two cycle oil and?

[LT smoke]

Ok so most of us would agree that two cycle oil in the fuel for the vp44 is a good thing when mixed properly ....my question is can we mix other products in as well for other benefits like the powerservice products or Lucas oil or xdp?

[LiveOak]

I use Walmart Super Tech 2 stroke oil in the gallon container and Amalgamated TDR-S forumula during Summer: http://www.amalgamatedinc.com/tdr-s.aspx and TDR-WDA during Winter: http://www.amalgamatedinc.com/tdr-wda.aspx

[Mopar1973Man]

Actually I suggest against mixing...

Most all over the counter name brand products are a cetane booster type product. 2 Cycle Oil is a cetane reducer by nature. Lower the cetane the more BTU's are delievered by the fuel to the engine.

Point of reference that unleaded gasoline has a API gravity of around 50-55 and BTU content around 120... So more you drive cetane up the lower the amount of energy your creating with you fuel.

Very interresting to get a MSDS sheet of your favorite product and look over the chemical used in it and very very rare will you ever find a lubricant in a additive. Most are made from the common 3...

* Naptha (Coleman Fuel)

* Xylene (Common paint thinner sold at you local hardware store for about $8 bucks a gallon)

* Napthalene (Mothball - Yeah those nasty smelling little balls)

These are great for increasing the cetane of the fuel which it does. Also great for solvency for cleaning but look closely that most don't have a lubricant...

Also be very aware that there is a few of these chemicals that are cancer causing...

MSDS Sheets I've got... (Need to update this a bit more!)

http://mopar.mopar1973man.com/cummins/general/2-cycle-oil/msds/msds.htm

[white01]

i wished everyone could see the msds here..cause they don't think that the 2 cycle is an anti-gel.if someone wants to argue with a person ask them ...then why is the pour point -25*...nuff said:smart:

[LiveOak]

I think that chart lays out the btu content of the basic fuel stock with regards btu content. Adding a fuel additive to a fuel that raises the cetane value of a fuel stock, I don't think this reduces that fuel stocks btu content but lowers the ignition delay. Thus actually raising the quality of the fuel.

Cetane number is actually a measure of a fuel's ignition delay; the time period between the start of injection and start of combustion (ignition) of the fuel. In a particular diesel engine, higher cetane fuels will have shorter ignition delay periods than lower cetane fuels.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetane_number

[Mopar1973Man]

More tidbits...

Petroleum Distillates/Light Distillates

This category includes a long list of different ingredients. The one common trait, however, is that all of these ingredients are parts of, or "distillates" of raw, unrefined petroleum. Once petroleum goes through the distillation process, these ingredients are formed. When an additive states that it contains "petroleum distillates" on the MSDS, it is basically giving a vague, undescriptive reference to what is actually in it. Petroleum distillates can include solvents, paint thinners, motor oil, car wax, and many other household products. The most common types of petroleum distillates in additives include: mineral spirits, stoddard solvents, white spirits, and solvent naphtha.

Mineral Spirits aka Stoddard Solvent

Essentially, all of these are types of solvents and paint thinners. In most industries, mineral spirits are used for cleaning and de-greasing machinery. However, in the fuel additive industry, the main use of mineral spirits is to clean the fuel system. When an additive claims it is a "cleaner" it most likely contains some form of mineral spirits. Do not use additives that contain a large amount of mineral spirits. Ethanol is already a solvent, rendering the "cleaning" effect of mineral spirits useless and in some cases, detrimental. Too many solvents can strip away from the vital rubber seals and gaskets of the fuel system and cause premature fuel pump failure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spirit

Naphtha Solvents

Also known as Mineral Turpentine. Like mineral spirits, naphtha solvents essentially are solvents. They are commonly used as paint thinners and cleaning machinery. Much like mineral spirits, it is used in the fuel additive industry for its cleaning properties. Do not use additives that contain a high amount of naphtha solvents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naptha

Alcohols

The worst ingredient one can use with fuel. Some additives use alcohol for its ability to attract and combine water with fuel. Stay away from any additive that contains alcohol. Some common alcohols used in fuel additives include isopropyl alcohol, ethylene glycol, butyl alcohol, and hexanol.

Isopropyl Alcohol

Commonly used as rubbing alcohol - it is extremely solvent and dangerous for your engine. Some use it for its ability to attract and combine water.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isopropyl_Alcohol

Butyl Alcohol/Hexanol

Essentially another form of alcohol, this ingredient exhibits the same properties as the alcohols above and should never be used.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butyl_Alcohol

[ISX]

I need solid proof. Here is what I have come up with so far. Quart of 2 stroke and quart of all those chemicals that make up power service. Even with the addition of 2 stroke, you lose BTU.

Working on a Lubricity chart now..

[AH64ID]

Most all over the counter name brand products are a cetane booster type product. 2 Cycle Oil is a cetane reducer by nature. Lower the cetane the more BTU's are delievered by the fuel to the engine.

Increasing the cetane is actually a good thing, higher cetane means that the fuel ignites sooner, so you get a longer burn which produces more power off the same amount of fuel, just like a timing advance. I haven't seen anywhere that states you will get less power with a Cetane boost, all say the opposite, unless you get above the cetane number required by the mfgr. If 2-stroke drops the cetane number then you actually get less power out of it, since the fuel ignites slower.

[Mopar1973Man]

Increasing cetane will reduce BTU's one way or another...

Here I did this a while back... This is a local fuel station I ask for the specs on the fuel back in 2007 and this what I got from a local fuel station...

Dark green = #2 Summer Diesel

Light green = #2 Winterized Diesel

Where the lines cross in the cetane...

ASTM LABS GRADING SCALE

All I can say it give it a whirl... Use any brand of fuel and you'll come to the same answer...

[Mopar1973Man]

Here is my local chevron station... Just for fun I looked up the API of unleaded gasoline... At it average about 54...

[AH64ID]

Your posts are the only ones I can find that say the cetane decreases power output. I have spent lots of time looking today, and your posts are all I find that show a direct relationship between Cetane and BTU's. If more Cetane means less BTU's why does "Premium Diesel" run a much higher Cetane rating?The reason Cummins wants more Cetane with #1 is that in the winter the air is colder, and it needs to ignite quicker.

[Mopar1973Man]

This little graph was dropped on me by a guy that had access to the ASTM documents I wish I could get more of it... But everytime I plug everything into the chart I get the same answer... Take a premium diesel that 45-50 cetane always comes out with a lower BTU number... As for seeing this... I was a at a dyno event... Friend wanted to test the whole cetane booster vs 2 cycle oil... Needless to say cetane booster reduced his numbers (-20HP) and 2 cycle oil slight raised it (+10 HP)... Using a dual tank Cummins 97 truck. Same day... 3 different runs... * Straight diesel* 2 cycle oil (128:1 mix)* Popular Cetane Additive It was posted up on IBF.com till the site went down... Test was done in Meridian Idaho at Meridian Motorsports. I've only seen the test done once so there might be more to it... That's all I got to give...

[AH64ID]

I understand why your saying what your saying. I just can't find anything other than that chart to back it up.

[LT smoke]

:ahhh: so much for a simple answer any way looks like some intresting information ..apperently the power service and xdp additives are more for cleaning the fuel system is there a chance that the 2 cycle could plug the injectors? maybe running one of the solvent based additives say twice a year or once every quarter might b of benefiet?

[LiveOak]

Take a premium diesel that 45-50 cetane always comes out with a lower BTU number...

I think that right there is a key factor. IF our markets provided 45-50 cetane fuel standard across the board, there would not be near the need for diesel fuel additives. I know of NO place one can go to buy premimum 45-50 cetane diesel. In Europe, this is a standard and required for diesel to be 50 cetane. Here is the states we are lucky to get 40 cetane fuel. I think most of use use additives and/or 2 stroke oil not because of any scientific data proving its worth or need but because it is CHEAP insurance in the event the fuel is of a crappy quality. Crappy quality seems to be a plague sweeping across America at the moment.

[Mopar1973Man]

Ok... As for your 2 questions...

1. As for 2 cycle oil plugging injectors, or coking, etc. Nope... It just won't happen. Started using 2 cycle oil solely at 85K miles and currnetly at 172K miles (87K total) and no problems.

2. As for injector cleaners... I got a set of use injectors from a member here that had over 400K miles on them I tried a small can of seafoam to a tank of fuel the truck seem to improve for the tank then after the tank was done back to random misfire at idle while hot. So I took the injectors apart and phyiscally cleaned them by hand and found that you can soak the injectors in coleman fuel (which is naptha main ingredient of most injector cleaners) but it will not clean anything...

http://forum.mopar1973man.com/showthread.php/2023-Dirty-Injectors-Clean-them!

[AH64ID]

Ok... As for your 2 questions... 1. As for 2 cycle oil plugging injectors, or coking, etc. Nope... It just won't happen. Started using 2 cycle oil solely at 85K miles and currnetly at 172K miles (87K total) and no problems.

I want to add that shortly after I started using 2-stroke my exhaust brake wouldn't fully close at higher rpms, I had to depress the clutch to get it to close and get full back pressure. I quit using 2 stroke and it instantly got better, not 100% I think I need to pull it apart and clean it. I only ran 2 stroke for a few thousand miles at a lean 448:1. My soot in my tailpipe was also stickier while using 2 stroke. Lots of benefits from 2 stroke, but there can be negative side effects. Idle operations can cause incomplete combustion, which can lead to deposits.

[LT smoke]

ah64 while you were idleing for extended periods did you happen to go to a high idle or stay at the normal 850-1000 rpm range? just wondering if the high idle might have helped with cutting some of the build up looking like it will b nothing but 2 stroke for me so far ...one quart for every full tank fill up if i did the math correct ...right

[AH64ID]

ah64 while you were idleing for extended periods did you happen to go to a high idle or stay at the normal 850-1000 rpm range? just wondering if the high idle might have helped with cutting some of the build up looking like it will b nothing but 2 stroke for me so far ...one quart for every full tank fill up if i did the math correct ...right

I rarely idle for extended periods, and if I do the rpms are bumped up to 1100 (from 750), and if its cold out the EB is turned on to increase load and engine heat.

[LT smoke]

gotcha:thumb1: