From 24 valve to 12 valve

[Greenlee]

On 2/4/2016 at 1:41 PM, CSM said:

Is your TV cable hooked up?  That will affect the shift points. As a starting point at wide open throttle the TV should be at maximum travel. 

I'm going to have to look the TV cable up but from what you are describing it sounds like

This is where I dozed off and didn't finish, sorry. I didn't know I had stopped until I went up to check all the conversations.

 

On 2/4/2016 at 5:19 PM, dripley said:

Disconnecting the alternator should stop the tranny from hunting for od and lockup IIRC. I am not a auto man myself. But have seen this suggested to help find a cure. Stray ac voltage will cause the above problem. It would not, I believe have anything to do with the sift points you are describing.

It makes sense what you are saying. The O/D and lockup both work off current???that works a switch or switches. I don't think I have ever learned much about converters with the exception to a stall converter. I should add this to my bucket list before it's too late lol. I always thought shift points changed according to amount of fluid pressure from the pump while accelerating, if so something is not adding up how no matter how it is driven it hits 3rd at 28mph, that's a little low to me. I found the accelerator cable and below it must be the TV cable. I couldn't see full movement, not enough light. I know I'm long winded and take the longest path to explain anything but this does help me understand what it takes to have a reliable automatic. In the same sense you can spend thousands on a manual with clutch, pressure plate and so one including input and output shaft which I'm not positive if both or just one that is changed out.

Maybe this is ignorant to ask but what is the difficulty building a good transmission? People are trained and certified rebuilding companies builds thousands every year, they have all the tools, test stands, and training to put a well built, reliable transmission out for the customers. Is there something going on from the factory that the re-builders have never learned? Engines can be built all day long and when rebuilt continue to give great service. So why do automatics fail all the time even when supposedly built by an expert? 

trying to isolate the alternator in the morning to see the results you told me about. Thanks for the info, I'll give you a report of what happened and how it shifts or doesn't shift with it not connected.

Edited February 15, 2016 by Greenlee
didn't finish before it was posted

[dripley]

if your alternator is going bad a producing alot of AC noise it messes with the electronics that controls your tranny. By taking the alt off line your just seeing if your alt is causing part of you problem. check this out.

 

[Greenlee]

13 hours ago, dripley said:

if your alternator is going bad a producing alot of AC noise it messes with the electronics that controls your tranny. By taking the alt off line your just seeing if your alt is causing part of you problem. check this out.

I appreciate you explaining the voltage issue with the transmission. This is turning into a crash course. Before retiring last night I searched YouTube and found several video's that are about the 47RE. I'll get back to you as soon as I can do this.

Just finished reading the article that you gave me from MoparMan, it is mind blowing how the small things can create such big issues. Can't thank you enough for taking the time to send it to me. One thing Marice did before selling me the truck is put a new alternator on it. I have a Fluke 50 or 55 not sure but I'm going to test it right now. I hope I can see how to get a reading on AC voltage and see 0.10

 

Edited February 5, 2016 by Greenlee
Needed to add one last thing

[CSM]

 I think it is one of those things that you kinda have to learn.  I like my auto, but it wasn't cheap to make it reliable. 

The alternator test should help eliminate that possible issue.  After that it is checking grounds and other non stock wiring for interference. 

If that doesn't fix it... there may be internal issues.  The TV cable won't necessarily make it shuttle in and out of lockup, but when you said it doesn't shift at the right speeds it makes me wonder.  

The TV cable controls line pressure and downshifting/upshifting.  If the trans shifts late the cable can be loose, but if it shifts early it can be too tight.  However I really would have expected the transmission builder to have caught that...  but it doesn't sound like he gave you much useful help.

[Greenlee]

5 minutes ago, CSM said:

 I think it is one of those things that you kinda have to learn.  I like my auto, but it wasn't cheap to make it reliable. 

The alternator test should help eliminate that possible issue.  After that it is checking grounds and other non stock wiring for interference. 

If that doesn't fix it... there may be internal issues.  The TV cable won't necessarily make it shuttle in and out of lockup, but when you said it doesn't shift at the right speeds it makes me wonder.  

The TV cable controls line pressure and downshifting/upshifting.  If the trans shifts late the cable can be loose, but if it shifts early it can be too tight.  However I really would have expected the transmission builder to have caught that...  but it doesn't sound like he gave you much useful help.

Just to show you I'm in left field on this I never put 2 and 2 together on why it's called a TV cable. I thought to my self how in the world can a TV cable help it **** instead of using a cable like the accelerator cable. Man O Man, I need to find the name of the plant I'm on and get a ticket home.

I don't get what to do check for on AC with a multi meter. I found my Fluke and it's a 77 model Fluke77. I need more explanation on checking the 0.01 from the batteries. Also I looked at the 140 amp fuse link for the alternator, it looks like it's held down by two Phillips Head Screws but they are so tight I can't break them loose. My muscles are extremely week from nerve damage but I can't believe they are that tight unless they have lock tight or some thread lock on them. Does the fuse link come out any other way?

I can't seem to find anything using the search field. What happened to all the help aids for the threads, following searching within the post you are going to read? I haven't got a single thing done today trying to find simple explanations or diagrams. Maybe I need to give it a rest until they find a donor brain that matches mine!!!!!!!!!!

When ever the magic moment hits and I get the alternator isolated do I check for AC stray voltage right off the batteries when running? Are there other positive and negative connections that I should be looking at? Of course my batteries are putting out 14.7 or 14.8 volts when running. I don't remember what it was but within .010 difference from left side to right side.

What if I removed the two nuts for the positive cable and ground attached to the backside of the 140 amp alt. fuse link, will that work?

I can see why folks have $4,000.00 or more in a built transmission with the cost of parts and components to beef it up. I thought a new Torque Converter would help until I saw the prices, as much or more that pressure plates, clutches, and the rest of the package. 

[CSM]

1 hour ago, Greenlee said:

Just to show you I'm in left field on this I never put 2 and 2 together on why it's called a TV cable. I thought to my self how in the world can a TV cable help it **** instead of using a cable like the accelerator cable. Man O Man, I need to find the name of the plant I'm on and get a ticket home.

i think it was transmission valve or throttle valve... 

1 hour ago, Greenlee said:

I don't get what to do check for on AC with a multi meter. I found my Fluke and it's a 77 model Fluke77. I need more explanation on checking the 0.01 from the batteries. Also I looked at the 140 amp fuse link for the alternator, it looks like it's held down by two Phillips Head Screws but they are so tight I can't break them loose. My muscles are extremely week from nerve damage but I can't believe they are that tight unless they have lock tight or some thread lock on them. Does the fuse link come out any other way?

It needs to be running, and just check for AC across the positive and negative battery terminals.  Those screws are tight... mine are bolts with phillips heads in them, so I could use a small 1/4 drive socket set to get mine off. 

1 hour ago, Greenlee said:

When ever the magic moment hits and I get the alternator isolated do I check for AC stray voltage right off the batteries when running? Are there other positive and negative connections that I should be looking at? Of course my batteries are putting out 14.7 or 14.8 volts when running. I don't remember what it was but within .010 difference from left side to right side.

What if I removed the two nuts for the positive cable and ground attached to the backside of the 140 amp alt. fuse link, will that work?

You are looking for AC, not DC.  The AC setting should show a lot smaller than 14v.  

[dripley]

You want to check for the ac voltage while every thing is connected alt included and engine running.

You want to disconnect the alt and then drive it and see if the gear hunting goes away.

Both test will pretty much confirm the same thing. The volt meter will tell how bad it is.

[Greenlee]

Quote: CMS

You are looking for AC, not DC.  The AC setting should show a lot smaller than 14v.

I was checking both but did not have the alternator isolated. I will double check the two Phillips Head and see if they are a 1/4" nut. I don't know how I missed it if they are. I was checking AC voltage to see what it showed on the meter when running. Drivers Side was 4.3 to 4.5 and the drivers side battery showed 1.4 to 1.5 AC voltage but I'm sure it doesn't mean anything. It's no wonder the selling price is tripled after it's fixed.

In the morning I'm getting those Phillips Head Screws out and drive it. Measure the AC voltage and go from there. Thanks again CMS and Dripley

[Greenlee]

I was all wrong on the values I submitted on voltage from the batteries while being isolated. The passenger battery showed 13.13 DC volts and the drivers side battery showed 13.14 DC volts. The reading for AC volts was identical on each side with the engine running, 0.001 AC volts. I bought a new set of batteries and had them installed when I bought my 12 valve. No need to change any filters for another 5K miles. The more I have driven the better increase in fuel mileage. Prior to the hick-up with the shifting on my last fill up I averaged 21.7 mpg. With the hick-up it has dropped down to 17.7 mpg. I don't know the shift sequence after reading several articles, one Cummins owner said his went from 1, 2, 3, TC-Lock, OD. Another Cummins owner said the opposite going 1 2 3 OD TC-Lock.

Marice is going to take a ride and let me show him the shift points it's going back and forth in. If you drive slowly and reach 35mph it will begin, especially up any grade. Returns to normal after passing 45mph. If you drive a little faster but not crazy in acceleration it will shift in and out one quick time maybe 8 out of 10 times. I'll update when I can.

[Cowboy]

The correct shift sequence is; 1st - 2nd - 3rd - 4th (OD), TC Lockup.

If you push the "OD/OFF" button on the dash, it will lock you out of 4th but give you lockup in 3rd.  So that becomes; 1st - 2nd - 3rd - TC Lockup.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Cowboy

[Greenlee]

1 hour ago, Cowboy said:

The correct shift sequence is; 1st - 2nd - 3rd - 4th (OD), TC Lockup.

If you push the "OD/OFF" button on the dash, it will lock you out of 4th but give you lockup in 3rd.  So that becomes; 1st - 2nd - 3rd - TC Lockup.

This all a learning curve for me. The number of times I have turned the OD/OFF and never given consideration that it would change the order of shifting. One more question on this please, Does the Converter Lockup always fall at the end of the shifting sequence? I have looked at articles where a manual Lockup toggle switch is installed. Is this a way to Lockup the converter after shifting to 2nd or ahead of 4th? On the 47re can you explain 4th gear? What I mean is it a mechanical gear like 1st 2nd 3rd or electrical same as the Torque Converter. What happens at lockup and how does the switch work at or inside the Converter? Thanks Cowboy

1 hour ago, Cowboy said:

The correct shift sequence is; 1st - 2nd - 3rd - 4th (OD), TC Lockup.

If you push the "OD/OFF" button on the dash, it will lock you out of 4th but give you lockup in 3rd.  So that becomes; 1st - 2nd - 3rd - TC Lockup.

Forgot to ask about the test on the Alternator. Since I don't appear to have any noise leakage then it is something mechanically somewhere in the shift sequence that is failing?

[Cowboy]

Stock yes, the converter always locks after after the last gear in the 47RE/RH.  You can install a manual switch to be able to lock it in 2nd as well, however having the transmission shift while it's locked will result in broken parts in short order.

It is electric over hydraulic.  There's an electric solenoid controlled by the PCM that opens and closes a valve in the 'Valve body' that then sends hydraulic pressure to the 4th gear assembly, witchcraft happens and you go faster.

Someday I'll probably get an auto 12V, one thing I'd like to play with is building a controller for it.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Cowboy

[Me78569]

Cowboy,

 

I have been mulling over making a controller.  I would love to have automatic 2,3,4th lockup with unlocked shifting.  

 

The TC lockup clutch is pushed back from the "flywheel" like surface in the TC by TC fluid flowing through the input shaft, when you remove the that pressure a spring presses the clutch against the back face of the TC and thus you have lockup.

[Greenlee]

3 hours ago, Cowboy said:

6 minutes ago, Cowboy said:

Stock yes, the converter always locks after after the last gear in the 47RE/RH.  You can install a manual switch to be able to lock it in 2nd as well, however having the transmission shift while it's locked will result in broken parts in short order.

It is electric over hydraulic.  There's an electric solenoid controlled by the PCM that opens and closes a valve in the 'Valve body' that then sends hydraulic pressure to the 4th gear assembly, witchcraft happens and you go faster.

Someday I'll probably get an auto 12V, one thing I'd like to play with is building a controller for it.

The correct shift sequence is; 1st - 2nd - 3rd - 4th (OD), TC Lockup.

If you push the "OD/OFF" button on the dash, it will lock you out of 4th but give you lockup in 3rd.  So that becomes; 1st - 2nd - 3rd - TC Lockup.

Forgot to ask about the test on the Alternator. Since I don't appear to have any noise leakage then it is something mechanically somewhere in the shift sequence that is failing?

5 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

Cowboy,

 

I have been mulling over making a controller.  I would love to have automatic 2,3,4th lockup with unlocked shifting.  

 

The TC lockup clutch is pushed back from the "flywheel" like surface in the TC by TC fluid flowing through the input shaft, when you remove the that pressure a spring presses the clutch against the back face of the TC and thus you have lockup.

Way past my basic Rainman mentality. All of you are pretty darn smart and I enjoy seeing the conversations and subjects being discussed. When you say controller are you talking about building your own PCM computer for the transmission? I'm not going to go any futher with all of this because I don't know anything about the subject being discussed.

One thing, when did the computer controlled 47re come to life and would it make any difference to swap out an old school non-computerized transmission in place of what I have?

any suggestions on what to check next after eliminating AC voltage noise leaks?

Are you a programmer Cowboy and what about MExxxx9, does he also program or am I making the controller too complicated?

[Cowboy]

The 47RH which is mechanically controlled except for two switches to engage Overdrive and TC lockup came in 94-95, 47RE's came in 96-02 IIRC.  While the 47RH is a simpler and more rugged tranny, I don't think it would be worth the swap.

 

I'm not sure about ME*Smashes Keyboard*, but I'm just a farmer.  Yes it would be a little complicated, but shouldn't be to bad. 

On the tranny troubleshooting, I can't say I've never had 47RE issues, I just never fixed them lol, so I'm not going to be of much help.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Cowboy

[Me78569]

Server admin and do a bit of coding when needed.  I am much better with a wrench though. 

 

shouldn't be too hard to make a controller,  you would need to watch governor solenoid pressures then log them and look at the data to see when shifts happen.  Then you would have to tap into the vss and mirror the "shift" points when coded to do so.  

 

There is a lot more to it, but that is the gist.

[Greenlee]

On 2/18/2016 at 9:46 PM, Me78569 said:

shouldn't be too hard to make a controller,  you would need to watch governor solenoid pressures then log them and look at the data to see when shifts happen.  Then you would have to tap into the vss and mirror the "shift" points when coded to do so.  

Pretty Cool Mr. Programmer, and Cowboy, you might have been a government utility farmer at one time or another. The kind that have no address nor name, just a handle like, let's see here, Oh this one fits, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Cowboy????

Maybe you all are in the same company of folks that ID's don't show up about, or fingerprints for that matter!! Who knows.

I'm pretty dense at times, hate to admit but it's true. I am the type that needs to be involved hands on or Video. What I have learned from this site to me is priceless. Between here and YouTube there isn't much you can't get first hand info about. The clarity comes from the finale of discussed subjects here by the knowledge of the members willing to help.

The latest on my 12v transmission. It took a while for everything to sink in. NO voltage lead at all. Isolated the alternator and drove around to see how it would shift. Didn't take long and it was going back and forth between 30mph and 45mph then when you got by 45mph it smoothed out. Did it almost every time I got inside those limits with one exception, around 50mph and 55mph the OD or TC was shifting in and out. Ok, at the end of the day I hooked the 140  amp fuse link up using an 8mm socket, without my glasses and enough light it looked like Phillips head only. Thank you all for pointing that out. I continued to drive it the next day. It went crazy 3 different times. The next day it did it again briefly and now it's not doing the shifting back and forth routine at all?????????? I have continued to drive it daily a few miles at a time everyday that I could, no glitches. The only thing that has changed a little is once it makes a shift into 3rd gear between 28mph and 35mph the TC or OD (confused again) won't change until you get to 55mph. Doesn't stay consistent holding in gear but it does it with 3rd gear too, waiting to shift around 45 to 50mph range. Is it time to leave it alone or let my transmission guy figure it out?    Thanks for the advice everyone.

[Greenlee]

On 1/25/2016 at 7:09 PM, CSM said:

Greenlee, ever use one of these?  It is a rebadged Miller. 

One of the last years Miller made the 330 A/BP AC/DC High Frequency Welding Machine. Hey you ever use one of these?

[CSM]

26 minutes ago, Greenlee said:

One of the last years Miller made the 330 A/BP AC/DC High Frequency Welding Machine. Hey you ever use one of these?

Yep.  Best welder I ever used.  Simple yet immensely heavy.

[Greenlee]

3 hours ago, CSM said:

Yep.  Best welder I ever used.  Simple yet immensely heavy.

For old school AC/DC Transformer with No Electronics you can't beat it. This is my third 330, very low hours since it was new. I'll bet your a certified welder that compliments all of the other great skills you have. Your AIRCO 250 Amp AC/DC High Frequency is also a excellent, and smooth as you can get welding machine. I have used the AIRCO model that you currently own and many of the Miller identical twins. I owned several of the Miller 250 amp machines with all the bells and whistles decades ago. I considered buying a pulse setup but my concern was the boards and when they fail your looking at $1,500 plus depending on which one blows. Oh, by the way, it is a beast that weighs in at 870 LBS. Better have a set of wheels on it!!!