Gents and ladies,

This is my first post on any forum ever but I figured mopar mans forum would be the best. I'm really stuck on what's happening with my truck and it's so annoying because I just got it running beautifully not too long ago. I will start off with some back ground of the truck and the problem.

 

Its a 2001 with about 210k miles, 2wd, automatic trans, bhaf air filter, 4 inch straight pipe, and until recently (I took it off thinking maybe it was causing my issues) an old quadzilla adrenaline that replaced my super chips (I say old because it is one of the first boxes made and I got it used, had the big power resistor replaced, then tested at quadzilla and verified). Now the problem started about a week ago when I noticed that my rpms were kind of bouncing around at 1000 when coming to a stop from higher speeds. I would be doing about 50 and then let off the accelerator pedal, apply brakes, and once in maybe 2nd gear the rpms kind of bounced at 1000 and you could hear it in the engine. They would then return to about 750 once below say 10 mph. This happened for 2 days and on the second day I arrived home and placed the truck in park and noticed it was idling at 1000 rpms. I also noticed a very random, intermittent spike in the rpms as it sat there idling and could hear it in the engine. I'm not sure what a miss sounds like but that's my best guess. This is when I removed my adrenaline. The next day the problems persisted and I noticed that the truck was running rougher than usual. I hooked up my scan gauge 2 and saw that my tps was at 1 and was spiking to about 12 at all times. Once above 12 or so it would stop spiking. As a quick fix attempt I turned down my timbo apps until the rpms sounded about normal and then reset/calibrated the apps. The tps is still stuck on 1 and spiking to around 12 randomly.

 

I recently replaced my iat sensor (not with a CUMMINS part) as it was faulty and was causing dead pedal issues so I unplugged that thinking the cheap sensor I bought was causing it. No luck. I then unplugged my map sensor as I've read many times that this cause rough idling. No luck. It has also been cleaned recently and seems to be functioning properly per my scan gauge. Since readjusting my apps the rpms have come down a little but are still high in park and neutral only(goes to normal when in drive). The only other information I could see worthy to include is that when I had the quad on I didn't tap the pump wire so I only had levels 0-2. When driving with it on 2 or 1 I noticed what seemed to be the tc locking and unlocking and it got more noticeable as the levels increased from 0-2(can't really feel it with it on 1). I assumed this was because it is an old box but idk that it could have been creating additional ac noise? 

 

I havent been been able to do any troubleshooting but when I get time this weekend I will be first checking the alternator for excess noise (even though it's fairly new) and then testing the entire apps harness per instructions found on this site. The only other thing I can think to check is the camshaft position sensor. Any thoughts? I have no codes being thrown and no dash lights illuminated. 

 

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated and I really want/need to get this thing fixed. She's the love of my life.

 

forgot to add that I also have a raptor 100 and gauges, though glowshift. Fuel pressure has always been 18 at idle and 16 at wot. It seems to be a little lower now from what I assume is because the truck is idling higher. It sits closer to 17 idling in park.

Edited March 22, 20178 yr by CumminsHokie

33 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

2. @Mopar1973Man whats the load ac limit?

0.01 to 0.03 is normal

0.05 is marginal

0.1 is a fail

 

43 minutes ago, CumminsHokie said:

3.) what's to say my tc won't start locking and unlocking really badly when I pull off the noise isolator?

Because your alternator is producing too much AC noise. Take the alternator off and have it tested.

 

44 minutes ago, CumminsHokie said:

1.) what would cause my apps voltage at idle to randomly increase to .93?

Idle voltage doesn't matter. What matter that the ECM sees the IVS (Idle Validation Switch) grounded for idle. Idle voltage won't matter as long as the IVS switch for idle is selected. Then its strictly up to the ECM to control idle.

4 minutes ago, CumminsHokie said:

I just cleaned all of my grounds while I had the free time.

 

Too many clean the wrong grounds...

 

6 minutes ago, CumminsHokie said:

I just cleaned all of my grounds while I had the free time.

 

Too many clean the wrong grounds...

If you want to test the APPS for that problem just unplug it. ECM will use only idle software.

I cleaned my battery terminals as a part of cleaning all the grounds. Is that enough to satisfy g115 or should I get spray the plugs with contact cleaner?

 

im glad I joined this forum and I really appreciate all of the help! 

@Mopar1973Man you've done a write up on testing all of the apps connections haven't you?

5 minutes ago, CumminsHokie said:

Is that enough to satisfy g115 or should I get spray the plugs with contact cleaner?

I would use some dielectric grease in the plug and cycle them 3 times. That's it. 

 

6 minutes ago, CumminsHokie said:

@Mopar1973Man you've done a write up on testing all of the apps connections haven't you?

This isn't exactly but it should give you so info...

 

I think I was thinking of testing the idle validation switches. I reread that article and now it doesn't seem as applicable.

 

Anyone have any suggestions on a good alternator? Or is it more along the lines of just don't buy a reman?

I'd stay away from alternators from your local parts stores,   when I was having problems with mine before  rebuilding it, I bought one online from one of mopar discount sites. Ran it for few weeks till I rebuilt my old alternator.  Now I have a spare. And I am not sure if you want to up amprige too much as it may create additional problems.

3 hours ago, Dieselfuture said:

I'd stay away from alternators from your local parts stores,   when I was having problems with mine before  rebuilding it, I bought one online from one of mopar discount sites. Ran it for few weeks till I rebuilt my old alternator.  Now I have a spare. And I am not sure if you want to up amprige too much as it may create additional problems.

How's the process of rebuilding an alternator? Need any special tools? Is it good enough to rebuild the one I bought from the local parts store?

42 minutes ago, CumminsHokie said:

How's the process of rebuilding an alternator?

 

Rebuilding isn't too hard. The worst part is finding a rebuild kit that has quality diodes. The only thing that might be a bit tough is pressing the bearing on the shaft. 

rebuilt or new can come with to much AC voltage. Have it tested while in the store. While .1 ac voltage is a fail it may not be when the grids are cycling. Someone correct me if I am wrong on that. I always thought the test should be run at idle with all accessories off. I have read of folks that have added the extra ground on the apps but seems more of a band aid like the noise isolator. 

 

 Was your engine running at 17% or the apps just showing 17%?

1 hour ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

Rebuilding isn't too hard. The worst part is finding a rebuild kit that has quality diodes. The only thing that might be a bit tough is pressing the bearing on the shaft. 

Roger that. I'll have to look into it. 

 

26 minutes ago, dripley said:

rebuilt or new can come with to much AC voltage. Have it tested while in the store. While .1 ac voltage is a fail it may not be when the grids are cycling. Someone correct me if I am wrong on that. I always thought the test should be run at idle with all accessories off. I have read of folks that have added the extra ground on the apps but seems more of a band aid like the noise isolator. 

 

 Was your engine running at 17% or the apps just showing 17%?

Well I'm not sure to be honest. I believe that the engine idling high was due to the apps being at 17% but I can't say for sure that the engine rpm increase was proportional to the 17% or the increased apps voltage of about 0.9xx volts.  

I didn't think it was that hard to rebuildit, like Mike said getting good parts is pat of the battle. I got my parts from local rebuilder. Getting old bearings off was a bit harder then putting new ones on as there's hardly any room to get under bearing to pull it off. I ended up putting old bearings in a vice till outer race cracked and fell off and used a small cutoff tool to cut through inner race, and being careful not to cut into shaft. Also make sure you get new Armature and brushes as they can also create additional ac noise. If you got extra cash just by one online that is new original and move on. I'm not trying to steer you from doing it yourself, just if you're time is worth money you might be ahead just buying one. This guy has some good stuff, and some vids on youtube. Check it out. http://www.fixinrams.com

Thanks @Dieselfuture I'm thinking I'll get a new one online and rebuild my current one so that I'll have an extra for down the road. I don't ever plan on selling my truck so it can't hurt.

7 hours ago, CumminsHokie said:

Thanks @Dieselfuture I'm thinking I'll get a new one online and rebuild my current one so that I'll have an extra for down the road. I don't ever plan on selling my truck so it can't hurt.

No problem, here is the one I got

Never thought about looking at an OE one. i was surprised, they are still as available as they are. Found one for just under $200 delivered.

Sorry I haven't been able to post much of an update, been very busy getting my Jetta tdi ready for daily driving so I can start heavily modding my truck. But first I still have issue to resolve.

 

Since cleaning the grounds, resetting the apps voltage, and doing an apps re learn the truck has been running much better. No "hickups" at idle, the rpms at idle have dropped some to about 850 and, whether its related to the apps sensor or cleaning the grounds, the truck just drives like a whole new truck again. So for that, I thank you guys. With that being said I noticed that my torque app was still showing 12-13% for TPS so I called Timbo. Also I did unplug the apps and was not able to notice any changes in sound or idle but did notice that Torque app now showed 0% for TPS.

 

We talked through the problem and he mentioned that the apps voltage is dependent on a good ground and that the ground determines the voltage. I thought it was interesting since my harness going to the apps connector had the crappy splice job with a wire going to the negative terminal of the battery. Im wondering if the connection has become compromised. I will hopefully be returning the wiring to stock this weekend assuming I can borrow a deutsch tool from work tomorrow.

 

If returning the wire to stock does not work I will have to move on to other things. I recently stumbled across a thread where they talked about rewiring and splicing in wires between the apps and ecm and pcm. Any input on this? is it just to fix TC locking issues or could it potentially help me with my apps issue? I have pasted a link to the document from ats below.

 

https://www.atsdiesel.com/PDF/120505/4th hunt 46 47 RE.pdf

18 hours ago, CumminsHokie said:

resetting the apps voltage,

 

Bad news... No one should ever reset APPS voltage. 99% of the time it's done wrong. APPS voltage should ALWAYS be 0.05 to 0.1 below tag voltage. 

 

18 hours ago, CumminsHokie said:

and doing an apps re learn

 

That's a sign of bad alternator with AC noise problems. If you got to relearn the APPS there is a problem. 6 years I did mine just because I replaced the batteries since then I've not done it again. The majority of the issues are caused by AC noise. 

 

18 hours ago, CumminsHokie said:

I noticed that my torque app was still showing 12-13% for TPS so I called Timbo.

Now knowing it's a Timbo's APPS. There technically no voltage adjustment. Basically, adjust the stop pin till the voltage rises the back off till you hit bottom and loosen an extra 1/2 turn off the set screw. Timbo's does not have a voltage setting. It's an angle setting. All this does is ensure the contact or on the IDLE position of the contact.

 

 

Another thing to be aware of that if the IVS is on the throttling position then it will follow the APPS voltage. If the IVS is in the idle contact then the ECM ignores the APPS voltage and uses internal software to control idle speed. This is where people screw up attempting to adjust idle speeds or adjust to an old voltage of an old sensor. This is all wrong. Timbo's basically just need to be sure the arm return back enough to make contact on the idle contact or Idle Validation Switch (IVS).

 

Just had a passing thought. If you just unplug the APPS sensor and start the truck this will force the IDLE mode of the ECM. If its still idling rough then its NOT an APPS sensor issue but fuel system issue or ECM issue.

Edited April 7, 20178 yr by Mopar1973Man

By "resetting the apps voltage" I meant adjusting the set screw until my voltage was at 0.63 V and then turning it back 1/2 a turn. I only did the apps re learn because I had just had my batteries unplugged and because I had just messed with the apps adjustment screw to change the voltage. I have my old apps sensor (i know it idled fine when I had it in) so I was thinking about just plugging that in (without installing it fully) and starting the truck to see what my torque app reads for tps. 

 

When I did unplug the apps sensor and start the truck I said that I did not hear any change in idle but my torque app finally read 0% for tps. I wouldn't say that it's idling rough anymore but the rpms still seem higher than I remember. In park or neutral, idling, the rpms read about 850. From what I've read this is normal. I need to call timbo again but work has been hectic lately and I haven't had time. I need to make the time.