Weird Defueling Issue, any advice can help.

[Max Tune]

Being it's an absolute change at 132 steers me away from a mechanical issue. It seems to me, a mechanical issue wouldn't be so precise as to temp influence. 

[Mopar1973Man]

I'm still thinking its a electronic being the set temperature range that things change. It's like the software on the ECM has been altered. No way to tell if there is a Smarty tune in or some sort of custom tune from like a EFI or other tuner. Just easier to reflash and try again. Even if you had another ECM it should change back to that software.  

[Brandon Cooper]

I have been watching the PID values every time I start the truck, the only thing that is constant is the temp of 132. Today I played with the resistors to get the engine temp to display 143 on the live scan, or anything over 132 really, 2.2kohm worked out great. It still defueled same as normal when I drove it down the street and still threw the P0216 code. I pulled the resistor out and plugged the sending unit back in and it was showing 116F. I waited a few minutes and drove it down the road. Watching the temp with the scanner, it was at 131F when the power came back and within a half second it jumped to 132.something. I'm out of ideas now. Do I drive it like it is for a while and see what happens or go ahead and order a VP44. This isn't a daily driver or anything. I was wanting to get everything perfect before putting a tag on it, but should I go ahead and tag/insure it and drive it around for a while before ordering a pump? Sorry for all the questions, it's a new build for me, so there's always a chance I missed something on the wiring. 

2 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

I'm still thinking its a electronic being the set temperature range that things change. It's like the software on the ECM has been altered. No way to tell if there is a Smarty tune in or some sort of custom tune from like a EFI or other tuner. Just easier to reflash and try again. Even if you had another ECM it should change back to that software.  

I have another ECM and PCM. I installed a bone stock ECM yesterday and it did the exact same thing. 

[Max Tune]

I don't know, but I don't think the problems like you have,  mechanical or electronic, could exist IN the pump. I think there is a problem elsewhere.  Are you 100% certain the ecm you say is "stock" has never had a tuner applied to it? Seems highly unlikely you'd have two ecm's with the same tune written on them though....

[Brandon Cooper]

Yeah, the other ECM that I tried came off of a 1999 automatic truck that is stock. I literally pulled it off the truck and put it on mine. 

the only facts that i know for sure is that as soon as the 0216 code pops up, I have half power, and as soon as the engine gets above 132, i have full power. Thank yall again for all the help. 

[Mopar1973Man]

5 minutes ago, Brandon Cooper said:

only facts that i know for sure is that as soon as the 0216 code pops up

 

Injection pump is have timing issues most likely the injection pump is galling up the timing piston and starting ot stick randomly. So I'll bet that the PSG has had some thermal events too hence why the coolant getting warm helps.

[Max Tune]

On 2/8/2023 at 9:26 PM, Brandon Cooper said:

I have a 2000 Ram 3500 Cab & Chassis NV4500. When I got the truck, it had a P-pump converted big turbo 24v built for pulling in it, but I bought the truck and not the engine. I pulled that engine and bought a wrecked 1999 dodge 2500 that ran fine but they needed the VP44 off the engine. So I did the engine swap on this truck, pulled the p-pump motor out and put the stock 2000 engine in it. I used the ECM from the 5 speed truck I currently have and a new VP44. I put a new MAP sensor, APPS, and IAT on the engine while it was out to make things easier. 

So this is a 2000 CC manual.

 

Had a p-pump pulling engine that you pulled.

 

You bought a wrecked 1999 2500 that ran, but someone needed the vp.

 

Then you say you pulled the p-pump engine and put "the stock 2000 engine in it". Did you mean the stock 1999 engine from the wreck?

 

You also used an ecm from a 5 speed truck you have along with a new vp. Where did the vp come from? Has the ecm been tuned?

 

Just recapping from your first post to clarify what has been done to refresh memories. 

Are auto and stick ecm's the same?

[Brandon Cooper]

Yeah, I’m sorry, the engine that I put in was a 1999.

 

My neighbor has a shop and quite a few Cummins trucks. The pump was a new pump that he bought because he was having dead pedal, we put the new pump on his truck but it didn’t solve the dead pedal issue so we took it off and put another pump off of a running truck on his truck that still did the same thing, turned out it was a bad map sensor the whole time on his truck. But the pump was brand new, it just sat on a shelf in his garage because we were saving it for this truck, just took me a year to finally do the engine swap on the truck. 

 

I do not know if my ECM that matches my 5 speed truck has been tuned, but I do know the ECM that I tried on it yesterday has not been tuned and when installed it did the same exact thing. I was really hoping that the ECM was the issue, lol, I have a couple that I can use if that would have been the issue. 

[Tractorman]

The FSM mentions one possible cause for a P0216 code is "possible wrong or incorrectly installed pump keyway."

 

Could this be a possibility because the injection pump came from another engine?

 

- John

[Doubletrouble]

@Tractorman, I was kinda thinking the same thing. Im wondering if it was installed maybe a luttle off one way or the other and once it warms up enough to change timing settings its in phase just enough to run properly?

 Definitely seems like a timing issue. The only way to change timing other than programming would be to change it at the keyway and gear I believe. 

 I am just speculating since I have never removed a vp yet myself.

 In doing some reading while sitting here with my coffee. 

 I found that the number on the key and on the pump must match. The key is mated to the pump during calibration and sets initial timing. If the key is mismatched it could throw the timing off enough to cause an issue. 

 You may want to pull that vp and double check key/pump numbers. 

 @Mopar1973Man might chime in on this theory soon also. 

[Brandon Cooper]

I checked the keyway last week. You can see the key using an automotive bore scope, I read the same thing and was so hoping that was the issue. I installed the pump while the engine was on the stand, so I didn’t think I could have messed that up, but I really hoped that I did, lol. 

As far as the number matching, I haven’t checked that, the keyway was glued into the pump, but the arrow was facing the pump.

[Brandon Cooper]

So.. if it were yall, would you go ahead and tag/insure the truck and start driving it and see if the problem worsens or gets better. I know I have some other small issues to work on, but I replaced all the common stuff while the engine was out like ground leads, power steering gearbox, and fuel lines/filters. Or, would you go ahead and order a VP44 and hope that fixes the problem? I really don't mind letting the truck warm up, I can go ahead and make up a quick high idle switch to help her to warm up faster for the time being. I only have about $9k in the truck now and that's with the all aluminum flatbed, brand new nv4500, and all the small parts, so If i have to buy a new VP44, its still not that much money in the truck. 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Brandon Cooper

[Doubletrouble]

 I won't tell you to drive it or not to, that's your choice. But, I don't think anything will get better while driving it.

[Tractorman]

8 hours ago, Brandon Cooper said:

So.. if it were yall, would you go ahead and tag/insure the truck and start driving it

 

Hmmm, seems like there are three questions here.  Since I think you have been driving the truck already, you probably should tag and insure it.

 

As far as driving the truck with the existing P0216 code, if the truck were mine, I would drive it for awhile before replacing the VP44.  In fact, my truck set the P0216 code back in 2004 and the engine would de-rate at times.  I drove the truck one more year (for over 20,000 miles) before I had the VP44 replaced under warranty.  I learned how to get around the de-rate mode (kind of like you have learned with your truck).

 

Since your particular problem is rather unique, driving the truck for awhile may give you time to try some other ideas to solve the problem.   I can't see that it would hurt anything and time is your friend.  If it turns out the pump needs to be replaced, so be it - at least you will have had the time to come up with other possible solutions.  It will also give you time to find out if there are any other problems associated with the VP44 when the truck is running in the warmed up mode. 

 

It would be interesting to let the truck fully warm up and then clear the P0216 code.  Immediately, start driving the truck for an hour or so and then, before the engine has a chance to cool down, recheck to see if the code P0216 has returned. 

 

- John

 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Tractorman

[Brandon Cooper]

That's what I'm thinking, if it gets better, great, if it get worse, at least I'll know the issue for sure then, lol. I live on an entranceway to a private neighborhood, so only been driving it from my house to my neighbors shop where we do all the work on it. It's for sure been a "fun" project. First time doing a swap with a diesel, and I will say, these engines go not like coming out or going into the truck, lol. Tight fit. Thank yall, I'll update back here once I get some driving time on it. 

[Tractorman]

Definitely let us know what the outcome is. 

 

- John

[Brandon Cooper]

haven't been here for a while, so the truck is slowly getting better. I have been driving it randomly, probably put close to 2k miles on it. Now the truck stops defueling at 123F or so, but no issues other than that.