2nd Gen Performance Woes

[OverToyed]

Hey guys - I could use some help.

 

I've done a ton of mods to this truck and I have two issues - plus I suspect I should be getting a lot more performance.

 

1.  Very difficult to start in cold weather.  If I don't have the block heater plugged in I get a ton of white smoke and it's very hard to start until the temp reading hits about 50.  This is with the Edge set on level zero.  Once it hits a certain temperature boom!  It's like a light switch and it runs great though it still smokes (whitish) while the extra fuel burns off.  Floor pedal does nothing until it runs, Edge says APP is reporting correct positioning.   I can hear the grid heater go 'clunk' when the key is turned on and I've checked the fuse.  Fuel is good and I've even added anti-gel though it isn't near cold enough for that to matter.

 

2. Pulling a load, uphill, 4th in lockup I get a shudder at about 1,800 RPM through about 2,100 RPM.  Does it worse under load though I can still feel it on a hill without a load.  I have a trans lockup switch installed and If I force it into lockup it makes no difference.  I can force it into third and force lockup and with the RPM boosted to about 2,200 the issue is very subtle to non-existent.  I suspect compression stall.  This seems to have started right after the Hamilton cam was added.

 

Other observations:  Heavy black smoke when starting from a stop sign regardless of edge setting.  MAP sensor is reporting pressure to the Edge (the edge is just an in-line insertion between the MAP and wiring harness) but if I disconnect the MAP completely it seems to make no difference to performance (I'm wondering if there's a break in the wiring harness and that's why it's over fueling).  No check engine light when first disconnected though after fooling with it a half dozen times I now have a CEL that won't clear.

 

Help, guidance, wisdom and 401k contributions gladly accepted.

[Me78569]

Are you the one Spencer sent over that is in Denver?

 

Please give us a list of mods.  I think he said DDP 120's for fuel?  And 3000 / 5000 compounds?  

 

Without mods we can talk about your smoke issue.   Whats the code you have now?  

 

Use the wiring diagram to check for breaks in the map wiring to the ecm.  

 

I am going to guess that the sense wire to the ecm has damage.   pin c of the map if you have an 01.

 

However being that you live in Denver you are going to have to deal with smoke unless you jump ship to the Quadzilla.   Larger than stock injectors means that you are going to be overfueled down low unless you can pull fueling.  

 

Unplugging the edge from the sensor just makes the Edge use 10 psi as it's setting. 

 

Edited January 24, 2017 by Me78569

[Hawkez]

Are you sure your grid heaters are working?

[Me78569]

@OverToyed

 

I did your sig for you, you can adjust it if you like. 

 

I would agree I would verify both grids are working,  you should be able to feel heat on the intake horn.  You could also have bad / worn injectors.  but my first guess would be grids.  Does your Wait to Start light stay on for the right period of time?  

 

 

2. have you asked Suncoast about your TC issues?  As always check for AC noise 

 

[OverToyed]

Yep!  Thats me!   I called Quadzilla yesterday to see about changing tunings since Edge is really designed for more conventional trucks.

 

I think the broken sensor wire is a good lead for me to try and run down.  It might explain the over fueling with the Edge if it assumes 10 Lbs boost if its not working right.   So far since the Edge was showing me good, functional boost readings I assumed that information was getting to the wiring harness - but maybe not.

 

I ran down signal noise issues for the TC pretty thoroughly.  I even installed the 'Sponge" from ATS just as a precaution.  The shudder seems to be dependent on boost and becomes an issue if extra fuel is added due to the load.  That's why I suspect compression stall but it just feels like I'm not making that much pressure at that point.

 

ATS thought the shudder issue was insufficient fuel from the stock VP44 so I installed the BD pump since I already had 200k on the stock anyway.  The cold start issue could have started here but since the Hamilton Cam was installed in the summer it may have only shown up once the weather cooled.

 

I do wonder if the mechanics who installed the cam botched something and that's where the shudder under load is coming from under load.

 

I'll stick a finger in the grid heaters but yes I do think they are working.  I can hear the big clunk when I turn the key on and the "please wait" light seems appropriate.  Fuse looks good too.

 

Mods:

SunCoast 650 HP Trans and 3d Torque Conv.
DDP ISB120 120 HP Fuel Injectors
BD1050127H BD Power VP44 Pump
Hamilton Cams 07-C-188/220 Camshaft
Hamilton Cams 07-T-001 1.5" Tappets
Hamilton Cams 07-S-003 Valve Springs
Hamilton Cams 07-P-004 Extreme Duty Pushrods
Hamilton Cams 07-S-004 Ultralight Retainers
ATS Compound 3000-5000 Turbochargers
4" Straight Exhaust
Mishimoto HD Radiator (Sucks)
FASS Titanium 150gph Lift Pump
Edge Juice w'Attutude CTS

 

Edited January 24, 2017 by OverToyed

[Me78569]

Thanks for the insight. 

 

The edge will only use 10 psi as the setting if it doesn't see boost, so if the edge is seeing it right then the isuse with the CEL needs to be between the edge and ECM.  known what the CEL is will help troubleshoot that.

 

 

So your shudder feels like a fuel shudder then, not a mechanical trans shudder?   It very well could be a timing issue causing it.   who knows what the Edge is asking for  they wont tell me haha.  

 

 

I would assume your hard start issue is a grid heater issue as it starts good when plugged in.  I would expect the same issues if the issue was elsewhere, but maybe not.  Check the grids and verify you are getting heat.  

 

 

 

Edited January 24, 2017 by Me78569

[TFaoro]

1 hour ago, OverToyed said:

Yep!  Thats me!   I called Quadzilla yesterday to see about changing tunings since Edge is really designed for more conventional trucks.

 

I think the broken sensor wire is a good lead for me to try and run down.  It might explain the over fueling with the Edge if it assumes 10 Lbs boost if its not working right.   So far since the Edge was showing me good, functional boost readings I assumed that information was getting to the wiring harness - but maybe not.

 

I ran down signal noise issues for the TC pretty thoroughly.  I even installed the 'Sponge" from ATS (who sucks) just as a precaution.  The shudder seems to be dependent on boost and becomes an issue if extra fuel is added due to the load.  That's why I suspect compression stall but it just feels like I'm not making that much pressure at that point.

 

ATS thought the shudder issue was insufficient fuel from the stock VP44 so I installed the BD pump since I already had 200k on the stock anyway.  The cold start issue could have started here but since the Hamilton Cam was installed in the summer it may have only shown up once the weather cooled.

 

I do wonder if the mechanics who installed the cam botched something and that's where the shudder under load is coming from under load.

 

Mods:

SunCoast 650 HP Trans and 3d Torque Conv.
DDP ISB120 120 HP Fuel Injectors
BD1050127H BD Power VP44 Pump
Hamilton Cams 07-C-188/220 Camshaft
Hamilton Cams 07-T-001 1.5" Tappets
Hamilton Cams 07-S-003 Valve Springs
Hamilton Cams 07-P-004 Extreme Duty Pushrods
Hamilton Cams 07-S-004 Ultralight Retainers
ATS Compound 3000-5000 Turbochargers
4" Straight Exhaust
Mishimoto HD Radiator (Sucks)
FASS Titanium 150gph Lift Pump
Edge Juice w'Attutude CTS

So I can help ya a little bit here.

In my experience the 188/220 DOES make it a little harder to start during the winter. However, it should not make it as hard as it sounds right now. I don't have my signature completely filled out yet, but trust me we have similar mods (including the cam)

 

I do see a big issue with the cam. Was piston protrusion and valve depth measured before installing the cam? I ask because the 188/220 is NOT a drop in like many think. In fact, I've never heard of an engine not needing work to make the cam fit. For me, I had to have the valves sunk deeper into the head to keep the pistons from slapping the valves. I know it's not what you wanted to hear.....

Now the "shutter" you are experiencing can be many things. I think your best bet is to get the edge reading boost correctly. From there you can diagnose other issues, but until then you're stabbing in the dark. 

 

Also where in Denver are you located? I'm over in Lakewood (Central/west Denver.) If I could at least ride in it I may have some more ideas on the issues you're experiencing. 

 

Lastly what year is the truck? I've got a smarty and a TST that aren't being used if you'd like to try one of those for diagnosing. 

[OverToyed]

Truck is a 99.

 

Yes, heads were re-done when cam, springs, rods and tappets were installed all at once to get proper clearance for that cam. ( Special order head gasket too).

 

Yes, I had to send a YouTube video to the mechanics to show how to replace the tappets without pulling the motor.

 

I'm just down in Parker (25 and Lincoln) and I work in Englewood at 25 and Arapaho.

 

The more I research the grid heaters the more that one is making sense,.  One guy posted that yes he can hear the relay thunk but it wasn't actually making contact so that's another one for me to run down.

Edited January 24, 2017 by OverToyed

[TFaoro]

15 minutes ago, OverToyed said:

Truck is a 99.

 

Yes, heads were re-done when cam, springs, rods and tappets were installed all at once to get proper clearance for that cam. ( Special order head gasket too).

 

Yes, I had to send a YouTube video to the mechanics to show how to replace the tappets without pulling the motor.

 

I'm just down in Parker (25 and Lincoln) and I work in Englewood at 25 and Arapaho.

 

The more I research the grid heaters the more that one is making sense,.  One guy posted that yes he can hear the relay thunk but it wasn't actually making contact so that's another one for me to run down.

Excellent! Glad to hear the head work was done properly. 

Now this special order gasket.... I'm assuming it's thicker than factory? That will decrease the compression ratio and can cause slightly harder winter starts. Not like you're experiencing but still a bit harder. 

 

The "thunk" you hear is actually the solenoids shutting off, so the solenoids could be working properly and the grid heater itself not working. 

 

Parker is where I bought my car yesterday haha. Yeah we should meet up on a weekend or something to go through some stuff. 

[OverToyed]

Let me check the obvious stuff now that I people have pointed out some things I should have checked but I was jumping at shadows and likely over complicated the problem.

 

[jlbayes]

White smoke can be a few different things but does it ever clear up? That cam is not in your best interest for the setup you have listed. Especially with the small compounds. When did the white smoke show up?

[OverToyed]

Starting issues showed up after the cam install but cam was installed in summer so no symptoms until I went camping in the rockies and the weather got cold.

 

I'm getting in touch with the mechanics that did the head work to find what thickness of head gasket they used.

 

I though I had a bead on the problem when I enabled the IAT monitor and saw the manifold air temp at a stead 5o degrees regardless of boost.  But, this morning, I intentionally didn't plug in the block heater.  I turned the key straight to start to see what the IAT would read without letting the grid heater warm.  The IAT read about 30 (28 degrees out) with a sudden burst to 300 degrees when first starting after  grid heaters warmed up.  Voltage draw kept battery levels at about eleven volts while trying to start mot motor.    Motor wouldn't run until water temp hit about 65 degrees from the plugged in block heater.

 

LOTS of smoke.  Yes, smoke does burn off after motor runs a few minutes.  I'm assuming there's unburned fuel in the exhaust manifold?

[TFaoro]

It's pretty normal for IAT to sit around 30* higher than ambient (on a warm motor) regardless of boost. 

Turning the key straight to start can cause hard starting as well because the lift pump pressure is too high. Not sure why (maybe @Mopar1973Man can help with that) 

 

If you let the grid heaters warm up does it start any better than not waiting on them?

 

The white smoke is probably just unburnt fuel from what it sounds like? It doesn't sit in the manifold, it just doesn't completely burn what's in the combustion chamber. 

 

Have you tried unplugging the edge other than the OBD port? It almost sounds like the edge is screwing up and making it do weird things. 

[Me78569]

Under timing maybe?   

Edited January 25, 2017 by Me78569

[OverToyed]

Yes. it does start better after grid heaters function but I wanted to test if the IAT was reading a false and that was shutting off the grid heaters.  It would seem not.

 

Me78569 - how would I check the timing?

 

I can put my finger on the outside of the grid heater and I can feel it get warm.  It's possible only one of the grids is working so I still have to test that.

 

But this hard starting stuff is a pain in the *** since I have to take my honda generator with me if I go camping in winter.

[Me78569]

Get a quad.  That's the only tuner that shows you timing.

[Mopar1973Man]

1 hour ago, OverToyed said:

But this hard starting stuff is a pain in the *** since I have to take my honda generator with me if I go camping in winter.

 

There is only two things required to start. Compression and fuel fired at the right time. Question, is do you have good compression in all cylinders cold? Also is your fuel pressure 7-12 during cranking? If higher it might cause issues starting. I know larger injectors don't atomize well in the dead cold so they can have hard start issues because of large droplets don't convert to vapor very well. 

 

On 1/24/2017 at 10:34 AM, OverToyed said:

I ran down signal noise issues for the TC pretty thoroughly.  I even installed the 'Sponge" from ATS just as a precaution.  The shudder seems to be dependent on boost and becomes an issue if extra fuel is added due to the load.  That's why I suspect compression stall but it just feels like I'm not making that much pressure at that point.

 

 

 

I would highly suggest you ditch that "noise Filter" and fix the alternator. Good, way to fry your ECM, PCM and VP44.

 

2 hours ago, OverToyed said:

The IAT read about 30 (28 degrees out) with a sudden burst to 300 degrees when first starting after  grid heaters warmed up.

 

 

First off, I don't even need grid heaters to start at +30*F. So if you having trouble at this warm of manifold points to compression and/or injector quality. Second off the IAT can only measure a maximum temp of 240*F. Beyond that its going to toss error codes. So I'm wondering how you measuring manifold temperature being even my truck never shows a burst or sudden increase. 

 

On 1/24/2017 at 9:22 AM, OverToyed said:

Very difficult to start in cold weather.  If I don't have the block heater plugged in I get a ton of white smoke and it's very hard to start until the temp reading hits about 50.

 

 

 

Again white smoke can be caused by... (Stanard FSM check list)

 

• Check for air in fuel system.
• Check for coolant leak into combustion chamber.
• Check for DTCs set or intermittent DTC malfunctions.
• Check for block heater malfunction in cold weather.
• Check for engine coolant temperature sensor malfunction.
• Check for ECM not calibrated properly.
• Check for clogged or defective fuel filter.
• Check for poor fuel quality.
• Check for fuel heater or fuel heater temperature sensor malfunction.
• Check for malfunctioning or loose fuel injector.
• Check for fuel injection pump malfunction.
• Fuel injector restricted or blocked fuel injection or supply lines.
• Check for fuel transfer pump malfunction.
• Check for Intake/exhaust valves not adjusted properly (tight).
• Check for intake manifold heaters or intake manifold air temperature sensor malfunction.
• Check for internal engine damage.

Typically it's going to lead back to weak compression (not enough compression heat to ignite the fuel) or the injectors or just so large in droplets the compression isn't enough to get the droplets to convert to vapor to go BANG! So I know you have done all these modifications cam, etc. But simple things could of be over looked and creating issues. 

 

[jlbayes]

This sounds typical of low compression. The cam reduces dynamic compression and the thicker head gasket will reduce both. Just my .02

[OverToyed]

Ok - head gasket is apparently stock thickness.

 

Possibly an injector malfunction?  Yeah, I know, jumping at shadows over here.

 

[Me78569]

Couple be.  It would be worth having them sent out and tested.  I am sure DAP would do it for a good price.