99 auto immediately after refreshed injectors stalls when placed in D or R

[dripley]

The spray pattern of the nozzles make a difference too. That seems to be problem with some. I also bought a new set a RV275's for my first injector change and was very happy with them. That is a good price your link advertise. IIRC I paid about $360 for my set about 12 years ago.

[JoeMcCaz]

I was surprised at the cost and free delivery too. Just hope they are good for testing to see if truck still stalls. At this point, and I hate to say this as I've always tried to buy the best & made in America, "I don't give a rat's anal orifice if they were made on the moon out of the rat's teeth as long as they work for testing"

[JoeMcCaz]

Well unfortunately I can't upload a video (guess it's too big?) so I'll have to explain, gads...

Over the past few days, since I stupid misread a post on another site and disconnected the batteries with the truck running and it stalled BTW now I know 2 things 1-don't disconnect the batteries with the truck running and 2-don't disconnect the batteries with the truck running...

Since the alternator was out, I took it to have it bench test and was ok, I decided to pull the harness from the alt side to the vp side and inspect.

I methodically removed the tape and spring loom on wire (mess) harness bit by bit, inspecting wires then re-taping each section as I went.

All was good.

Since I had wires revealed I decided to do the wrap in foil, wrap in insulating tape and then regular e-tape over the large lead from the alt I've heard about for years - even though I've had the DTT noise suppressor thing from the time the original (1st built) trans was done - you know "just because I was there". Oh, decided to do the same (foil, insulation tape, regular e-tape) to the 2 wires from the APPS to as far down the harness as I was willing to go.

I was concerned that I screwed the ECM or PCM or both up with the disconnect batteries while running thing and wanted to make sure at least the wiring was good, before I reinstalled the alt. Which everything looked to be sold, no fried wires, insulation solid etc.

Reinstalled the alt, connected the batteries and went for it = this would have been better if I was able to load a video here...

Turned key to on, transfer pump normal psi, wait to start out, turn key and she fired right up "Thank God" apparently I didn't fry anything. A bit colder today so after grid heater went off I put in R to see if it would stall, didn't stall but (as been the whole thing since installing refreshed injectors etc., etc. had been if it didn't stall) the idle abruptly dropped and then just as abruptly rose and settled in. BTW I noticed the idle is actually closer to 800 than I originally stated at 850. But it is still fluctuating rpms about 5-10 up and down while idling be it in or out of gear. 

 

Awaiting the new "test" injectors from Dale's to arrive and then we should be able to tell if the stall/almost stall deal is or isn't related to the Flux injectors...

 

Stay tuned...

[dripley]

All that foil wrapping and such you mention is not needed as long as the electrical system is working properly. It will hide the real problem which is most likely to much AC voltage from the alternator. I you did not have them test the Alt for stray AC voltage that could be part of your problem. 20+ years and 530k on mine with no foil or other things needed. Went thru some times with electrical gremlins but getting my electrical system in shape was the best thing I ever did to rid myself of them.

[Mopar1973Man]

Absolutely true. Do the W-T ground wire mod and do the PCM protection fuse and most of your problems will go away. Skip all the noise filter mods, tin foil the charge lead, etc. Yank all that stuff off and just do the W-T ground mod once done that problem is over for a lifetime. 

[JoeMcCaz]

4 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Absolutely true. Do the W-T ground wire mod and do the PCM protection fuse and most of your problems will go away. Skip all the noise filter mods, tin foil the charge lead, etc. Yank all that stuff off and just do the W-T ground mod once done that problem is over for a lifetime. 

Sorry if I missed the W-T ground wire mod and the PCM protection fuse you mention.

Can you PM so as not to clog this thread, unless you think it'll help someone else down the line - the links to the two (W-T & PCM fuse) mods. Thanks for side note on drag and drop I tried and realized the file was in excess of 100 MB was why I couldn't attach. But I've take some shorter videos, will make sure they're less than 100MB and post up, if need be in several posts within this thread of course.

 

Thanks so much for your help thru this mess 

Going to attach some videos over the next several posts - assuming you can drag drop multiples as long as total is under 100MB - here goes...

 

Appears to have worked this should be videos posted 1 of 4

1st below @ 7:53 AM, 2nd below @ 7.57, last below @ 759.

2 of 4  NOT!!!

NOTE: I tried this immediately after above (1 of 4) but for some reason first 2 of 3 videos failed to load not sure why as they all totaled under 100MB? 

I closed site and now opening to try same (sequential time wise) 3 video that failed prior. Here goes...

Well that didn't work out either

Message that came up.

Sorry, an unknown server error occurred when uploading this file.

(Error code: You can only upload a total of 21.84 MB.)

 

Going to have to try to trim the 23.8mb file down. 

 

Interestingly in videos within post 1 of 4 (above) the first file size is like 29.1 and it took just fine????

 

Will have to jump off a bit and come back later today or tonight, got outside work to get house ready for closing to do. You know "priorities of what must be done" take precedence over those "you want to get done".

A little thing called life.

 

Hope I can figure out and get back later

Edited April 16, 2021 by JoeMcCaz

[IBMobile]

Get a You Tube account and up load the videos to it.  Next put a link to your You Tube video on the forum and your done.

[Tractorman]

On 4/11/2021 at 5:14 AM, JoeMcCaz said:

From the in dash tack, whatever the lines mean between the numbers, the idle has always been the same be it 800 or 850.

 

 

The lines are important.  Each graduation is 125 rpm - rather stupid in my opinion.  Watching your video, I see the tach needle just below the 750 rpm graduation mark on your truck.   800 rpm would look more like the photo below.  Just took the photo using my truck.

 

 

- John

 

 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Tractorman

[JoeMcCaz]

Yea, stupid indicator marks for sure. ½ way between 500 and 1000 is 750. Now that I think about it, and with you picture that is where it idled...before i sent my Mach 5s for refresh (and Flux sending me newly built ones) mess.

Hope the new RV275s (test injectors) make it idle like it should. If so then I'll be talking with Flux. If not I'll be more bald than I am now as I continue scratching my head trying to resolve stalling...

[Mopar1973Man]

I don't rely on the tach on the cluster to report accurate RPM data. The needle is nothing more than a stepper motor. It will flick up and down depending on value. Should use a live data tool and get actual nAnother you can try is double check valve lash on the head. I've seen a few times wherumbers. 

 

Listening to the video of start up the batteries are weak and possibly a brush out on the starter starter is slow. Should spin much faster. Then the check gauge light and the voltage was low in the first video. Address this too, this is where the bad alternator diodes come from is the heavy load on the system and the batteries are weak.

 

 

[JoeMcCaz]

M73M voltage low in video was due to grid heater just cycling off, present set of batteries were new in fall 2020 and volt at 12.8 after sitting for days before starting (always replaced both at the same time over the years) after starting and running a bit the grid heaters off the volt gauge returns to normal (typically displays over 14v).

Not questioning or challenging you, just sharing information not provided verbally in the video. As for the alternator, I will do the test mentioned in previous replies at some point, crazy time right now as I have a decent amount of work to do moving to new house and getting things at old place ready for closing on May 13th, so at this point I can drive the truck unfortunately as it is, but I have to keep priorities towards the houses as I move thru each step.

As for using a live data tool, I don't have one, however trans builder, who is 6 hours away from me, did have one and used it after he installed the newly built injectors (he has Chrysler software - whatever they'd use in dealer shops and keeps current updates maintained) and it still stalled, but didn't have the before intermittent funky start (funky start not mentioned in this thread until now as after install of newly built units it didn't happen anymore. So, funky start was happening maybe every 1 in 5 starts or so, it would "intermittently" start up like just after you've installed a new set of injectors and there was a bit of air in the pump to injector lines - it would "rump, rump, rump" until you hit the go pedal to increase rpms then smooth right out) so after using live data device he reported to me that all sensors where good and to his surprise even when it would stall looking at live data nothing appeared? 

NOTE: 

-The "newly built" Mach 5 injectors supplied by Flux were intended to eliminate the previously refreshed Mach 5's I installed as the reason for stalling immediately after installing the refreshed Mach 5's.

-I know with long threads things tend to get a bit hazy so let's remember that I bought my original Mach 5's 15 years and 140k or so ago from Flux - at the time known as Formula 1 Injectors - and never had any problems over the years. 

 

So at this point right now I've been online for too much time and need to get my focus back to the house stuff.

 

I will add that I had totally forgotten about the whole You Tube account thing and will try to post up link the time I can take away from house stuff.

 

All - Thank you for your efforts to help me resolve the issue and I'm confident at some point it'll get resolved and we'll all (hopefully) know the what's and why's.  

Here are links to You Tube videos should be clickable... My head is spinning and at least I think it all worked.

 

Hopefully these videos will better describe the situations all of these were from yesterday and the times in the titles.

I must apologize for cursing in some of the videos, you can sense the frustration. Enjoy.

1st - 

2nd - 

3rd - 

4th - 

5th - 

6th - 

7th - 

8th - 

9th - 

 

[Mopar1973Man]

Remember depending on the torque converter and stall speed it can pull it down. I've seen torque converters fail that are excessively tight and almost have to hold throttle up to get into gear without stalling. If the injectors check out and the idle speed is close to 800 in park then your fine on the fuel side. Now you have to look into the transmission side. 

[JoeMcCaz]

Thanks M73M, appreciate your continued replies and support.

 

All, I know this thread and those on other forums are long and even I have to think about info I've included and check to see if I left anything out.

In this (note on torque converter) I think I failed to mention a few things;

1- after I recieved my Mach 5's from being refreshed by Flux and stalling started immediately after installing, I sent truck to guy that built trans and Flux sent him a newly built set of Mach 5's, which after installing truck still stalled. Builder too though old torque converter was cause, "even though no problem pre-install of refreshed injectors there were no stalling issues. He pulled pan, valve body and R band down to metal. I had my DTT trans (originally built circa 03-ish and about 140k ago) totally rebuilt late Feb early Mar this year. Included in trans build - triple loc converter (builder said he had converter stall set 200 rpm less on the bottom end), billet flex plate & input shaft, all new friction materials, etc. as well as electronics and wiring. Still stalled.

2- new VP. No problem with the 12 year old previous VP but original went after 10 years old with about 130k miles so he installed new Standard Output VP that I bought from Thoroughbred and had shipped to him.

 

All above being done and said, I'm hoping the new (allegedly not remanufactured) RV275s arrive today and as soon as i can R&R the present stalling/almost stalling is no longer present. Hopefully this works, then I go back to Fulx for their analysis...

Wish me luck...

[JoeMcCaz]

Got the RV275, cheapo, god knows what planet they were made on, "TEST" injectors installed Saturday. Ain't saying a word other than the video links below tell the tale.

https://youtu.be/E2QJYMGLgxw

https://youtu.be/TUeDafx6jSY

https://youtu.be/tw6YB0ehHuE

Will keep all posted as to reply from Flux.

[hdpwipmonkey]

Kind of hard to dispute those results...

[Mopar1973Man]

Yup... That shows the that the RV275s are closer to the mark of flow and balance. With performance injectors most of them built them and set them lower at 300 to 305 bar. I've had posted once before that when another member had a set of 100 HP injectors and the stalling issues. When the injectors where pulled at 28k miles and tested the pop pressure was 280 bar. This is about 13 bar below minimum allowed. Once the injectors where re-popped and flow matched again but the member here had them popped at 325 bar and the entire issues was gone. 

[JoeMcCaz]

Here's the reply from Flux. 

 

"My apologies Joe, I was suppose to forward this to you from Don last week:

 

We checked the opening pressure on the inj returned from Joe. Basically 295 bar on all 6.   I suggest we lower that to 280 across all 6 and send those to him.  I believe this is the last step we can take to increase the idle quantity and to help prevent stalling."

 

What they're suggesting is opposite of what you've experienced?  Not questioning you for sure. From prior communication with Fulx (after sending chart you provided, with pop off and leak down BAR info) they said due to method they use making tips they can't set BAR to stock?

 

Your thoughts are greatly appreciated. 

[Mopar1973Man]

2 hours ago, JoeMcCaz said:

they said due to method they use making tips they can't set BAR to stock?

 

Because the nozzle most likely is smaller so they decrease the the pop pressure to increase flow and injection happens early. So to make it flow like X sized injectors they decrease it to get more lift. 

 

Like my old 7 x 0.0085 (+75 HP) I had DAP make them and they where popped at 305 bar with SAC tips. Stalling was very common. Come to a traffic light or stop sign it would drop and stall. I had the injectors sent back changed for VCO tips same size and increased to 310 bar. Stalling stopped. 

 

My current 7 x 0.010 (+150 HP) I had my stock bodies inspected and then installed the nozzles and popped them back to 320 bar. Still running these injectors. No issues at all. With the bar set for 320 bar I need to add more timing being they do fire a bit late.

 

[JoeMcCaz]

M73M, thanks. So in your opinion what Flux is proposing makes sense. I do believe their nozzles have more orifices than typical. 

 

I'll take them up on their proposal and hope it works. Kinda sucks when you're used to a certain power level for almost 2 decades and then all of a sudden you're down 150hp & 300tq. I got spoiled for sure. Getting a bit tired of changing injectors, but if this works, at my 62 years young, I'll never need to do it again, if it needs injectors at some point later I'll have someone do it for me. 

 

Thanks all. Will update. 

[Mopar1973Man]

If your close to me I can change injectors in about an hour or so. More than willing too.