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JPhauler87

Grossing 16-17k in the Northeast, should I expect more from truck?

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Hello all. Been lurking for a while, first post!


This truck is still new to me, trying to figure out what’s normal and what’s not.

 

2006 G56 4wd 3.73 DRW 163k

 

I have a little over 3000 miles on a long block with a Hamilton 178/208 with reman injectors I sourced from my local Bosch facility. While I’d prefer a Smarty Jr, truck came with a Juice with Attitude so I have been running that. All else is stock.

 

My normal trip and main use for this truck is hauling my 8.5x20 standard height bumper pull enclosed with my Jeep inside from CT to PA via interstates 84 and 81. Trailer is roughly 8500lb loaded up, so I am guessing I am somewhere between 16-17k lb gross, though I have not been to the scale.

 

The hills on this route are not what I would call extreme, but some are relatively steep and many drag on for 2-3 miles. With the stock tune but Edge boost fooling to 35lb, just about every hill would have my boost maxed out there with EGTs between 1200-1300*F with Edge reporting 100% load. On medium sized rolling hills this was enough to maintain 70mph, but not on the longer grades. Not much change between Edge settings between stock and 2, but 3 seemed to provide a noticeable bump. On 3, medium rolling hills were down to 25lb and 70% load, EGTs about the same but still losing speed on longer grades. When pulling grades losing speed, I noticed that boost and EGTs would reduce with rpm, I would max out around 30lb and 1150*F by the time I was down to 2000rpm, this differs from my 12v a few years ago that would fuel consistently no matter what, though I realize this is a different animal and may be normal operation.

 

70 mph puts me about 2300rpm. Both fill ups netted me 9mpg, which seems low to me. Daily driving seems to be about 15mpg. Towards the end of the trip I separated from my friends with lighter setups and slowing down to 65-70mph and the truck seems happier there, 70+ and it seemed it needed 15lb of boost just to maintain speed, though there is basically zero flat terrain on the entire trip.

 

Some things to note:

Not making or consuming oil

Light black haze pulling hard with Edge on 3, no other smoke

Rail pressure is 20kpsi full load at 2300rpm, idles at 7kpsi

Baldwin filter in stock canister, Donaldson 3mic/water sep on frame rail

I have slight shake in the truck most noticeable through the shifter between 1600 and 2000rpm, I can’t hear a miss in the engine or exhaust and all exhaust manifold ports laser thermometer’d within 10*F or so at idle and 1500rpm – balance issue somewhere?

 

 

Does this sound normal? Should I start poking around my truck or adjust my expectations? Or do I need to just slow down. With 325/610 stock, I figured 8500lb would be a breeze at 70. It does it, but it seems to be working.

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First thing quit forcing the truck to climb using cruise control. Next drive by pyrometer. Typically I slow down on grades and gear down climb slower. Typically just pulling my RV I get 11-13  MPG and total gross weight is right at 16,800 to 17,200 pounds. Speed just adds more to the rolling resistance, wind drag, etc.

 

Next thing is run the Edge at the highest level possible. Lower the level the worse the MPG's are going to be. What you looking for is holding the tach around 2,000 to 2,100 RPM's and best climbing gear is the direct ratio (4th of 5 speed) or (5th of 6 speed) or (3rd of a Auto).

Edited by Mopar1973Man

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I'd say 9 mpg towing at 70 mph is completely normal.  

 

I'd ditch the edge and get EFI live and report back.    There is no reason to not have good tuning on your truck.  The Edge is far from that.  

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Thanks guys, doesn't sound like I have anything to be worried about mechanically then. I was not using cruise control, but it sounds like I may need to just keep my speed down where the truck feels more comfortable.

 

I am assuming highest setting on Edge is best due to most timing advance. I have been considering selling the Edge and buying a Smarty Jr because that seems to be the easiest and simplest way to add timing, which I think is probably what my truck needs more than anything, not more duration or boost which is what the Edge mainly does.

 

I am clueless about EFI live, Google search shows PPEI makes an EFI live handheld unit and it comes loaded with 5 tunes from them. Does that also give me options to upload tunes from somewhere else? I was under the impression EFI live was a pretty universal thing. What do you guys reccomend for my use? Feel free to point me in the general direction of where I can learn the basics, I will do some more reading.

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Dump the Edge, and get a Smarty.  

 

I've had both.....................Edge ran hotter.

 

Check the classifieds.................I have a Smarty for sale................make an offer.............recently upgraded to PoD status by member AH64ID here.

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Did a 300 mile round trip from CT to NH this weekend with the same load. Again, no flat terrain but none of the longer several mile hills like in NY and PA. Ran the Edge on 5 with lowest boost response setting and kept speed at 65-67mph which put me right at 2100rpm. It is very happy there, 20-22lb of boost and 1100* were all I needed for almost every hill. 10.5mpg.

 

Switched back to stock tune for one small hill, yuck. EGTs were a little cooler but I was constantly making lots of boost while feeling like it wasn't adding any power. Guessing the timing bump helps with that?

 

I do have to watch EGTs with the Edge on 5 though which makes me a little nervous. Over 2300rpm or so if I lay into, boost and temps skyrocket. Unfortunately, when you are starting from a stop and heading up a hill on the backroads, you need some rpms so you aren't lugging it once you shift and that makes it a little tough.

 

I am happier now that I've found a kind of sweet spot, may keep the Edge for a bit and drill/tap a second hole in the manifold so I can run the Edge EGT probe and have it automatically protect me from melting down. Or sell it now and just get a Smarty :)

 

Thanks for the help guys.

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5 hours ago, JPhauler87 said:

Did a 300 mile round trip from CT to NH this weekend with the same load. Again, no flat terrain but none of the longer several mile hills like in NY and PA. Ran the Edge on 5 with lowest boost response setting and kept speed at 65-67mph which put me right at 2100rpm. It is very happy there, 20-22lb of boost and 1100* were all I needed for almost every hill. 10.5mpg.

 

Switched back to stock tune for one small hill, yuck. EGTs were a little cooler but I was constantly making lots of boost while feeling like it wasn't adding any power. Guessing the timing bump helps with that?

 

I do have to watch EGTs with the Edge on 5 though which makes me a little nervous. Over 2300rpm or so if I lay into, boost and temps skyrocket. Unfortunately, when you are starting from a stop and heading up a hill on the backroads, you need some rpms so you aren't lugging it once you shift and that makes it a little tough.

 

I am happier now that I've found a kind of sweet spot, may keep the Edge for a bit and drill/tap a second hole in the manifold so I can run the Edge EGT probe and have it automatically protect me from melting down. Or sell it now and just get a Smarty :)

 

Thanks for the help guys.

 

 

Glad you found a spot where the Edge works for you.  

 

As I said prior;  I've had both, and the Smarty is "night and day" better than the Edge product.  Better low end "grunt" and much cooler EGT's.  And you'll likely not need to monitor the EGT's so much with the Smarty.  

 

You can still use your Edge for gauges if'n you don't have any and get the Smarty.......................Just need to set the Edge back to "stock".

 

As I posted prior....................I've got a Smarty for sale in the classifieds if'n you're interested.

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Dorkweed, I sent you a PM. I don't think I can access that part of the forum yet, unless I'm missing something. Says 404 error when I click on classifieds.

 

The manual for my Edge says some Dodge trucks have a timing only option but I couldn't find it. Called Edge, mine does not have that. The guy also said he did not reccomend towing on a higher level than 2, even with my SB clutch and keeping boost and EGTs in line. I am guessing that a little more fuel with a bit more timing puts a lot of pressure on things? Not sure if I should continue to tow on that setting. Too bad, it really seemed to help reduce the amount of boost I needed to pull hills or maintain speed.

 

I realize the Smarty Jr is a better product, but it seems it's still going to have to add some amount of timing to get to where I am now with Edge all the way up.

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I am running an Edge comp on my second gen and tow in level 2X3. I am grossing about 23k and the one trip I made with it so far from Muslce shoals AL to Hickory NC I netted 11.3 mpg running between 60 to 70 mph. It was hill country so I did spend some time in 5th but mostly 6th. I do turn less rpm than you, 2000 at 70 mph. Maybe that is the difference between us. Definitely not comparing apples to apples.

 

My next trip I had planned on running level 3X3 and see how that works. Level five while towing is not something I ver contemplated doing. Seems like way to much power to shove thru the drive line, at least at my weight. I ran a Banks programmer rated at 75 rwhp for years with no issues. Some of that was with the stock clutch. Never slipped it.

 

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I've been running a Edge Comp on 5x3 or 5x5 for years even towing.  I'm right at about 16k to 18k most times. All the data logging I've done I can clear 11-13 MPG most trips at 55-65 MPH more so in the mountains and windy roads. Here is my high marks of the run on 5x3 on the Edge Comp as well as my MPG logs.

 

As you'll notice the HP number will not climb as high towing but the torque number is way up. I didn't reset my trip on the last tank of fuel its was apartial so I don't bother on those. IAT is high in this one because of exhaust braking to home when I snapped the screen shot.

Screenshot_2016-08-30-19-00-12.png

 

The stray 43 MPG again I fired the tablet up and didn't drive far and shut down... Disregard that entry... I ran with the RV on the 30th.

Screenshot_2016-08-31-15-14-00.png

Edited by Mopar1973Man

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On 8/29/2016 at 9:14 AM, JPhauler87 said:

 

Switched back to stock tune for one small hill, yuck. EGTs were a little cooler but I was constantly making lots of boost while feeling like it wasn't adding any power. Guessing the timing bump helps with that?

 

That right there is a big red flag for me!

 

EGT's should never be cooler on stock than a tune with timing, or any tune, especially when towing (drag/sled pull tunes aside... but that's a different scenario). As others have stated the EDGE runs HOT but I never realized they ran that hot! 

 

As for stock 325/610 pulling 8.5K at 70 up a grade it all depends on the drag of the trailer. My 8-9K TT gets my load to 100% pretty easily at 65-70 on stock tuning, but my trans OD is a little taller than yours. 

 

So I would hit dorkweed up on his Smarty. The S-06 is a better option if you ever plan to get custom tuning for it, otherwise the Jr is a good choice. If you want a Jr I have a used one I could part ways with, just let me know. 

 

Welcome to the forum!

 

On 8/22/2016 at 9:13 AM, Mopar1973Man said:

Next thing is run the Edge at the highest level possible. 

 

NO NO NO!!! This is a HPCR thread!!

 

It's bad enough advice that you should probably delete/edit the info so others don't read it and take it to heart. 

Edited by AH64ID
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9 hours ago, AH64ID said:

NO NO NO!!! This is a HPCR thread!!

 

It's bad enough advice that you should probably delete/edit the info so others don't read it and take it to heart. 

 

Did that for my last trip, took it easy and EGT boost never got out of line, but hopefully I didn't do any damage... I will dial it down to 2 or 3 next trip. Care to expand on why it's different for a HPCR vs a 2nd gen? Mainly the fact that they run hotter in general or is there more to it.

 

Truck needs tires, working on a set of 19.5s so that's my free cash for a bit. No Smarty for me for a few weeks.

 

Theoretical question: it seems to me, and I think I have read, EGTs are an indication of air as it's leaving the cylinder but not necessarily and indication of how hot air inside the cylinder is getting. If you advance the timing, aren't you just moving the peak temp into the cylinder instead of the exhaust? It's all a zero sum game. How can you be sure your tuning and temps are safe without actually measuring what's happening during combustion in the cylinder?

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A HPCR has more variables to a tune, but basically the duration/rail pressure/timing combo on higher level tunes can be too much for sustained power and higher cylinder heat. It may not document on a pyro. The way that Edge increases EGT's with added timing is bad, IMHO. It is all based on that hypothetical question. As timing increases the cylinder temperature, and pressure, increase but so does efficiency and power output, to a point. It's about finding that balance of EGT's, cylinder temps, and for the OEM tune emissions. 

 

The OEM tune has a very retarded timing profile to meet emissions. Aftermarket tuning advances the timing back to a more non-EPA level that improves performance. With added timing EGT's should drop, so when EGT's increase it can mean too much timing, or a combo of added timing and too much fuel. 

 

I also don't know that running the levels max'd out on a 2nd gen is a good thing, but I'm not familar enough with the tuning of a 2nd gen to make an educated comment. I do know that there are a few 2nd gens on here that are over fueled/tuned for their turbo but they just drive by the pyro. That can actually let you run too much tune and stay safer; however, I prefer a tune that's appropriate for the entire motor. 

 

The 04.5-07's would run 1450° EGT's all day when towing with the OEM tuning. With the tuning I have in my 2005 now I would likely melt a piston at those temps and won't let it get above 1250° continuous, but it works out as it's very difficult to get it above those temps. 

 

What kinds of loads do you plan on hauling with 19.5's on a DRW?? That's a lot of tire for a DRW

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Once or twice I got over 1300* (may have touched 1400? :/) very briefly while winding out a bit  under load to keep from lugging the next gear as I started up a hill. Continuous was kept to 1300* or less. I don't show any signs of blowby and runs the same as it has, but regardless I will dial it back. Last thing I need is to pull this engine out again.

 

Advancing timing with a Jr still worries me because the unknowns are still there as to what's happening to the pistons. Aside from other's experiences, but we all know that no two trucks, trailers, hills, etc are the same.

 

I drilled a second EGT probe hole in the manifold for the Edge in the 5/6 collector. Gauge reads from top of the manifold between 3 and 4 I believe, I am getting 100-150* hotter readings on my gauge than the Edge which I thought was interesting... I always thought 5/6 collector was the hottest and most conservative place to put and egt probe.

 

I may end up with a bigger trailer putting me around the 20k gross mark at some point, but I am mainly after the treadlife friends of mine see with the 19.5s.

Edited by JPhauler87

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Personally I would be more worried with the Edge than the Smarty as the edge is know to run hotter and add timing. That's just my 0.02, but I have been messing with these CR's since 2007 and custom tuning them since the beta testing phase of UDC. 

 

The pistons are not an issue with added timing as long as the timing is appropriate and the duration isn't crazy long, neither of which is an issue on a Smarty or Smarty Jr on the lower settings (where I recommend towing at). I have seen several sets of 04.5-07 pistons with lots of heavy towing on a Smarty Jr, and even more timing, and there are zero issues as long as the EGT's are kept appropriate. By that I mean 1250° max continuous, 1300° max and only for very short bursts. Stock EGT's are not safe when any timing is added. 

 

Gotcha on the 19.5's treadlife...I am still hoping I get great treadlife out of mine but so far it doesn't look like it. Towing on dirt roads is hard on tires, as it mountain towing on chip sealed roads. 

 

I am familiar with PA and 81.. I bet I would get a lot better tread life out there. I would also like the EGT performance it gives me at sea level. I can only imagine how high your EGT's would be if you were to tow at any elevation. 

 

Are you still running the stock manifold/turbo with the cam?

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For years, I ran my Smarty on SW5 default settings.It was a great combination of added power and torque;  and lower EGT's.

 

I could've run SW7 with default settings, but the EGT's were a bit warmer than I was liking.  I always tried to keep my EGT's under 1100*F on my Autometer gauges. 

 

My truck was a bit weird though.......................It would run cooler 65-70mph empty and towing vs. 55-60mph doing the same.  There are some really long grades here in southern and NW Illinois...........6-7%............and once MightyWhitey got spooled up, 900* was about as hot as she'd get.  I could LUG her and get 1200* quick, but EGT's with MightyWhitey were never a problem on the Interstates!!!

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Been running Edge on 5 with easy driving for a whole unloaded tank the last two weeks, 16.4mpg hand calc'd tonight. Up from 14.5-15 before, though I have reduced my highway driving speeds to 65 unloaded as well and I suspect that helps.

 

I am running stock everything aside from cam and tuner. I suspect my higher rpm EGTs may be small exhaust housing? Man, upgrading turbos seems like a slippery slope though... I am really just after a little grunt and mpg bump, though I am sure every sled puller starts there too. Bet I'd be happy with how it ran if Cummins could have tuned it without regard for emissions. Hence my inclination to just do the Jr. and be done.

 

We'll see how this goes... :)

 

http://newlondon.craigslist.org/pts/5769211858.html

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The small exhaust housing and huge increase in airflow from the cam will choke you down at higher rpms. 

 

If you want to spend a little bit of money and not go crazy on a turbo I highly suggest having your OEM turbo modified by turbo re-source and have a HE351VE turbine wheel put it. The compressor is a good one and the upgraded turbine matches it's flow much better. 

 

 

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Same NH trip this weekend, turned Edge down to level 3. Level 2 is 'tow', 3 is 'drive', but it feels like there is no noticeable improvement until 3. Used my foot to keep EGTs 1200 max with momentary bouts above until I backed off. Edge would say load was 60-70% load at 1200, and it definitely felt like I was leaving power on the table there but it did OK there so whatever. 10.5mpg, same as last trip. Only a couple trips left this year, but I won't go into next season without a Smarty. Will call Turbo Re-source as well about options to help open up the exhaust side of things, maybe do that over winter as well.

 

Edge EGT probe in 5/6 collector, Glowshift pillar gauge (maybe my problem) probe in manifold between 3 and 4. Pillar gauge reads 100-150* hotter under load and strangely 100* cooler when using a lower gear to help decel on longer hills with zero load. Any guesses as to what's going on there? Always though back cylinders ran the hottest.

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The weird quark with Edge Products is the timing typically is much greater on the higher levels. So yeah I know every suggesting against running high levels. Typically there is very little gains on lower levels like your finding out. The other factor is what sublevel your also using per main level. This will impact the fueling and timing maps too. After seeing a stock timing map from @AH64ID I would say you could use all the timing you could get. Running higher level but controlling everything by throttle can be safe as long as you watching the EGT's closely and giving some margin for error of the pyrometer. The problem is the lower tunes are less and less timing as you go down in main levels.

 

Know the improvements with Smarty I would look that direction personally for a better tune. Even EFILive is a good solution as well vs. Edge Products.

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I still wouldn't tow with an Edge product above 3 on a HPCR as there is a lot more going on up there than just timing. They run too hot up there for added timing. 

 

 

The 4-6 should be hotter than 1-3. Got a pic of where your two probes are exactly?

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Attached pic. Gauge reads 100-150* hotter between 3 and 4 than Edge does down in the collector. Wouldn't expect gasses to cool that much before hitting collector, especially since back runs hotter. Wondering if it's the cheap gauge.

 

egt.JPG

Edited by JPhauler87

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