Anyone happen to know what size plug and thread the fill plug on the NV4500 is?

Ok.

 

I know this isn't much for load. I hitched up the BigTex 70TV trailer loaded it up with household trash and old tires I kept for spares. Maybe at the most 1,000 pound of cargo in the trailer. The trailer dry weight is 1,800 pounds. So not very much. I can say that traveling from home to Riggins, ID which is 1,000 feet elevation drop in 15 miles the trans temp never broke off of 100*F the whole way till I hit the city limits and dropped to 25 MPH now it barely made 105*F. So now the trailer is empty for the trip home. So cruise set at speed limit it took 15 miles to even get 125*F. Now worming around to park the trailer back in the yard and left the truck idling now it crawled up to 135*F when I parked it. Temperature wise I say this transmission and trans fluid is doing good.

 

Like I seen more reaction from the boost and pyrometer as I worked the truck back up hill.

Sorry to hijack this a bit.... but does anyone know what the G56 plug is??? It makes the 4500 plug look little. Now you've got me wanting to get mine ASAP!

Hmmm 1" maybe... Go the hardware store and grab a few different sizes of brass fittings.

11 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Hmmm 1" maybe... Go the hardware store and grab a few different sizes of brass fittings.

Thanks! I'll go do some checking. Did you run your wires along the firewall and down, or down and across the trans?

Out the  firewall and more or less straight line to the passenger side of the transmission.

 

Had to make another trip into town today a bit warmer weather (~80*F). Still in all it take better than 10-12 miles to get the gauge to rise from the 100*F mark. By the time I get to town gear down for 25 MPH now the transmission is warming up to 130*F or so. Now leave town and head home it varies from 120-130*F most of the time.

Ok so I'm travelling with RV and will report after travelling for 1.5 hours at highway speeds I'm roughly holding 140-160*F running 4th or 5th gears. Now drop into town it will rise with 3rd fear but cools right back off once back at highway speeds.

 

More to come...

Second day of towing max temp I've seen so far is 170*F. Still averaging roughly 140 to 160*F. Still shifting very well. I've called Abe @ Weller TTruck asked him what max temp is for the 50 SAE trans fluid. He states that it failure point is 300*F.

I wonder if the difference in fluid from what others are using is causing the temperature difference, or if it's the location of your probe?

I'll verify temp measurements when I return home. Just using the hand method the case from top to bottom feels equally in temperature. So I'll verify oil temp with external means of measurement.

While I question the location too. The biggest difference between Mike and I is that I out weigh him 2 to 1 and my trailer is 12'-8" tall. That will load up your tranny pretty good.

Lot of truth in that comment dripley.....  My 5th wheel is like pulling a sail boat behind me.....with the sails out.

 

Mike your temps sounds totally normal and what you should expect.  Sensor placement isnt going to dictate any difference since its most certainly getting splashed and the capacity area isnt that big.

 

I'm glad your temps are doing good too because I was a little fearful of the oil you're using.  Thats not saying it was a mistake either but more that I'm curious to see how it holds up for you with the fiber syncros.

 

Keep us posted though because I'm looking to see how well the temps do this summer when you have a heavy trailer behind you.  But just to point out again.....as long as you can maintain 4th gear while towing heavy, the odds are that the temps will never get above 180*.

Edited May 14, 20168 yr by KATOOM

49 minutes ago, KATOOM said:

Lot of truth in that comment dripley.....  My 5th wheel is like pulling a sail boat behind me.....with the sails out.

 

Mike your temps sounds totally normal and what you should expect.  Sensor placement isnt going to dictate any difference since its most certainly getting splashed and the capacity area isnt that big.

 

I'm glad your temps are doing good too because I was a little fearful of the oil you're using.  Thats not saying it was a mistake either but more that I'm curious to see how it holds up for you with the fiber syncros.

 

Keep us posted though because I'm looking to see how well the temps do this summer when you have a heavy trailer behind you.  But just to point out again.....as long as you can maintain 4th gear while towing heavy, the odds are that the temps will never get above 180*.

Get a good head wind and you would swear the anchor was out too.

 

I guess the only reason I questioned Mike's probe location was that is was only getting splashed. Thought the probe really needed to be immersed in the fluid to be accurate.  But now that I think of it the I believe that my gauge came with a bracket to mount it onto a trans fluid line, IIRC.

When I put a temp sensor on my differential I used the fill plug location which obviously sits level with the fluid.  Later I changed over to a Mag-hytec which has the sensor mounted directly on the top of the housing.....far from the oil "level" but the normal everyday running temps didnt change.

I might get a wild hair one day and swap my probe to the other cooler with the port up high and see what happens.

On May 10, 2016 at 5:39 PM, Mopar1973Man said:

new 5th gear (lower)

 

 

Whats the new ratio?

9 hours ago, KATOOM said:

When I put a temp sensor on my differential I used the fill plug location which obviously sits level with the fluid.  Later I changed over to a Mag-hytec which has the sensor mounted directly on the top of the housing.....far from the oil "level" but the normal everyday running temps didnt change.

 

 

Mag-Hytec puts it up there as all the fluid coming off the ring gear hits that spot and gives the most accurate reading. 

 

I dont think the same is true for the fill port on the NV4500. I think the fill port location will read low nearly all the time, even overfilled a little. 

15 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

I'll verify temp measurements when I return home. Just using the hand method the case from top to bottom feels equally in temperature. So I'll verify oil temp with external means of measurement.

 

I've read about enough differences from case temp to fluid temp to know that external measuring is only a rough guesstimate. 

 

So is the temp increase in 3rd from the gearing reduction or a higher fluid level from a lower speed actually allowing the probe to work? I'm guessing the latter. 

Edited May 14, 20168 yr by AH64ID

I believe he was referring to the lower 5th gear, as in the one on the countershaft.

 

Someone needs to weld a bung on a PTO cover and send it to Mike for some absolute accurate readings.  If one were to do that, where would be the best place to weld the bung?  Center? Top?

 

I have done a lot of data analysis with different sensors and such, and have learned it is 100% worth it to think of every problem possible with the sensor location or design.  If you don't naysayers will discount your readings (often times those people are correct) and even if everyone accepts it as truth, knowing that it is as accurate of reading possible gives you a warm fuzzy feeling inside.  That extra 10% of time it takes makes the 90% shine so much more brightly.

 

There was a guy somewhat recently that did some "testing" and stated that a banks dual ram intake lowered EGT's ~ 40° at idle.  He took these readings with a IR heat gun.  I give props to the guy for trying, but I just don't see that being accurate, there are too many other variables.

Edited May 14, 20168 yr by Cowboy

Gotcha, I read a new 5th gear (lower) as a new lower 5th gear.. :-)

 

I would put the bung in the bottom 1/3 of the PTO cover, and then put it on the driver side away from exhaust heat. Not for the reading but for the wires. I know Micheal also does a bunch of the slow hot driving. 

1 hour ago, AH64ID said:

 

Whats the new ratio?

 

 

Mag-Hytec puts it up there as all the fluid coming off the ring gear hits that spot and gives the most accurate reading. 

 

I dont think the same is true for the fill port on the NV4500. I think the fill port location will read low nearly all the time, even overfilled a little. 

 

I've read about enough differences from case temp to fluid temp to know that external measuring is only a rough guesstimate. 

 

So is the temp increase in 3rd from the gearing reduction or a higher fluid level from a lower speed actually allowing the probe to work? I'm guessing the latter. 

 

I agree about the differential ring gear sling under an extreme situation, but I would probably be more safe to bet that Mag-hytec used that sensor location simply because its up high and safe from debris rather than anything to do with accuracy.  And in saying all this, really think everyone is over thinking the sensor placement within these two scenarios.  Not only is there just a mere "one gallon" of fluid being measured here, but also worth pointing out that fluid temperature simply doesn't change rapid enough to justify a heat dissipation range people are suggesting when there is no heat dissipating component involved, especially in a tiny iron case.  Plus if anyone thinks the fill plug isnt getting the necessary fluid contact.....then try taking your fill plug out and driving to town.  Lets see how much pukes out before you get there.....  I'm betting the case will be close to dry.

 

And if someone is going to try and tell me that by the time fluid slings off the gears and tosses over to the sensor that there will be a significant reduction in heat via some level of unknown dissipation.....then this whole conversation is beyond the scope of simplistic gauges available to the everyday consumer.  And if that kind of heat difference is the case then to best the situation at hand it would be better to drill and tap the case in multiple locations for multiple sensors just to assure all points of fluid contact with every gear and bearing is vitally monitored.

 

Yes, I agree in that making sure the sensor is placed on the opposite side of the exhaust just to be sure no radiant heat is involved placing any direct heat on the exterior of the sensor itself..... But other than that, the one gallon of fluid crashing around the constantly turning and churning gears inside that tiny confined space is going to mix up any temperature differences about as fast as a blender mixing a margarita.  IE, pretty quick.

 

Now if we were discussing an automatic which has cooling lines and coolers involved in this conversation then absolutely there is a definite reason to be assured of the sensor location because you will have a significant reading variance from one location to another.

 

I also agree that an external reading with a laser temp tool will be reasonable at best, but it will still give enough understanding of whats going on overall.  Nonetheless, "real time" data with an internal sensor is always going to be the best case.

 

Lastly, just pointing out that the temperature increase in 3rd gear is most definitely from the ratio reduction and nothing to do with higher fluid level from a lower speed.  Same thing will apply to 5th gear.....or any other gear besides 1:1 for that matter.  Thats not my suggestion or opinion either but just physical fact as any gear reduction, ratio change, and hypoid action will generate heat.  This is why the differential will always run hotter.

 

Also worth noting that I have my sensor mounted on the opposite side of the fill plug in a Fastcooler aluminum sink, which sits low and constantly bathed by fluid, and my temperatures are about the same as what Mike has seen so far.

 

Above all, this is a good thread for those who may not understand what temps a manual transmission will generate.

If you look at the sensor location and ring gear rotation it's not an extreme situation where fluid flings against it, it's all the time. 

 

While fluid will be splashing around inside the NV4500 I do not for a second think it will be anything like the rear end. The placement would have to be perfect to get slung fluid on it. No the temp of the fluid will not change enough to be of concern, it's simply a matter of proper slinging volume. 

 

3rd gear will provide more heat from gearing reduction; however, there is a lot lower power requirement at "in town" speeds from the reduction in speed, drag, and thus the torque input from the gearing reduction. It's not just like 5th gear (OD). In 5th gear the engine must produce more torque to get the same rear wheel torque and your torque requirement is much higher based on speed and drag. 3rd gear in town is not the same. To me it makes a lot more sense that the lower speed reduces slinging which increase the fluid level and the slightly overfilled trans now has more fluid on the sender and starts to provide a more accurate reading. 

 

Arbitray numbers and assuming wheel torque requirement is same in 3rd and 5th, which it wouldn't be in real life assuming level ground. 

 

1,000 lb/ft to the rear needs 1333 from the engine in 5th but only 598 from the engine in 3rd. The heat generated by 3rd is going to less than the heat generated in 5th. 

 

If your temps on the opposite side and in a cooler are about what he is seeing then it adds to my thought that he is reading low. Your temps should always be lower than his for a given gear/load/speed. 

Edited May 14, 20168 yr by AH64ID