Engine surging... at a loss here

[jimbochilds]

I'm new to posting here, but have been reading tons of threads, suggestions, and related story issues here over the past month and a half.  I am working on a friends 01 that I cannot seem to get figured out.  This started for him last fall with the truck having dead pedal issues, stuttering/miss, and a small hand full of codes.  I unfortunately don't have those codes to reflect on now, but the agreed upon synopsis was that the VP44 was on its way out so we made a plan to attack it this spring.  Back in April I installed a new VP44 from Bluechip Diesel along with the Airdog FRRP lift pump.  At this time I also installed 2 new Interstate Batteries.  The truck fired right up and ran like a dream, in the driveway.  I let it good a warm before taking it out for a test drive, and that is when the dreaded problem showed its ugly face and I CANNOT seem to bring resolve to it.  Heading down the road it ran like a dream for the first half mile, then it went into this weird buck/surge/sputter thing.  It did die once and was puffing blue smoke--bad.  I got it back to the house and started trying to figure it all out.  I put clear fuel hose in the system to watch for air bubbles.  Nothing.  Checked the plugs on the pump and even pulled the nut and checked the key way position, which was good.  I also checked the seal washers on all the banjo bolts and the fitting on the back of the head, which were good.  I had 3 codes; P0216, P0230, P0122.  I cleared those codes and tried to drive it again.  Again it started and ran beautifully in the driveway, but once heading down the road, trouble. The good in it was the codes did not come back. 

 

Next I chased all the grounds and even did the ground mod mentioned several times on this site.  Had the alternator tested at two different parts stores.  That checked out good.  Again the truck fires right up and runs like a dream in the drive.  Idles perfectly, revs up and will hold steady where ever i put it on the tach. No hiccups or any funny business.  Start to drive and the gremlin comes out.  This time I made it about a mile and a half before it starts acting up.  If I hold my foot steady on the throttle it surges/sputters/ puffs bluish black smoke and acts like it wants to die.  Sounds like a two stroke boat motor is the best sound explanation I can come up with.  At the end of this round of troubleshooting and test drive I come up with a P1689 code.  I took out the fuel system relay and checked for a good ground there on pin 85.  Again I checked the alternator for A/C noise and had a .025 reading so think that is within limits of being good.  I have cleaned all the battery clamps/cables and connections for corrosion with baking soda and distilled water.  Checked and rechecked grounds.  I pulled the ECM and cleaned the contact points on both the box and the engine block to ensure a good clean contact ground.  No Change.

 

Yesterday I had a friend come over who has the same essential truck (2001, 2500 Automatic Trans, 4x4, etc) and I put the ECM out of the problem truck into his truck to verify my suspicion that the ECM had to be my bad/weak link.  I struck out on that one.  We ran/drove the truck for a half hour and could not duplicate the problem.  After that I reinstalled the ECM back into the truck and tried to drive it only to have the same results.  This time I got a CEL and the code was P0122.  I cleared it and drove it again and it didn't come back on.  I have done the APPS reset (pressing the pedal and releasing slowly) each time I have had the batteries disconnected.  I am at a total loss here at this point.

 

I should mention that the truck has a couple ABS codes (67 Pump motor circuit open and 65 Internal main relay open) and the owner told me last week that he had new 100 horse injectors put in about 5 years ago.  Could this be a turbo waste gate issue or maybe bad o-rings on an injector or connector tube giving me these fits?

 

ANY help is greatly appreciated.

 

Jimbo

[dripley]

Is the key for the pump installed pointing the right direction? Have you spoken with Blue Chip about it? Could possibly be a bad pump. How is the fiel pressure from the lift pump?

Edited May 29, 2020 by dripley

[jimbochilds]

So as far as the key way and oriented the right direction, I am almost certain since I did not remove it from the slot when I received it from Blue Chip.  I looked at it to verify it was seated firmly and used an orange paint pen to paint the end of it to be able to see it clearer in the inspection mirror prior to installing the washer and nut.  Doug at Blue Chip has been absolutely awesome with help.  I don't have a gauge for the fuel pressure to know for sure.  It is a brand new FRRP and appears to be pumping fuel like a crazy man.  I am actually going to pull the pump this weekend and send it in to have the team at Blue Chip check it out.  I should suggest to the owner that we install a fuel pressure gauge to know for sure what our pressures are looking like.

 

Thanks for the reply.  I do appreciate it very much.

 

Jimbo

[dripley]

The inlet on the VP has a test port to check the pressure. Just asimple schrader valve. Factory anyway. Most auto parts store will loan them for a deposit.

 

The key has an arrow on it that points to the front IIRC. Next time you speak to BC you might ask what the symptoms would be if it is backwards.

[jimbochilds]

Thanks for the tip.  Sorry for the delay in responding.  I now have a fuel pressure gauge test kit in my tool arsenal.  For now, I have pulled the pump and sent it back to Doug at Blue Chip to test the computer on the pump.  The key way was in the correct way, so with everything checked and checked again on this end, Doug recommended sending it in for them to check out.  Practice is defiantly improving my VP44 removal skills.  Had that puppy off in just under 30 min.  Waiting to hear if they find anything on the bench.  Will post back when I get a report.

 

Jimbo

[Mopar1973Man]

Do keep in mind Blue Chip does sell pumps with used PSG units. 

 

DAP on the other hand sells VP44 with only NEW PSG units. Typically lower price than Blue Chip.

[jimbochilds]

Well I got the pump back from Blue Chip.  No discrepancies found in the pump, anywhere.  I thought I'd take a look at the wiring between the pump control module and the ECM just to be certain before I reinstalled the pump and things are nice and open.  Looking at the DTC P1689 testing, I got down to the step 6 "Ensure ignition is off an FPCM harness connector and ECM harness connector are still disconnected.  Using a DVOM, measure resistance between ground and terminal No. 2 (white wire) on FPCM connector. If resistance is 5 ohms or greater, go to next step.  If resistance ins less than 5 ohms, repair short ot ground in white wire between FPCM and ECM."

 

At this point, I get nothing.  Now I am opening up the harness and looking.  Does this tie into the G100 under the left battery?  I had to quite for the night as I started digging into that corner.  I'm hoping I might have stumbled onto the right track to getting this truck out of my driveway and back to my buddy.  Any thoughts?  I sure do appreciate the time you all take to help out.

 

Respectfully,

Jimbo

[Tractorman]

It doesn't look like that #2 white wire goes to ground.

 

- John

 

 

 

Edited July 2, 2020 by Tractorman
Misunderstood question

[jimbochilds]

Hey John,

Thanks for the help this FSM figure.  I appreciate it

 

Jimbo

[Tractorman]

@jimbochilds,  I just edited my last response and replaced the photo with an electrical diagram showing the wire that you were working with (I think).

 

- John

Edited July 2, 2020 by Tractorman

[jimbochilds]

Well its all back together.  The G102 grounds all checked out and in good shape.  Bad news, the darn truck still has the gremlin living within it, somewhere.  Upon getting it back together and running again, I put the fuel pressure test gauge on it and had it at 22 PSI on idle.  When I ramped it up the fuel pressure went down rather quickly.  Went all the way down to zero with the RPM's at 3000.  Came back up rather quickly but give it any throttle at all and it would dive down.  This made me think I had a restriction somewhere so yesterday I dropped the tank and did some cleaning.  The "sock" on the bottom of the fuel module was really nasty with dirt and slime, complete with a good size tear.  I also found what looked to be 3 seperate tops, like off of a bottle of injector cleaner.  Thought I found the problem.  I put it all back together, and installed a new fuel filter for good measure.  With it all back together today, it started right up after cycling the lift pump three times.  When the pump was priming the fuel pressure gauge went all the way up to 28 psi, so I turned it down to about 18 before I started it.  When she did start the pressure fell right down to 0 while running.  I shut it down and checked all my fittings/connections.  All looks good.  After walking away for a couple hours, I went back and just bumpped the key and she fired right up so I'm not loosing prime.  This time I let it run and after idiling for about 3 min it stumbled and died.  Long crank to restart and got a P1689 code.  Any takers for new possible ideas?  I really have not felt so defeated in a really long time.

 

Thanks all for the help and advise.

 

Respectfully,

Jimbo

[livewire]

Jimbo, I had all kinds of problem like this, I found out I had gotten about 10 gals of gasoline in my fuel from a truck stop when I topped off, fuel would separate out and diesel would settle to the bottom, it would fire up and it would run great until the fuel started mixing up and then it would get a gremlin, I drained the fuel tank, and filled it with fresh fuel, ran like a sewing machine. Had my VP44 back to Thoroughbred diesel twice, they were great about it though. search my threads, you will find it.

[Tractorman]

1 hour ago, jimbochilds said:

really have not felt so defeated in a really long time.

 

I feel your pain.  At this point I would rig up a fuel line and connect one end to the suction side of the lift pump.  Connect the other end to a five gallon container of fresh diesel - and see what happens.  It may be informative.  If the engine runs fine and the fuel pressure is stable, then you likely have a severe restriction between the lift pump and the tank.  If the symptoms don't change at all, then you could have a severe restriction between the lift pump and the gauge connection.

 

You also mentioned a "a good sized tear in the sock".  You could have large items lodged anywhere in the fuel line up to the lift pump.

 

- John

Edited July 9, 2020 by Tractorman
I had another thought.

[jimbochilds]

Lots of attempts as still LOTS of frustration.  I have spent 20+ hours on this thing, thrown parts at it that I was sure HAD to be the problem only to still have the same junk going on.  Since my last post, I have pulled the tank back down and check all the connections hoses, tubes, o rings, the vent, etc.  I had some help two weeks ago where we took the lift pump out, fed it from a can of fuel into a bucket.  At first it was passing lots of air and running loud.  This is how it had run since my initial install.  After dorking around with it for  couple hours the air seemed to be gone and was pumping a solid stream and was running a whole lot quieter.  It was then installed on the truck.  Bypassed the filter and still ran it out of the gas can, with the return line going it the truck tank.  Was able to set the fuel pressure to a solid 18psi and the truck was running smooth.  Put the filter back into the system.  I installed a new drain valve and o rings at this time.  It started and ran smooth with the pressure holding at 18 psi at idle an dropping down to 12-14 when I ramped it up to 3k.  It would recover quick when the throttle was released.  Hooked it back into the truck fuel tank and problem returned.  I rigged up a longer fuel line from the inlet side of the lift pump to the 5 gal can in the back of the truck.  Fired right up, held pressure and for the first time since this saga began, I was able to drive my 2 mile loop test drive with ZERO issues.  This made me believe that the problem had to be in the module.  I ordered a replacement module, new fittings and 3/8 fuel line to go from the tank to the lp thinking I had it nailed.  Woke up this morning and dropped the tank, swapped the fuel line and module.  Zip tied the new hose in several places to keep it from slipping around and put new seal washers on the banjo.  The truck fired up and ran about 5 min, maintaining 18 PSI then just lost pressure and died.  I checked the lift pump and had nothing.  I pulled out my test pigtail and hot wired the pump to the battery and got my pressure back and fired it up.  Ran great for about another 5-7 min and repeat.  I checked the hoses, fittings and connections.  All looked good so I bled the line and got it going again.  This time I let it run for one hour in the driveway.  The pressure would fluctuate between 20 and down to about 12.  After an hour I tried to drive it around my 2 mile loop only to loose all pressure and it died maybe a 1/4 mile out of the drive.  Was a royal pain to get restarted and died 2 more times before I could get back in the shop.  Now It will not build/hold any kind of pressure.  I am so frustrated.  I basically have put a new fuel system on this truck from the fuel tank to the injectors.  I have 12-15 gal of fuel in the tank.  Could a injector be the cause of this endless night mare?  ANY final suggestions?  I am about to the point of putting this on a trailer and hauling it to a shop.  I just don't know what else to do.

 

Sorry for the LONG post, but thanks in advance to all who read it and may have something to offer.

 

Respectfully

Jimbo

[Haggar]

Jimbo,

 

You don't mention what lift pump you are running and how it is connected.

 

The reason I say this....  I ran into a similar issue not long ago.  I still had one of the original o-ring quick connect fittings in the system.  This would randomly allow  air to enter.   I also changed pumps.  I do think the pump was allowing air to enter.  I still have the old pump hoping to set up a test loop and see if i could catch it sucking air.

 

anyway, since i replaced the pump and that last quick connect, I have not had a problem since.

 

HTH

Hag

[Mopar1973Man]

3/8" fuel line is too small for pressure stability. Need to upgrade to full 1/2" plumbing to get the pressure stable. I'm set for 17 PSI at an idle only drop to 15 PSI at 3,000 RPM WOT. I can cruise 82 MPH at 2,500 RPM and still hold 17 PSI. Running 150 HP injectors (7 x 0.010) and 180 HP Quadzilla tuner. Running all JIC compression fittings and Parker Push lock fittings, never once had an air issue.

 

I'm also curious what lift pump? (AirDog FRRP)

Is there a draw straw in the tank or fuel basket? (Most likely hooked to the stock pickup in the tank)

 

I'm running the full AirDog 150 (with the 165 Pump installed). First pump lasted 13 years 250k miles. I'm on my technical second pump. There was a another pump in there a 3rd Gen AirDog pump which failed in month and about 7k miles. Not counting. I'm full 1/2" plumbing from tank to VP44. AirDog FRRP are more or less junk being the pump is too far forward and sucking fuel too far. Needs to be closer to the fuel tank and upgraded to 150 to 165 pump. Volume stability needs 1/2" plumbing from tank to VP44. Need to ditch the banjo bolts. 

 

Another reason why the FRRP is not a good choice it has the same problem that the stock pump does. The distance from the tank and also if the pump dead heads it will cavitate. Like all the other AirDog pump have a 3 hose head back to the tank return line. This prevents this problem since the pump never dead heads. This why I will suggest the full AirDog. 

As for FASS I will "not" suggest being out here lot of the county boys have learned quickly. If FASS reduce there over all size it would be a better pump for sure then bring back the short bed bracket. My AD 150 is tuck in behind the transfer case and the skid plate guard the filters and the transfer case keeps the snow off the filters and pump.

1. FASS pump are known to gel faster than an AirDog. Typically the filter hanging down in the sling path of the tires and covers over the pump with snow and ice.

2. The since 99% of all install the filters hang down below the bottom of the frame they can be struck easily when off road. Since this happen too. Leaving you stuck till you buy new filters.

 

All 1/2" plumbing. Only 2 PSI fall from idle to WOT.

Edited August 3, 2020 by Mopar1973Man

[jimbochilds]

So I installed an Airdog FRRP 100, in the stock location up on the block.  When I had my 02 Dodge many years ago I had done similar to your setup, only with the FASS pump.  This truck not being mine,  I didn't have the luxury to make the decision on an upgrade to that level.  A lot has changed in the 10 years since I did the fuel upgrades on my old truck so I went with the pump I did this go around at the recommendation from Blue Chip when I bought the VP44 pump.  

 

To answer the question about fittings and plumbing, I put a new quick click, stock style, fitting on a new rubber hose  and a barbed banjo on the other end going into the lift pump thinking that an o ring might be the problem.  And yes, I just installed an new fuel basket style fuel module, real close to the stock set up.

 

I called Pure Flow yesterday and spoke to them about the lift pump and they quickly said they would send me a new pump.  No questions asked really.  I am praying that this will solve the issue and get the truck going.  Might not be the best setup, but should get him back down the road.

 

Thanks again for all the advise and suggestions.  I really do appreciate it.

 

Jimbo

[Mopar1973Man]

I would never use a FRRP pump. First off the stock line size is too small for that pump. Enhanced wear. Pump is too far from the tank. Pumps are not design to pull fuel long distance. Then the pump has no return line so when it dead heading with low flow it cavitation creating air or foam in the fuel.

 

Typically suggest full AirDog or full FASS. More so AirDog since FASS pumps tend to gell up fast out here vs. my AirDog.

[Haggar]

Mike,

The FRRP does not "dead head".  It has an internal regulator that returns the excess flow above which is needed to maintain the set pressure to the inlet of the pump.   It works similar to your bigger pump, except it is returned to the inlet of the pump vanes, not going directly back to the tank.

 

 Long periods of "dead heading" the outlet from the pump would cause the temperature to rise more quickly in the FRRP than yours because yours would have to heat the whole tank, and this would only have to heat the fluid right around the pump.  But we should never run at a dead head situation.  (the lift pump is tied to a running motor.  an idling motor still has flow both through the injectors and the pump case drain.)   

 

Getting closer to the tank is nice.  It reduces the NPSH, and with as much fuel as your pump flows, it helps being that close.  But as long as your inlet loss is less than the NPSH needed by the pump, there should not be a problem. 

 

Hag