Quadzilla Adrenaline V2 Testing

[crf450ish]

Hmm. I'll have to try again. I Just drive for a while then export it right? 

Dude sorry for posting a bunch of nonsense ? I didn't know what else to do. 

[Me78569]

yep just drive then hit the export button, give it time to bring up the save as intent window and select the save method you want.

[Mopar1973Man]

11 hours ago, crf450ish said:

Hmm. I'll have to try again. I Just drive for a while then export it right? 

Dude sorry for posting a bunch of nonsense ? I didn't know what else to do. 

 

 

You have to wait quite awhile for the export to gather up its stuff. It seems like your last export is incomplete the last few lines are more or less junk missing data. 

[crf450ish]

Next time I drive from my house to Spokane Valley, I'll hit export once I stop in Spokane Valley. 

Hey will lowering the fuel stretch net a slight increase in MPG?

Edited February 28, 2017 by crf450ish

[Me78569]

well that depends if your wiretap settings are preventing wiretap from applying during your cruise state then it won't.  In terms of MPG I have yet to see anything that shows me wiretap can raise MPG when you have control of timing.

 

 

My tunes all have wiretap not being applied when I am at cruise state

 

pump low boost scale psi: 8 is above my cruising psi amount so wiretap does not apply until you hit 8 psi. 

 

 

If your tunes are build in a way that wiretap is on during cruise state then less wiretap will often help mpg because you simply don't need wiretap fueling at cruise state. 

 

 

Now before our trucks typically got their best MPG with the tuners cranked, but that was actually a result of load dropping due to less tps needed to keep moving.  This would make the ecm run a higher timing number and thus better mpg.

 

[crf450ish]

16 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

well that depends if your wiretap settings are preventing wiretap from applying during your cruise state then it won't.  In terms of MPG I have yet to see anything that shows me wiretap can raise MPG when you have control of timing.

 

 

My tunes all have wiretap not being applied when I am at cruise state

 

pump low boost scale psi: 8 is above my cruising psi amount so wiretap does not apply until you hit 8 psi. 

 

 

If your tunes are build in a way that wiretap is on during cruise state then less wiretap will often help mpg because you simply don't need wiretap fueling at cruise state. 

 

 

Now before our trucks typically got their best MPG with the tuners cranked, but that was actually a result of load dropping due to less tps needed to keep moving.  This would make the ecm run a higher timing number and thus better mpg.

 

That is exactly what I thought....therefore i increased my power levels from 6 to 10. Less wiretap % being delivered. 

[Me78569]

you can also just bump your pump low boost scale psi up to be above your typical DD psi.  however at low speeds when cruise timing is not in effect I doubt very much that wiretap will alter mpg very much....as long as you are not on the heavy pedal.   

 

at 55 -75 I could see it drop mpg if it was always running.  

[crf450ish]

I did also venture outside of the recommended 13~16* of timing for 1500 rpm range for a while yesterday just to see what would happen, put it at 17*. Not much happened that I seen....my truck cruises at 60 mph in the 1900 rpm range. I put it back to 16*. I need studs like yesterday. Most important insurance. 

 

Now my low PSI timing reduction is at 1*. Wouldn't that parameter being set higher counteract higher max rpm timing? For example if I successfully attain 19.25* of timing average while cruising @ 2100 rpm at 68 MPH (which I did)....then having the low psi timing reduct set higher would pull my desired timing at 2000 RPMs, thus lowering my overall MPG? Are these assumptions correct?

Edited February 28, 2017 by crf450ish

[Me78569]

first you need to seperate in your mind cruise state and performance state in terms of timing maps

 

If cruise state is enabled all timing variables are set to 0 except cruise timing, if cruise is disabled then it is set to 0 and you get the others. It is always one or the other, never both.  

 

Cruise timing needs to stay stable and linear to ensure you get the best MPG possible.  However this means you can't use cruise timing when under load because cruise timing is not good or safe for high load situtations.  this is why the boost limit variable was created to ensure that if you top that limit cruise will disable and you are left with your performance timing curve.

 

Timing reduction pulls timing ONLY if TPS is high and boost is low.  So that is for when you jump on the throttle off boost the Quad will pull timing to help spool the turbo.  once boost is up timing reduction does to %0 and it is not used.  You canset timing reduction to a higher * without pulling your timing to low when you are just poking around town.

 

 

I would suggest you data log to see what timing does in these situtations.  You will under the tuning better.  You will clearly see timing drop if you get on the pedal when boost is low. 

[crf450ish]

5 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

first you need to seperate in your mind cruise state and performance state in terms of timing maps

 

LOL, I agree. 

5 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

 

If cruise state is enabled all timing variables are set to 0 except cruise timing, if cruise is disabled then it is set to 0 and you get the others. It is always one or the other, never both.  

 

Cruise timing needs to stay stable and linear to ensure you get the best MPG possible.  However this means you can't use cruise timing when under load because cruise timing is not good or safe for high load situtations.  this is why the boost limit variable was created to ensure that if you top that limit cruise will disable and you are left with your performance timing curve.

Ok, so I have Cruise Boost limit @ 12psi...I feel thats good for me, because HWY25 near my area is rather hilly and windy with grades no more than 3%....I can easily do 80 if I wanted.  

5 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

Timing reduction pulls timing ONLY if TPS is high and boost is low.  So that is for when you jump on the throttle off boost the Quad will pull timing to help spool the turbo.  once boost is up timing reduction does to %0 and it is not used.  You canset timing reduction to a higher * without pulling your timing to low when you are just poking around town.

 

Ok, great. Not confused anymore! Thank you very much!

5 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

 

I would suggest you data log to see what timing does in these situtations.  You will under the tuning better.  You will clearly see timing drop if you get on the pedal when boost is low. 

Working on it lol. Thanks allot dude, I appreciate your willingness to help me with all of this. I am a slow learner, sorry. 

[Me78569]

no worries.  I've had 8 months of coding this garabage to understand it lol.  

[Carbur8tr]

@Me78569 I had a thought and also need some clarification with timing.  Earlier you said that if I set the cruise timing to 0 that it would revert to ECM (default) timing.  Is that true, because what I saw today was a bit odd.

 

So while I was driving I switch from PL0 to PL2 and the timing was completely different and higher on PL2. Not sure if the max timing table was coming into play here but the quad was definitely adding some timing.

 

So the factory timing seems to do a pretty good job of adjusting for load and the more I toy around with the timing the more I can't help but think that the low timing with a high load was intended for a purpose.  EGTs can be throw out of the equation for the sake of this argument plus I have yet to see a large difference between the truck jumping around from 17-18 down to 12-13 while towing.

 

@Mopar1973Man Back to our topic of high timing and injector/pintle wear, I would venture to say that we were on something a while back when we theorized that the higher timing helped with mpgs but also could potentially cause higher cylinder temperatures which was why we were getting a little bit of lope from time to time.  I noticed the other day that the idle seemed to present itself after a short run around 85-90mph.  Timing was up around 20-21.5 during that time and I ususally don't push the truck to those speeds, but speed limit was 85 so I figured why not.  

 

Coming full circle, @Me78569 do you think it would be possible to let the ECM do what it will for timing but design a low timing limit of say 14 so that the Quad will only allow the timing to be pulled down to the limit you set?  After watching the timing on PL0 it almost looks like my truck bumps timing up quite well when pulling through the gears.  Now obviously when I floor it things change but for the daily driving low throttle/low load acceleration I think the stock parameters would do an ok job of advancing timing.  Thoughts for now but wanted to see what your opinion was.

 

Also, with all this timing advance I have to wonder if maybe we could now benefit from a tighter spray pattern.

[Me78569]

Setting cruise timing to 0 will disable cruise timing and revert to your base timing, not OEM timing.

 

lvl 2 + is when you get your timing, lvl 1 is oem timing.  The Quad does not use OEM timing anymore after temp is reached and above 1500 rpm.  From 1000 to 1500 it will use oem as the low limit and your 1500 as you high limit so timing should be very similar low in the rev range to oem.

 

What I have found when watching OEM timing is it really wants to keep timing at ~11-12* of timing when you get on the throttle until ~2400 rpm.  everything I have tried makes me think that it is too low for performance.

 

The way you are thinking about having timing work was the orginal v2 tuning.  I remember you telling me how much better throttle response was after the update for the timing curve stuff, IE throwing out OEM timing.  The fueling code is %100 the same before and after that change.  I am forced to believe your findings were due to bringing up timing under load / boost coming up slightly.

 

You can test your theory by setting your timing curve how you want it.  You should be able to emulate the oem curve pretty close by setting max at 1500 rpm of 14, 2000 at 16 then 2500 at 22 and so forth. 

 

Then set timing reduct to 5* and scaling to %80  

 

Then fuel load to 2* 

 

 

I will say data logging the Smarty people seem to always agree the timing curve needs to come up faster than OEM allows for. 

[Mopar1973Man]

43 minutes ago, Carbur8tr said:

@Mopar1973Man Back to our topic of high timing and injector/pintle wear, I would venture to say that we were on something a while back when we theorized that the higher timing helped with mpgs but also could potentially cause higher cylinder temperatures which was why we were getting a little bit of lope from time to time.  I noticed the other day that the idle seemed to present itself after a short run around 85-90mph.  Timing was up around 20-21.5 during that time and I ususally don't push the truck to those speeds, but speed limit was 85 so I figured why not.  

 

 

 

 

I've gone through my injectors and hand cleaned them all and re-polished the pintle shoulders and tips to make sure there was no debris or burrs. It reduced the miss to very faint level after hard runs. Basically chucked up the pintle and using a shop rag and some polishing compound to polish the pintle smooth. Still high speed runs tends to make it more noticeable. I'm back down... way down... 14* performance and 16-17* cruise timing. I'm still roughly 2-3* over stock numbers. 

 

1500 - 14*

2000 - 16*

2500 - 18*

3000 - 21*

Max - 24*

Cruise - 4*

Fuel Load - 2*

 

Edited March 2, 2017 by Mopar1973Man

[Carbur8tr]

26 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

Setting cruise timing to 0 will disable cruise timing and revert to your base timing, not OEM timing.

 

lvl 2 + is when you get your timing, lvl 1 is oem timing.  The Quad does not use OEM timing anymore after temp is reached and above 1500 rpm.  From 1000 to 1500 it will use oem as the low limit and your 1500 as you high limit so timing should be very similar low in the rev range to oem.

 

What I have found when watching OEM timing is it really wants to keep timing at ~11-12* of timing when you get on the throttle until ~2400 rpm.  everything I have tried makes me think that it is too low for performance.

 

The way you are thinking about having timing work was the orginal v2 tuning.  I remember you telling me how much better throttle response was after the update for the timing curve stuff, IE throwing out OEM timing.  The fueling code is %100 the same before and after that change.  I am forced to believe your findings were due to bringing up timing under load / boost coming up slightly.

Definitely and the throttle response is awesome but I can't help but wonder what the cost of that might be.  For instance Mike and I now have a weird lope at times with timing just barely above what the stock ECM calls for.  Not saying that we have a definitive answer on the timing vs lope conclusion, nor am I denying the timing use and place, but still leaves me to wonder if there was a purpose for the timing being low in the first place. 

 

Might be the nature of the beast and the pump itself, might not.  I know that there are many Ppump guys running mid 20s for timing with no issues but then again different pump, slightly different injection event.  So this would point towards the timing not being the issue.  

 

26 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

You can test your theory by setting your timing curve how you want it.  You should be able to emulate the oem curve pretty close by setting max at 1500 rpm of 14, 2000 at 16 then 2500 at 22 and so forth. 

 

Then set timing reduct to 5* and scaling to %80  

 

Then fuel load to 2* 

 

 

I will say data logging the Smarty people seem to always agree the timing curve needs to come up faster than OEM allows for. 

I agree, I guess my big question is cruise timing and just timing in general and what the purpose was to pull it down so significantly under load and acceleration.

I wouldn't think twice but dropping timing by 9 or so degrees is definitely pointing to a purpose, not just random coding.  Also to the cylinder heat, if the higher timing does indeed increase the amount of heat in the cylinder this could be why the timing, when cold, is so high.  The engineers might have designed it this way to get the cylinder temperature up quicker.

[Mopar1973Man]

12 minutes ago, Carbur8tr said:

I know that there are many Ppump guys running mid 20s for timing with no issues but then again different pump, slightly different injection event.

 

 

 

You got to remember those guys are also running monster fire nozzle injectors typically too. I'm running nearly stock +50 HP injector (7 x 0.008) so my fuel is atomized rather well and doesn't require the extra timing to get the fuel to light off. Also I'm running high cetane fuels right now with winter fuel still being supplied.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Mopar1973Man

[Me78569]

What i am stuck on is Tyler datalogged the smarty and nothing we are doing with the current "recommended" timing curve is more aggressive than what the Smarty is doing.

 

Also consider the way the quad used to add timing was purely oem + a mapped value from the timing limit.   You would easily see 25+ * of timing by 2500 rpm.    

 

Not saying you aren't right or wrong, just thinking through what we are doing now vs before to try and spot what is different.

 

 

I think the reason why timing is so high when cold is to allow enough time for the Intake air to heat up enough to fully combust.  If I set static timing of says 12* the truck idles like garbage and I get a TON of white smoke when cold.  without that high timing the truck simply doesn't run well.    Once you get a little heat in the engine then this is no longer and issue.  

 

 

Now as to why OEM timing is held so low under high load, I am puzzled by it.   I would figure that the timing map would need to be more linear, why ramp up timing so rapidly at ~2200 rpm?   truly puzzling.    

 

If we look at efi live the timing maps are always pretty linear once the turbo is lit.   I dunno I am open to thoughts on it all.

[Carbur8tr]

Very true, and mine are not that much bigger than yours.

 

I'm also on an HO motor so there's that too.

@Me78569 True, and using the same logic, one could imply that once the cylinder temp was up it would require less to ignite the fuel in the bowl and by pushing the fuel in early we could be causing excess heat.  

[Me78569]

@Carbur8tr I %100 agree.  

 

I am fairly sure that your truck, being an ho, needs a 1*-2* offset of timing compared to ours.  I am all but sure the HO pumps are advanced in their design.

 

 

The only thing I am pretty dang sure of is that we aren't going to run into issues with the current way timing is working.  If the old Quadzilla tunes weren't blowing head gaskets left and right I very much doubt we will now.  I data logged the old stuff and just laughed.  

 

It might be that 20* is too much timing for cruise state for some guys.  Mine doesn't seem to care, but my auto keeps the truck loaded at idle so I might never hear or encounter it.

 

Dunno I am very glad that the vp44 is "user friendly" when it comes to tuning.   I made some mistakes in code that maxed out timing at 30* under 1500 rpm lol and nothing bad happened.  I am sure prolonged at that would, but overall the system seems pretty "nick" proof.

 

 

[Mopar1973Man]

9 hours ago, Me78569 said:

Mine doesn't seem to care, but my auto keeps the truck loaded at idle so I might never hear or encounter it.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm in neutral at every stop I come too. So I hear the step down idle and then the once it steps down the vert faint misfire starts. It only takes me pulling on the steering wheel or pressing harder on the brake to kill it off. Now when it was bad it would shake the entire cab and loads wasn't enough to stop the miss. The funny part is shut it down for 30-60 seconds and start again the miss is gone. I shown a few friends this and then are scratching their heads. I do know it an injector issue for sure. This is exactly what happened to my RV275's when they went. Pop pressure fell to 240bar. Thes injectors don't even have 100k miles yet.  

 

I will say that Quadzilla is not the cause per say. It might be producing conditions that create the issues. I will say it not the cause. All I know it period of long highway speed that will start the miss only at idle. I've had this issue on the Edge Comp in the past. I might be just unlucky to have injectors going south. 

 

Another way I'm going about tuning is to flip to ZERO level (stock) sample the timing the the timing given for different loads, speeds and attempt to slightly advance that timing. Thing to remember is the stock OEM timing is built around EPA rules not performance. This is why I look back still at a few thing like my MPG fooler it retards timing to gain MPG's which is usually because of the excessive cold IAT timing map. Then looking back on p7100 tuners that are not racing typically set for 16* to 17* typically for highway vehicles. 

 

I'm trying to base my tune on the fact I'm typically 15-30% engline load for hours, boost pressure is typically <5 PSI. So as for huge timing I just don't see it when I spin the RPM's barely 1,600 to 1,900 for 55-65 MPH. The only time this rule changes is 55 in 4th gear now steps up to 2,100 RPM's and running 80 MPH on I84 then I'm turning nearly 2,400 RPM but at 15 PSI of boost.

 

Edited March 2, 2017 by Mopar1973Man