. 

 

Your pump may be internally advanced, but you are correct by thinking the timing is still advanced as the RPMs and others parameters change. You can't have "too much" timing on a VP because the pump is internally limited by its hard parts on just how advanced the timing can be. The problem is no one has dissected the ECM to see just where the timing is during different conditions. 

Now I understand what you are saying about the pump being limited by it's hard parts so it must be limited on total advancement the same way. Right?

[Greenlee]

The Blue Chip site clearly states that the Special X VP44 adds the timing in mechanically that tuners do electronically.  The max advance in unchanged & you can't get more advance by stacking electronics on top of the Special X.  It just doesn't seem to me that this should be an advance problem.   

 

Are you running any box or other programer to add fuel? 

no other devices being used on the truck. I was asking about using a fuel box to control the smoke. Chips is over $1K and it can't be the only one on the market. I agree on is this an advance problem of not. Fourth paragraph down on the VP pumps on Chips web site states that with this pump customers should be aware that injectors 100hp or more will make the idle lope like a gaser does with a big cam BUT WON'T HURT ANYTHING according to Chip?????? Who knows, it certainly caused an issue with me with 75hp injectors.

[Greenlee]

I hope all of this discussion will shed some light on what's going on and maybe some other members might have a similar situation, wait a minute, I've got to be the only one that would go crazy buying a Special X pump when a standard pump would have been so much easier.

[Mopar1973Man]

That's why I suggest getting stock injection pump vs. Any kind hotrod or special X pump because you can tune around it much easier. With hotrod or special X you have to be aware of the limitations of each pump.

[Greenlee]

That's why I suggest getting stock injection pump vs. Any kind hotrod or special X pump because you can tune around it much easier. With hotrod or special X you have to be aware of the limitations of each pump.

All I can do is agree with you on that. I made a decision based on my pocket book. What I mean is financially I thought at the time I would not be able to buy any add-on performance items. God continues to bless my household and I guess I was the only one thinking it is what it is when it's not. I'm stuck with what I bought and I think I would trade trucks before I start buying new VP44s. I bought a 5 speed because I was afraid of the automatics failing on me based on the stories I have read on line. Right now I need an automatic because of shifting issues and how they effect me. Before the Cummins was the Duramax, 2006 SLT. What a powerful piece of machinery, a joy to drive. But I needed to trade it for a car for my wife since she went back to work when I couldn't go anymore. I never intended on owning another Diesel but after driving one for years there is no way to let it go. The 12 valve and 24 valve trucks to me were a lot cheaper to drive and work on than newer brands, again, all of this was based on my pocket book. The Cummins is one bad motor once you begin to understand whats going on. I enjoy driving my 24 valve but as it goes I made some on the spot decisions that came back and bit me in the end. With the help of the Forum members I am confident I will find an answer or solution. Man do I wish I had bought a standard VP44 and not tempted over 22 hp.

[Mopar1973Man]

Like JAG1 and I had a long conversation on the phone last night about this. More or less what BlueChip had done is like taking a old Chevy truck grab the distributor and twisted forward a few extra degrees initial advance. So basically using that same idea the total number of degrees advancement is the same just move forward in time more. Where most performance box do the very same thing dynamic through software for much much less money.

 

Edge EZ - $398.73

 

Edge Comp - $573.18

 

Edge Juice - $1003.48

 

Some more to look at...

 

Smarty  & Smarty Touch

 

Quadzilla

 

Diablo Power Puck

 

Bully Dog

 

Problem is now you stacking timing if you add a module to that Special X pump. So this is one of the limitation I spoke of you can add a performance module to a Special X or Hot Rod pump. But now a stock SO VP44 and a Edge Comp (120 HP) or a Quadzilla (180 HP) would surely produce way more power than mere 22 HP Special X. So the only direct you can go now is injectors for power and still you have no fuel management. 

 

Just thinking about it. You could run 2 devices with that Special X or hotrod. Smarty (fuel only mode - No timing) or TST box (Fuel only box). But still the timing map on a Special X or Hotrod is dictated by ECM and it's information. Where a full module like Edge, Quadzilla has a wider range of timing control.

[flagmanruss]

"What we did to achieve this goal was to mix and match parts from other VP44 pumps to advance the timing mechanically and optimize fueling rates for better mileage. Yes this does modify the emissions, but not to the extent that the engine will smoke and attract attention from the tree huggers. After installation you can hear the timing difference especially at an idle. You will hear more of a crackle to the engine which is an indication of the timing advance..."

"...If you are presently or plan on advancing the timing with an electronic plug in device or programmer don’t buy this pump as we are only doing mechanically what those products do electronically. We do it cheaper..."   

http://www.bluechipdiesel.com/better_fuel.html

 

This gives the impression...  though not stated as fact...  that the total timing advance is the same max capability (limited my the VP44 design).   Whether it is mechanically activated or electronically.  It's unclear what the fueling changes are.  

 

"Can't have too much timing advance" flies in the face of everything I know.  Certainly the initial advance can be set too early.  Not for nothing, but about now, I'd be checking the timing of the VP44 to the engine.   

 

Yes, Mike, I'm old school too.  Back when we set the timing every time we replaced points.  Yes, you could get a Chevy to run like a bear with timing advance...  only to discover it wouldn't start at cranking speeds. 

 

Note Chip has retired & sold the business to his long time employee Doug Rocco. 

Edited May 7, 2015 by flagmanruss

[Mopar1973Man]

Yes, you could get a Chevy to run like a bear with timing advance...  only to discover it wouldn't start at cranking speeds.

 

Exactly. It a matter of modifying the current timing table to fit our driving needs than just advancing the initial timing. So then you get better all around performance. Yes I'm old enough to remember points and condensers. Also as a pup I found out what excessive timing does to a engine. It will break big chunks of piston and piston rings. Just like it can do on our trucks too.  Like back in the day of Mopar's we changed the springs on the fly weights inside the distributor to change the timing curve and left the initial timing alone.

[diesel4life]

There are two places that Chip give credit to Mopar1973Man.com for his articles that educated Blue Chip Diesel. I'll list them if anyone is interested where they are mentioned. Thank you me78569 and Mopar1973Man.

Yes please post them up. I dont see them anywhere.

Also, are you sure your talking to Chip? Chip has been retired for some time now and turned the business over to Doug, although it is possible he's still involved.