Re-priming problem after RP-100 install (sorry it's a novel)

[EcoRI]

Cliff notes for Raptor 100 and Autometer fuel pressure sending unit and snubber install, just in case I screwed something up along the way I’ll thoroughly explain, main questions will be in bold font to make easier to read (I hope):

FP Sender - Removed lines going in and out of filter housing (½” ID 35psi fuel/emissions hose from Goodyear, worm gear hose clamp attaches over male fittings). Removed old fp sender which was smutted into filter drain valve and fitting. Reinstalled fitting with additional sealing washer (per Autometer) to index port at an angle away from drain tube, installed new sender and snubber. Bolted filter back into place and reattached hose from filter to VP. Removed fuel filter from canister, wiped out most debris. Began filling with diesel fuel, slowly pouring down the sides to wash any debris I missed to the bottom. Filled housing about an inch, covered with clean rag and let sit for 20 minutes to allow any floating debris to settle at bottom. Slowly filled canister ¾ of the way and inserted filter (3 weeks old).

Pump - Removed OE line from tank to pump and ½” line from pump to filter housing. Installed new ½” blue lines from Raptor kit, bolted pump to frame, installed new wiring, connected and secured hoses.

- Checked for power to the pump - the black ground wire is solid, the positive yellow receives a brief flash of power when key is turned to the "on" position. Double checked fuel line connections. Set flow setting on Raptor to fully open hoping this would get the lines bled faster. Stupid move - I was going to bump starter to bleed… forgot to disconnect a line to allow air a way to escape, held key in “start” position too long, truck turned over and ran for a few seconds then died. I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess air in the lines killed it

Bleed air from lines - removed line going into filter (those “quick connect” lines are fabulous!), wrapped a blue shop towel around the opening so I’d know when fuel came out (working solo here), bumped starter, allowed key return to "on" position, waited thirty seconds, turned key “off” and removed from ignition. Repeated more than 20 times (do not remember the # exact). No fuel present. Cracked the outlet line at pump, fuel was present at that point. I tried the bumping-bleeding business five more times and stopped afraid to cause damage (?)

- How many times can I bump the starter? How much fuel does it pump for the 25 second interval?

Could it be taking so long because of the length of the lines from the RP kit, they look to be long enough for an extended or mega cab (they are secured in a wide loop away from possible road debris)?

[gassernomore]

If you "bump" the starter and everything is hooked up right you would be seeing fuel all over the place(if you left a line loose). By chance have you hooked up the fuel line from the tank to the pump on the outlet side? Fill the filter cannister all the way to the top! You want as little air in the system as possible when you try to start it. I would disconnect the line from the outlet side of the pump and see if you have fuel there, then connect it and try from the outlet side of the filter. If you have done this, and have fuel the next bet would be to bleed at the injectors. http://mopar.mopar1973man.com/cummins/2ndgen24v/reprime-fuel/reprime-fuel.htm Also, if you have been cranking that many times you might want to put a charge on the batteries before you try to start it again! Keep us informed. Good luck!

[EcoRI]

Fill the filter cannister all the way to the top! You want as little air in the system as possible when you try to start it.

Gotchya. I'll do this once the first two lines are bled and I reattached inlet line on filter.

If you have done this, and have fuel the next bet would be to bleed at the injectors. http://mopar.mopar1973man.com/cummins/2ndgen24v/reprime-fuel/reprime-fuel.htm

Yup, I've had that page bookmarked on my laptop and iPhone!!

If you "bump" the starter and everything is hooked up right you would be seeing fuel all over the place(if you left a line loose).

Line going into filter from lp is loose. I just double-double checked lines and connections... and found a kink in the line from tank to lp, out of sight behind the frame next to pump... :banghead: the lines from Raptor are extra long (to also work on extended/mega cab applications I assume?), I made a wide loop on each line and secured away from road debris thinking it was smooth (FAIL). Straightened line out & "bumped" five more times - no fuel @ filter inlet (the connection which is loose).

I would disconnect the line from the outlet side of the pump and see if you have fuel there, then connect it and try from the outlet side of the filter.

Instead of cracking the lp outlet line as I did yesterday, I just completely it out, only has traces of fuel. Pulled inlet line out and it leaked fuel (never been so glad to see diesel fuel my entire life). Reattached both lines. Bumped starter twice. Removed lines - no fuel at inlet or outlet. I'm afraid to ask... that kink in the line - could it have killed the lp?? Side note: the OE lp made noise when I turned the key to the "on" position, I could hear it from the cab. The Raptor hasn't made a noise which I can hear at all. I turn the key to the "on" position (through the window) and duck under the truck to listen. I hear a "click" (sounds like a relay sorta), no pump-like sounds. Same when I bump the starter, I jump out (while key is still in the on position) and stick my head next to the lp - can't hear a hum, bzzzz, nada.

[gassernomore]

I'm afraid to ask... that kink in the line - could it have killed the lp?? Side note: the OE lp made noise when I turned the key to the "on" position, I could hear it from the cab. The Raptor hasn't made a noise which I can hear at all. I turn the key to the "on" position (through the window) and duck under the truck to listen. I hear a "click" (sounds like a relay sorta), no pump-like sounds. Same when I bump the starter, I jump out (while key is still in the on position) and stick my head next to the lp - can't hear a hum, bzzzz, nada.

The kink in the line didn't kill the pump. Sounds more like an electrical problem. My Raptor can be heard with the windows rolled up and the radio on if you bump the starter. Did your setup come with a wiring harness? Was your old lift pump by the fuel cannister? If it was, make sure you use that electrical connection (it will plug into the new harness), also where did you run the red and black wires to? Where did you connect them to? Double check to make sure the fuse on the harness and the other connector is pushed in all the way. Also, there is a white button in the center of the connector ( has like 8 wires) push that in. It would also be a good idea to put dielectric grease on all the electrical connections at this time. When winter rolls around you could have problems. It happened to me! Good luck!

[EcoRI]

Before I set up the red and black wires I texted a mechanic buddy and asked where he thought they would be best (ASE Master Tech dude). He advised I connect them to the positive and negative connections going into the fuse box (the positive comes directly from the battery). I tested power at the lp and it was there... I wasn't hip on putting them at fuse box because the directions didn't mention that as a possible location, but heck he is the mechanic, not me, so I rolled with it.

Sounds more like an electrical problem.

Electrical... BINGO!

... also where did you run the red and black wires to? Where did you connect them to?

I moved the wires to run directly from the battery... flipped the key to "on"... and dang it all if I didn't hear the pump!!! I need to run to the store for my mother and once back I'll bleed air and whatnot and hopefully get this bad boy running!!

[gassernomore]

Electrical... BINGO! I moved the wires to run directly from the battery... flipped the key to "on"... and dang it all if I didn't hear the pump!!!

I have my red wire hooked upto the alternator (black wire about a # 10 ga) and the negative post on passenger battery. In the past for me when, the system has air in it, I have gotten fuel to the filter and then bumped the starter about 12 times. Letting it run thru the full cycle of the fuel pump. Then started it and it goes. Will run rough for a little bit and then all is fine. You might have to bleed at the injectors if this doesn't work. Glad to hear you got "noise" out of the pump! One step closer. Good luck!

[EcoRI]

I read Mike's instruction page for re-priming the engine, and still have questions, which are likely dumbs ones at that...After lines 3, 4, and 5 are cracked, crank the engine (less than 30 secs w/ 2 min between each time) - do the lines have to be tightened up as the engine is being cranked? (in which case I would need a helper) Can I do the cranking and then hop over to tighten lines that leaked out fuel? I did my own "bump" business three times (after getting fuel @ the VP's inlet line) and #5 had fuel. I tightened it up and bumped several more times. No more fuel present at 3, 4, or 1 (I cracked 1 after 5 was tightened). If I read the instructions correctly, I am to actually crank the bad boy over for >30 seconds while lines are cracked, not just a "bump"?Can I hurt the VP just by cranking the engine to bleed the lines? If/when the engine starts and runs rough, will this hurt the VP? As you may guess... I'm afraid it will go kaa-poooey

[MnTom]

You are on the right track. You can crank the engine over then tighten up the injector lines and not hurt anything. No, you won't hurt the VP by trying to bleed it. If you have fuel to the VP the rest should go real easy. After bleeding the three lines it should start and run rough for a little bit, but don't worry, it will be fine.

[EcoRI]

#5 and #4 are bled and tightened. #1 and #3 are cracked. I can't reach #6 to save my life and #2 of course is hiding behind the intake horn.

It's taking a while... Technically I did run it out of fuel when I tried to start it but (unbeknownst to me at the time) lp wasn't getting enough power to do anything (test light showed current when key turned "on" but didn't run).

Okidoki back at it!!

--- Update to the previous post...

Edit: #6 is cracked.

It's taking a lot of cranking. No more than 25 seconds at a time, 3+ minutes between each crank (except for this last bit because I fought with #6).

I've read other posts about it taking a while, but I'm still worried about the stupid thing

[dripley]

is your engine trying to start at all or is it just turning over. i very seldom have to crack more than 2 injectors to get mine started. when it starts you can turn it off then tighten the injectors and crank it back up. you want spray as much fuel every where. it will run rough but smooth out quickly. if you have fuel to all of your injectors it should start right up.

[EcoRI]

dripley, I'm afraid something may be wrong. It's only cranking, not trying to start. The batts are low and I'm on way to pick up a new charger/starter (75 amp and 12 v is the largest in stock, I think that's ok? )A modest amount of fuel came out of 4 and 5, when I cracked 6 is *really* gushed out. I'm thinking that's how they all should look, so I went back to 3, 4, 5 being cracked. Cranked several more times, only a bit of leaking from 4 and slightly more from 5. Stopped when batts were low. It doesn't seem right to take so long, then again I haven't had to bleed from injector lines before. Low pressure lines were bled just fine, and plenty of fuel came out of hose that connects to VP when key put to "on". I'm worried. And a might bit scared.

[tunklo]

I know it's not good, but it happen to me too, like a month ago i went to where my inlaws live (like 235 miles from home) and i never shut off the truck until i got there, went to a party, came back like 8 hours after and my truck didnt not want to start, (at first i believe it was the vp44) we prime the low pressure line (i didn't know that you could prime high pressure lines) and nothing, ran out of battery, i borrow a pair from another truck (i know you never should use starting fluid by any circumstance and i dont recommend it) open the fuel filter box and let it smell some starting fluid and vouila ITS ALIVE, i dont know what happen but it's the first time that does it. Not even when i put my raptor 150 had any trouble sarting my truck, i only prime low pressure lines and it work.

[EcoRI]

I don't know what's up with #1 and #3 because zippo fuel is present when those are cracked. I'm too chicken to try starting fluid!I don't know what to do - for Pete's sake, shouldn't fuel be gushing like it did from #6?? I'm open to any and all suggestions!!Side note: New fp sender isn't playing nice with old gauge, until I get a new set I'm going for a low fp warning light, in the event it starts at least I'll have some fp monitoring.

[dripley]

did you disconnect the vp like i did when i nstalled thebig line kit and new fp gauge. the liift pump will push fuel out of the injectors with out the truck sarting. i had 1, 3, and 4 cracked. i dont know why but i had alot more fuel at 4 than 1 and 3. i spent 2 hours try ing to figure out why it would not start and it turned out that idid not plug the vp back in. check it and see. you might have even pulled it loose by accident. if its loose plug it in and be sure to slide th retainer in all the way.

[EcoRI]

did you disconnect the vp like i did when i nstalled thebig line kit and new fp gauge. the liift pump will push fuel out of the injectors with out the truck sarting. i had 1, 3, and 4 cracked. i dont know why but i had alot more fuel at 4 than 1 and 3. i spent 2 hours try ing to figure out why it would not start and it turned out that idid not plug the vp back in. check it and see. you might have even pulled it loose by accident. if its loose plug it in and be sure to slide th retainer in all the way.

dripley, your comment got my ole' brain-train a rollin’…

I read something from/about Blue Chip Diesel and they said (I’m paraphrasing, here's the ~LINK) if upon cranking, one line flows but the others don’t or some only trickle the rotor has seized (the line rotor is stuck at flows, the other lines that trickle do so by pressure from the lp since the ip cannot hydro-lock).

If that’s correct, it makes sense a seized rotor (Blue Chip’s example) and a VP without the ECM connection (dripley’s experience) would display the same air bleeding pattern.

That’s exactly what my truck is doing, yet VP and that 9-pin thing are happily connected to ECM. I’m not big on the idea the VP seized at the same moment I swapped lp’s and tried to start it (unless I have poo for luck!).

I know there’s plenty of fp in the low pressure lines. My train of thought is that the VP somehow isn’t getting the juice or proper instructions to do its darn job?? Bad ground? Some other connection loose or hooked up funny? ECM telling the fuel system a bunch of lies?

I’ll find a map or diagram of the VP and whatnot to see where wires should go, ground, etc. and check my truck.

Also bugging me, the lp doesn't do the 2 second prime each time I turn the key to "on", I have to turn the key off for a minute or two, then back to “on” for lp to run 2 seconds (doesn’t do diddly-squat if I turn the key to “on”, let it run for 2 sec, key off, then back to “on”). I mention it b/c my OE lp ran for 2 sec each and every time the key hit “on”.

I miss my Cummins -->

~ Any and all input is welcome! I'm a giant with fuel and electrical stuff!! I need to get a solid handle on how ECM, VP, lp, solenoids, and relays work together, I hate not knowing and eager to learn!

[gassernomore]

Side note: New fp sender isn't playing nice with old gauge, until I get a new set I'm going for a low fp warning light, in the event it starts at least I'll have some fp monitoring.

Usually a low pressure light comes on at like 4 or 5 psi I think. (can't remember) So, it is to late to save the VP then. Where did you end up hooking up the red and black wires at?

[EcoRI]

Usually a low pressure light comes on at like 4 or 5 psi I think. (can't remember) So, it is to late to save the VP then.

I'm more or less in a panic, feeling helpless, lost, and like I need to *do* something productive/proactive, and the warning light was a stretch.

You're definitely right about 5psi being too late. I pondered that after I got home and left it in the bag, figured I wait and get input from the more knowledgable folks before doing anything with it

Where did you end up hooking up the red and black wires at?

Wires moved to the alt and ground

--- Update to the previous post...

(My train of thought can be discomboobulated sometimes, very ADD)

Few days ago after new lp install I checked fuel-related fuses and relay. Swapped fuel relay with wiper relay & wipers still worked. Pulling fuel relay (key was “on”) tripped CEL, I ignored it for the moment assuming the comp was PO'ed I pulled the relay while it was on (maybe a be P1689? But I don’t know if that will only trip if engine is cranking or key being “on” after a 2-second prime by the lp). Anyhoo…

I checked the codes a few minutes ago, " ----- P1693 ----- P done ----- 223,860."

“a 1693 is never by itself... always wait for "p done" to flash twice to get codes from PCM and ECM” >>Mike's link<<

I only have a companion DTC and one P done - can that happen on an otherwise healthy engine?? If either control module wasn't working would the other one have a code indicating such?

[gassernomore]

I only have a companion DTC and one P done - can that happen on an otherwise healthy engine?? If either control module wasn't working would the other one have a code indicating such?

Some of the '00 and '01 trucks have a problem with reading both computers using the key method. Best bet is to have a code reader to see if there are any other codes. Sorry I can't help with the injectors. I am CLUELESS when it comes to the VP and bleeding the injectors! Good luck!

[dripley]

dripley, your comment got my ole' brain-train a rollin’…

I read something from/about Blue Chip Diesel and they said (I’m paraphrasing, here's the ~LINK) if upon cranking, one line flows but the others don’t or some only trickle the rotor has seized (the line rotor is stuck at flows, the other lines that trickle do so by pressure from the lp since the ip cannot hydro-lock).

If that’s correct, it makes sense a seized rotor (Blue Chip’s example) and a VP without the ECM connection (dripley’s experience) would display the same air bleeding pattern.

That’s exactly what my truck is doing, yet VP and that 9-pin thing are happily connected to ECM. I’m not big on the idea the VP seized at the same moment I swapped lp’s and tried to start it (unless I have poo for luck!).

I know there’s plenty of fp in the low pressure lines. My train of thought is that the VP somehow isn’t getting the juice or proper instructions to do its darn job?? Bad ground? Some other connection loose or hooked up funny? ECM telling the fuel system a bunch of lies?

I’ll find a map or diagram of the VP and whatnot to see where wires should go, ground, etc. and check my truck.

Also bugging me, the lp doesn't do the 2 second prime each time I turn the key to "on", I have to turn the key off for a minute or two, then back to “on” for lp to run 2 seconds (doesn’t do diddly-squat if I turn the key to “on”, let it run for 2 sec, key off, then back to “on”). I mention it b/c my OE lp ran for 2 sec each and every time the key hit “on”.

I miss my Cummins -->

~ Any and all input is welcome! I'm a giant with fuel and electrical stuff!! I need to get a solid handle on how ECM, VP, lp, solenoids, and relays work together, I hate not knowing and eager to learn!

i am like you i dont think the rotor would sieze just from changing the lp. it is possible that it could have happened since your fuel pressure has been low. that would be s### for luck as you stated. the timing of it possibly failing might have coincidental. the problem you are having is identical to what i experianced except mine turned out to be electrical. if you did have that connection apart, buy some electronics cleaner, take it apart again, clean both the socket and connecter, reconnect and try again. when you connected your new fp to ground is it possible you disturbed another ground wire, there are alot of them on these trucks. dont just buy another vp. this could be very simple.

i had plenty of fuel coming to my injectors. so much so i thought i had afuel leak. spent some time chasing that one until i saw it coming from #4. it was running off the back of the engine and i thought it was coming from the return line. it was bout that time i realized the vp was unplugged.

Mike has a wiring diagram for the vp plug here. i am not good at electronics either so maybe someone can help with how to chase that part of it down.

when it turn my swithc on the fp comes on for about 1/4 second and no more, but it does it every time. i think you got something loose or corroded and in need of cleaning. still a possibility the vp is bad. prior to installing the AD i have now i could not have told you wether mine was doing the little bump or not.

i have driven the wifes dakota more than my 2500. that sucks.

--- Update to the previous post...

dripley, your comment got my ole' brain-train a rollin’…

I read something from/about Blue Chip Diesel and they said (I’m paraphrasing, here's the ~LINK) if upon cranking, one line flows but the others don’t or some only trickle the rotor has seized (the line rotor is stuck at flows, the other lines that trickle do so by pressure from the lp since the ip cannot hydro-lock).

If that’s correct, it makes sense a seized rotor (Blue Chip’s example) and a VP without the ECM connection (dripley’s experience) would display the same air bleeding pattern.

That’s exactly what my truck is doing, yet VP and that 9-pin thing are happily connected to ECM. I’m not big on the idea the VP seized at the same moment I swapped lp’s and tried to start it (unless I have poo for luck!).

I know there’s plenty of fp in the low pressure lines. My train of thought is that the VP somehow isn’t getting the juice or proper instructions to do its darn job?? Bad ground? Some other connection loose or hooked up funny? ECM telling the fuel system a bunch of lies?

I’ll find a map or diagram of the VP and whatnot to see where wires should go, ground, etc. and check my truck.

Also bugging me, the lp doesn't do the 2 second prime each time I turn the key to "on", I have to turn the key off for a minute or two, then back to “on” for lp to run 2 seconds (doesn’t do diddly-squat if I turn the key to “on”, let it run for 2 sec, key off, then back to “on”). I mention it b/c my OE lp ran for 2 sec each and every time the key hit “on”.

I miss my Cummins -->

~ Any and all input is welcome! I'm a giant with fuel and electrical stuff!! I need to get a solid handle on how ECM, VP, lp, solenoids, and relays work together, I hate not knowing and eager to learn!

Some of the '00 and '01 trucks have a problem with reading both computers using the key method. Best bet is to have a code reader to see if there are any other codes.

Sorry I can't help with the injectors. I am CLUELESS when it comes to the VP and bleeding the injectors!

Good luck!

i have heard the same thing about 00 and 01's. i have had the 1693 code a couple aof times with no other code shown even after 2 pdones. have your codes read somewhere or buy a code reader. i need one my self. they will sometimes show a code that the key trick wont.

[EcoRI]

Some of the '00 and '01 trucks have a problem with reading both computers using the key method. Best bet is to have a code reader to see if there are any other codes.

Ahhh that makes sense why my codes didn't show up right. I purchased a scan tool this afternoon!

Sorry I can't help with the injectors. I am CLUELESS when it comes to the VP and bleeding the injectors!

Good luck!

No worries, you have been a great help and it's much appreciated!!!

Scan tool pulled the following codes, click the definitions to go to Marpar1973Man page for details:

P0602 - ECM Fueling Calibration Error - Internal fault condition detected

From cumminsforum.com (link here) "P0602 is generally an erroneous fault code, disregard the P0602 fault. Perform fuel system flow tests, reference TSB 14-03-06 revision A to diagnose the original engine performance problem" and some random dude said, "0602 essentially means unrecognized software, it comes with lotsa programmers". I have an unknown chip/program/thingamajig, maybe that's the cause of this one? But I had my truck scanned by Advance Auto a few weeks back just to see if anything was lurking in the shadows. There was something about the fuel level sender not changing over miles (P0460), but it went away and never came back. Maybe their scanner didn't do a great job and 0602 was there the whole time? (I hope)

P1689 - No Communication between ECM & Injection Pump Module - Data link circuit failure between ECM and fuel injection pump. Low power, engine derated, or engine stops.

Removing fuel relay can cause this code (link here). So for some reason or another the ECM is taking a nap and not telling VP what the heck to do. I removed my fuel relay (checking it, it tested good) however it wasn't when engine was cranked, key was in the "on" position. Don't know if that will send code or if it has to be cranking at the time (?)

P1698 - No CCD Messages Received From PCM - Bus communication failure to PCM. A Companion DTC was set in both the ECM and PCM. PCM is monitored for receiving BUS messages with ignition on and engine off and with engine running. DTC

may set if there is no communication with the PCM.

I'm gathering from this the PCM and ECM are not communicating properly??