Fuel in Oil, not sure what to do!

[YeaImDylan]

Hey all, I am back again sadly for more problems.

 

I'll tell the backstory and all symptoms I'm having. Was headed home yesterday and check gauges light came on. Had oil pressure but noticed voltage was not reading. Parked the truck and shut it off and saw there was fluid leaking in front of the engine. Popped the hood and the belt came off and I assume it knocked the catch can (tbh I haven't emptied it and I've owned the truck for over a year) Noticed there was fuel in the fluid (oil) leaking and I smelled raw diesel. Checked the oil and there was sure as **** fuel and a damn good amount. Forums seems to say it's either injectors, crossover tubes, or the seal on the VP44. One thing I noticed only yesterday was when I'd go back to idle while rolling in neutral, RPM's would sit at like probably 900 (the line right before 1000) and then after a few seconds it would go down to it's normal resting spot (noticeable noise in the idle so it wasn't just the gauge reading higher). I'm at a loss of what to do with this damn truck. With this new issue, I'm tempted to just find a lower mileage 24v and swap it in myself because I need to replace my head too due to an ear breaking off for the plenum holes. Also noticed yesterday morning before the belt came off that there was vapor coming from the crankcase tube, which I hadn't noticed a few days before. Truck may have some blow by out the valve cover but its not pluming like a steam engine...

One thing to add with the idle thing, tuner is currently not hooked up completely so it's running off the ECM solely. Also, no check engine light for any of this.

One more thing to add, there was fuel on the injector line nut at the VP closest to the block.. Shop retightened all of them 2 weeks ago. Would this be possibly from the vp seal leaking and running out and getting that wet? As well as dumping fuel into the timing case? Or is that line possibly just shot and I need new lines.

 

If anyone has any other questions and want me to clarify things, I will be happy to answer!

 

Thank you,

Dylan

Edited January 21, 2022 by YeaImDylan

[Mopar1973Man]

Places for fuel to enter the oil...

• Injector body o-rings
• Cracked head
• Bad injectors (wore out or stuck open).
• VP44 front seal failed (excessive fuel pressure)

 

So that being said. How many miles on the injectors if there is over 100k miles on them time to replace. If the injectors have that much mileage on them it very possible for the body o-ring to be seeping fuel back up in the top of the head. If you had 20+ PSI fuel pressure its possible to blow out the VP44 shaft seal. I know people here will tell of stories of being between 20 to 30 PSI with no issues but it does happen to blow out possibly on a weak or wore seal. The high idle shows me the injectors are wore out and popping to early and lower in pop pressure. So that would be my first thought is to change injectors or at least have what you got tested and re-popped to stock 310 bar again. Bottom line is 293 bar and thing start getting well sloppy injector wise. 

[YeaImDylan]

When I swapped setups with a guy he said he had just done the injectors with the newer and bigger turbo and they had probably less than 10k on them. We did new seals and all that jazz too when we did them. I got his stock size crossover tubes as well. Yesterday was the first time I had ever noticed the idle hanging above normal and then dropping down after a few seconds. Fuel pressure is a constant 14 psi, WOT lowest it sometimes goes is 12 psi. I'm hesitant to put new injectors in because if that's not the problem then I'm changing the oil again and I'm out the money I just spent on injectors. If you remember my other post about my broken intake plenum ear on the head, after yesterday I'm not considering going and getting a lower mileage engine out of a wrecked truck nearby and just swapping that in with a new set of higher hp injectors and probably studding it as well.

 

Also, if it were the injectors due to one extra symptom hinting at them (higher idle for a few seconds), wouldn't I have a lot of excess smoke? or a haze at idle?

Edited January 22, 2022 by YeaImDylan

[Mopar1973Man]

Typically low pop pressure typically hangs higher than the standard 800 RPM. The only other thing then is injector body o-rings. If you go that far then while you got them out have then tested. At least verify. There isn't any change in smoke and no haze.

[YeaImDylan]

Wouldn't it sit at the elevated RPM? or is it normal for faulty injectors to hang above 800 and then drop below?

[wil440]

If you have fuel in the engine oil how much higher up the dipstick is it ?  how much fuel ?

 

If there is a fair amount of fuel in the engine oil you would get more "vapour" coming out of the breather for the reasons below

 

1. Much higher engine oil level, this can mean the crank is beating the oil a bit like whisking eggs this puts more oil/fuel mist airborne inside the sump

2. Fuel in engine oil makes it thinner and the fuel will vaporize out as the oil gets warmer, this will end up out the breather

 

If it was me ( I do have a lot of engine oil in stock) I'd be dropping the oil and refilling then run it for a bit parked and see what the blowby is with fresh oil, yes I know you haven't fixed the fuel into engine oil but you should get a good enough run out of it to check especially if you have BB cold then compare that with BB cold on new oil

 

Also I see you have a Quad, what is the engine load ? and is it stable

I can't remember what live data shows for engine/fuel but that's one of the first things I would try, I have a S/O Modis and any problems with my truck that's the first thing I grab, I'd be looking for anything injection related and are the readings stable but as I said I can't remember what is shown, I could connect mine and check

 

One other thing, don't run it at all with fuel in the engine oil..... fastest way other than NO engine oil to wipe crank and bearings, a tiny bit of fuel is kindof ok but it sounds like you past tiny  

[Mopar1973Man]

Just more thoughts and knowledge...

 

Normal for at least manual trans it will hang for a bit above 800 RPM as you rolling up to a stop. Then come to rest at 800 RPM (+/-5).

 

As for failed injectors if the engine load is at ZERO or near zero 1-3% range the injectors are most likely failing you. When they are this low or at ZERO this means the ECM is attempting to cut fuel as deep as possible to hold 800 RPM but its getting to the point it can't because injector pop pressure is too low.

[JAG1]

Excuse me for the interruption... can engine load be checked with a simple 200 dollar Bosch code reader? If not is there another way to tell if injectors are at a low pop pressure even though there are no obvious symptoms i.e. higher idle, missing at idle etc.? I ask because it seems when the tell tale signs are present, often it's too late with some damage already occurring.

Edited January 22, 2022 by JAG1

[YeaImDylan]

10 hours ago, wil440 said:

If you have fuel in the engine oil how much higher up the dipstick is it ?  how much fuel ?

 

If there is a fair amount of fuel in the engine oil you would get more "vapour" coming out of the breather for the reasons below

 

1. Much higher engine oil level, this can mean the crank is beating the oil a bit like whisking eggs this puts more oil/fuel mist airborne inside the sump

2. Fuel in engine oil makes it thinner and the fuel will vaporize out as the oil gets warmer, this will end up out the breather

 

If it was me ( I do have a lot of engine oil in stock) I'd be dropping the oil and refilling then run it for a bit parked and see what the blowby is with fresh oil, yes I know you haven't fixed the fuel into engine oil but you should get a good enough run out of it to check especially if you have BB cold then compare that with BB cold on new oil

 

Also I see you have a Quad, what is the engine load ? and is it stable

I can't remember what live data shows for engine/fuel but that's one of the first things I would try, I have a S/O Modis and any problems with my truck that's the first thing I grab, I'd be looking for anything injection related and are the readings stable but as I said I can't remember what is shown, I could connect mine and check

 

One other thing, don't run it at all with fuel in the engine oil..... fastest way other than NO engine oil to wipe crank and bearings, a tiny bit of fuel is kindof ok but it sounds like you past tiny  

It's a damn good amount.. I can't check the engine load currently because the Quad isn't hooked up to the #9 fuse. That's another issue, I need a separate fuse box to run my accessories so that I can free up space to put an actual add a fuse on #9 for the Quad. P/O had a pigtail connected to a flat metal piece with a hole on the end to go through the peg of the #9 fuse.

 

The live data last time I checked (someone asked about it on another thread I started in the past) I commented this "So when at operating temp at idle and all that, it’s bouncing between 5 and 6 and hitting the occasional 4 as well".

 

Do you think I ruined my bottom end driving maybe 5mi total that day? I haven't ran it since. Also talked to Greg Turner today if any of you know of him and he thinks it's crossover tubes. He suggested I take the valve cover off and run it and he said I'd probably see the leak.

[wil440]

1 hour ago, YeaImDylan said:

Do you think I ruined my bottom end driving maybe 5mi total that day? I haven't ran it since. Also talked to Greg Turner today if any of you know of him and he thinks it's crossover tubes. He suggested I take the valve cover off and run it and he said I'd probably see the leak.

Best thing to do is change the oil, I'd be dropping the filter and at least tip it upside down to drain or better fit new then by all means run it a little with the rocker cover off, might make a mess but at least you can check crossovers as suggested, also check around each injector as if O rings are leaking it can come up the side of the injectors 

From experience of fuel dilution it takes a good amount of fuel for longer than 5 miles to damage  bearings/crank bearing in mind service intervals on heavy plant which I work on mostly is now 500hrs and if drivers are lazy and don't check oil level it can be weeks

[YeaImDylan]

1 hour ago, wil440 said:

Best thing to do is change the oil, I'd be dropping the filter and at least tip it upside down to drain or better fit new then by all means run it a little with the rocker cover off, might make a mess but at least you can check crossovers as suggested, also check around each injector as if O rings are leaking it can come up the side of the injectors 

From experience of fuel dilution it takes a good amount of fuel for longer than 5 miles to damage  bearings/crank bearing in mind service intervals on heavy plant which I work on mostly is now 500hrs and if drivers are lazy and don't check oil level it can be weeks

Will definitely do this. So change oil and then run it to check for fuel coming up in the injector area? then change it again after fuel gets in there? Or would I be good to start it once more with the valve cover off for 30 seconds to look for fuel coming up. Also, thank you for the peace of mind with your experiences with guys driving for weeks without checking the oil and the bottom end being good.

[wil440]

8 hours ago, YeaImDylan said:

Will definitely do this. So change oil and then run it to check for fuel coming up in the injector area? then change it again after fuel gets in there? Or would I be good to start it once more with the valve cover off for 30 seconds to look for fuel coming up. Also, thank you for the peace of mind with your experiences with guys driving for weeks without checking the oil and the bottom end being good.

Everything you need to look at relating to injectors is inside the rocker cover so remove the cover first before changing the oil as SOMETIMES with fuel leakage you can see clean tracks on parts where the fuel has washed away black oil/deposits so inspect everything around the crossover tubes and injectors very carefully, you just might get lucky and spot a clean or cleaner area which will at the very least give you the heads up on where to look when it is running.  

The fuel in the oil could also have cleaned away all deposits or the engine oil could have been clean to start with 

Also while inspecting check for any sign of oil film breakdown, on load areas like tips of valves or rocker shaft pivot areas look for gall marks, for the rocker shaft pivot area if you pick a valve that has clearance you might be able to move the rocker over a bit on the shaft to see a small part of the shaft, just try moving it over with your fingers not a lever as if you have slack valve clearances sometimes the pushrod pops out from under the rocker, shiney and bright with no marks is what you want to see

Once you have inspected it then change the oil, you should be able to refill with the RC off.

For the start bit I would get a helper on the key as it could be messy, some engines running with the RC off fling oil everywhere some it goes either one way or the other on a ram my guess is the fan blows it all over the place at least with a helper off is quick

[YeaImDylan]

4 hours ago, wil440 said:

Everything you need to look at relating to injectors is inside the rocker cover so remove the cover first before changing the oil as SOMETIMES with fuel leakage you can see clean tracks on parts where the fuel has washed away black oil/deposits so inspect everything around the crossover tubes and injectors very carefully, you just might get lucky and spot a clean or cleaner area which will at the very least give you the heads up on where to look when it is running.  

The fuel in the oil could also have cleaned away all deposits or the engine oil could have been clean to start with 

Also while inspecting check for any sign of oil film breakdown, on load areas like tips of valves or rocker shaft pivot areas look for gall marks, for the rocker shaft pivot area if you pick a valve that has clearance you might be able to move the rocker over a bit on the shaft to see a small part of the shaft, just try moving it over with your fingers not a lever as if you have slack valve clearances sometimes the pushrod pops out from under the rocker, shiney and bright with no marks is what you want to see

Once you have inspected it then change the oil, you should be able to refill with the RC off.

For the start bit I would get a helper on the key as it could be messy, some engines running with the RC off fling oil everywhere some it goes either one way or the other on a ram my guess is the fan blows it all over the place at least with a helper off is quick

Thank you for this! Truck hasn't ran since Thursday evening and I'm not sure when I'll get a chance to go take off the valve cover. Whenever that time is, will it be too late to see remnants of fuel coming out and washing oil away or would it still be noticeable? Also, would I be safe to start it for a few seconds with the valve cover off? If I can get by with only changing the oil once, I'd like to do that to save money on it. I just don't want to change it, run it and see the fuel, and then have to change it again. If I have to, I'll obviously bite the bullet but I just thought I'd ask beforehand.  

[wil440]

If there is a clean track due to fuel washing deposits away leaving it not running won't change that

 

Yes start it with the RC off after changing the oil but after the inspection   IF you find a leak and the motor hasn't run for long the new oil will be fine unless it's leaking by the gallon

Edited January 23, 2022 by wil440

[Mopar1973Man]

Typically the high flow rate leak is the injection pump seal. As for low flow is stuck injector(s), cracked head, or leaking injector body o-ring(s).

[wil440]

32 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Typically the high flow rate leak is the injection pump seal. As for low flow is stuck injector(s), cracked head, or leaking injector body o-ring(s).

or crossover tubes

As Mike says if you don't see anything under the RC it's time to check the front seal on the VP

Hopefully and I'll admit I've never had the RC off of mine but hopefully you get enough time before getting swamped in engine oil to have a good inspection for fuel leakage, as I said before get someone on the key for no other reason that if oil is going everywhere at least the stop is quick and you can then use cardboard to stop some of it, don't over think it the worst that can happen is oil goes everywhere, spend more time inspecting beforehand but if the head is clean you won't see anything

[Mopar1973Man]

Yes you can run the engine with the valve cover off to inspect operation of the valves and everything. I doubt though you might not see the fuel weeping out with so much oil running around. I'm pretty sure if you call a injection shop and ask for a front seal for the VP44 you can get one. As for the o-rings on the injectors you can get those at DAP. I just bought a set for my truck being I'm still got hard start mornings yet on The Beast. 

[wil440]

4 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

I doubt though you might not see the fuel weeping out with so much oil running around.

That will depend on where oil is flung around, some engines it's easy some not and I admit I've not tried this on a 24v so have no idea on the amount of oil flung everywhere

Worth a try in my book

The very most important thing first off is inspection, time taken here saves ££££ or in your case $$$$ try to find the root cause before spending 

[Mopar1973Man]

3 minutes ago, wil440 said:

The very most important thing first off is inspection, time taken here saves ££££ or in your case $$$$ try to find the root cause before spending 

[IBMobile]

I've run 4 and 6cyl pushrod engines with the valve cover off and used shop towels over them to keep the oil from spraying everywhere.  You can use old rages to do the same thing, lifting one at a time for inspection. 

 

Another thing you might want to do is remove the fanbelt, so you're not worried about getting caught in it or the fan and there is no wind being generated to disrupt the rags that are laid down.  A short engine run with it off will not hurt anything.