VP44 PSG fuel cooler ideas

[KATOOM]

Good info Mike.  Thanks for the update.

[flagmanruss]

Ok, guys...  Chip of Blue Chip used to have info up on his site (don't know if it's still up).  Said the electrical failures were att heat caused.  Claimed to have tried coolers, fans, insulation & a number of other ideasd to cool the VP44...  without success.  HE felt the issue was it was bolted to a large hunk of hot iron...  nothing could overcome that.  Keeping the engine at proper temps is surely a help.  He knew about but didn't comment on the increased fuel flow concept. 

In my opinion, cooler fuel can't hurt.  Letting the engine idle to cool off...  and avoiding heart soak with the continuing fuel flow...  seems logical to me.  A lot more troubles in hot climates... 

[rancherman]

Ok another test run...

 

This is after a run to town and left idling when I returned.

 

Outside Temperature: 98*F

 

Fuel tank Temperature: 85*F

AirDog Filter Temperature: 85*F

Stock Filter Housing Temperature: 98*F

VP44 Inlet: 101*F

VP44 Overflow: 130*F

VP44 Case: 130*F

 

After 10 minutes of being shut off...

 

VP44 case 130*F.

 

I'll try again tomorrow...

so,  if  we are  'returning'  ~75 gallons per hour,  or  2  tank turnovers,

and  if  we are  adding  ~  20  degrees   everytime  the  tank is  turned.. (better figure  SOME  cooling  in the return)        

 

Safe to  say it  takes  about  15-20 minutes  after cold start  to  see   returning heat to tank....    an  hour trip on  a hot  day  could see    140  fuel in the tank???

[flagmanruss]

Just a note, Blue chip diesel site is still up & updated...  incidentally credits Mike & this site for the IAT & it's affect of VP44 operation.  always interesting to read. 

[rancherman]

Ok, guys...  Chip of Blue Chip used to have info up on his site (don't know if it's still up).  Said the electrical failures were att heat caused.  Claimed to have tried coolers, fans, insulation & a number of other ideasd to cool the VP44...  without success.  HE felt the issue was it was bolted to a large hunk of hot iron...  nothing could overcome that.  Keeping the engine at proper temps is surely a help.  He knew about but didn't comment on the increased fuel flow concept. 

In my opinion, cooler fuel can't hurt.  Letting the engine idle to cool off...  and avoiding heart soak with the continuing fuel flow...  seems logical to me.  A lot more troubles in hot climates... 

heres a link to  one of their  articles

http://www.bluechipdiesel.com/VP44INFO.html

 

They figure  a  tuner will  hold  the solenoid  shut  a  'tic' longer  for  more fuel,  which increases  duty cycle,  and   solenoids  make heat.   Me,  I have trouble  seeing  a tiny solenoid  making that much.. but  that's  just an opinion.

next,  they said  flow through  the pump ceases  when engine is  off,  negating  a   'cool off  period'  with  lift pump,  after shut down. (this is for the guys  who are considering  a  timer for  lift pump)    All I can  come up with on that is  the fuel  travels through the vane pump...  and  if that is not  turning,  makes a pretty good  shut off  valve!

 

Reading between their lines,  it appears  they have   settled on   short trip,  many  engine  on/off   cycles per day  is   the  hardest thing on the  .44         Chip  is  pretty   'pro'  keep  the  pump as  cool as possible  WHILE  it's running,  and    heat soaks  will  not be as  bad...

NOW, My question to   everyone  with  an electronics  knowledge:

 

What's harder on  electronics....  a  constant  temp,  whether its  hot, or  cold...  or  many many  cycles   up and down?????

I was  taught  15 years ago to  just let the ol  desktop  grind.    frequent  shut downs       and   heat up  cycles   would  crack  the motherboard  solder...   Keep it  @ working  temp. 

soooooooooo...  whatcha think???

Edited August 9, 2014 by rancherman

[Mopar1973Man]

Just a note, Blue chip diesel site is still up & updated...  incidentally credits Mike & this site for the IAT & it's affect of VP44 operation.  always interesting to read. 

 

I had to go read...

 

http://www.bluechipdiesel.com/vp44diagnostichelp.html

 

We didn't used to consider the IAT or Intake Air Temperature sensor as a relevant part of the VP44 fuel system, as we thought it only told the ECM whether or not to turn on the intake heating ribbons, for a cold start. Recently, as of 2014, we have been convinced that this sensor DOES effect drivability and performance. We got this information from callers that have learned otherwise from a smart guy on the internet, who's website is www.mopar1973man.com. Since he has it all documented and explained, we recommend using him and his website for enlightenment, and do not want to exploit or duplicate his good work!

 

[rancherman]

Oh,  I got  'lost'  in his explanation of    certain 'tuners'  will cause  ALL  the work to be computed in the   '44's   computer, (creating even more heat where we don't want)    while  other  programmers  will  only modify   the   ecm..  and  not  create more heat..      

 

anyone else  catch that?

[KATOOM]

I understand Chip was selling performance boxes which were supposedly more VP "friendly" than other main stream boxes by not creating the internal heat as others.  Cant say one way or the other how true this was either but it did make me wonder.  Especially when I could pick up an EZ for a few hundred less than Chips cheapest box.  But his VP's were always way more expensive than the competition too.  But.....I do always go back to that hot shot driver who had 1 million miles on a factory OEM VP44 and he coincidentally had one of Chips boxes.  Hmmm.....

 

I used to have long lengthy conversations with Chip and he had a lot of interesting points of views and history behind what he knew.  Strangely though, as the years went by he sometimes contradicted himself by telling me something completely different in regards to the same question and situation.  Maybe all that means is what he knew evolved with what everyone learned over time or some other reason.  Either way he was always more than happy to talk and help.

 

Anyways, I went out and bought a laser thermometer and plan on running some tests myself before I go changing everything around.  Man those things are EXPENSIVE too.

[Yankneck696]

Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible- Frank Zappa....

Glad I'm not normal....

Ed

[KATOOM]

Are we posting famous quotes now?  How about "necessity is the mother of all invention".  Seems to be the most logical approach.....  Zappa was probably just high when he said what he said.

[KATOOM]

Ok another test run...

 

This is after a run to town and left idling when I returned.

 

Outside Temperature: 98*F

 

Fuel tank Temperature: 85*F

AirDog Filter Temperature: 85*F

Stock Filter Housing Temperature: 98*F

VP44 Inlet: 101*F

VP44 Overflow: 130*F

VP44 Case: 130*F

 

After 10 minutes of being shut off...

 

VP44 case 130*F.

 

I'll try again tomorrow...

 

This may sound like a stupid idea but what does anyone think about using house pipe insulation on the fuel lines around the engine area?  Because it seems that the farther from the fuel pump you got Mike, the hotter the fuel lines got.  If there was more insulation around the fuel lines then the radiant heat should have less affect.  No?  The reason I was thinking pipe insulation too is merely because its cheap and easy to use whereas real fuel line insulation isnt cheap and you have to get the type that Velcro's on otherwise you have disconnect the lines.

[Mopar1973Man]

In my case it would be best to ditch the stock fuel filter can to quit absorbing heat from the manifold. Remember there is a coolant passage in the intake for this reason. But since I'm in the northern states and cold winters do happen (-25*F) I'll keep the stock filter can.

 

Again... Think about it. I've got 4 computers and under full load I can see 160-180*F working temp of the CPU. Also remember I don't have air conditioning here in the house so it possible to see 85-87*F inside the house. Just idling around at 10% load I'm still 130-140*F. This computer is over 5 years old and no harm has come from working it for 48 hours straight at 100% load. (Doing web site backups) Even worse take my laptop to work and use it in a shop with room temperature of 105*F and still work the laptop well into the 160-180*F range and no issues.

 

So why would a mere 130*F fuel temp be a panic for the VP44? Also once again how many reported P0168 codes have you seen? (I've only see one!)

[JAG1]

Wouldn't constant temps be potentially less harmful to electronics than radical sudden changes in temperature?

 

I do like my oem filter heat isolation block I made. Keeps the manifold heat off the filter.

Edited August 10, 2014 by JAG1

[ABennin]

Been following the thread and I have been watching the fuel temp on monitor the last few days.  I have seen 125 to 150 after it is shut off for a while.  It will quickly drop to around 100 while driving.  I drove for 45 minutes at one point today and it was in the high seventies outside.  It stayed right at 101 the whole time.  The fuel tank has about 25 gallons left in it at this time.  I am going watch it next time I tow and see if it changes.  This is still on the original VP with 186k. 

[Mopar1973Man]

Original VP44 died at 50k miles. My current VP44 has 183k miles no issues. Summer weather as high as 115*F and winter weather as low as -25*F.

[KATOOM]

I agree.....  The temps these VP's run at "should" be well within the electronics safe zone.  If thats the case then whats causing the PSG transistors to short out?  It MUST be heat from something, but what?  Excessive heat from overheating the solder causing crystallization or from resistance over time from the crystallization resulting in amperage increases?  I'm really just tossing out ideas here since I'm at a loss.....

 

That said, when your engine temps are in the 210*-220* range and your pulling hills, is the VP getting hotter or is the fuel running through it still dissipating enough heat to keep in under 160*.  Well since the P0168 code is rare then I guess that would lean towards yes.  

[Mopar1973Man]

AC noise from the alternator... Just like Computers they can't stand dirty power from a cheap or bad power supply and typically eat the CPU or RAM. So in the same sense if you able to run the VP44 off the batteries only and no alternator you never have failure or least extremely low failure rate. Like my alternator is still in the 0.01-0.02 AC volt range extremely low. So every time the AC cycle work run the polarity backwards (negative wave on a positive line) the current is shoved into the transistors creating even more heat.

 

Any think about it the ECM is on the side of the block in direct contact of the coolant jacket. That is a true computer without ventilation, no heat sink, no coolant, nothing. What kills the ECM more so... AC noise...

[JAG1]

Now I think it smart if we all put in AC noise gauges. Right next to Fuel pressure.

Edited August 10, 2014 by JAG1

[Mopar1973Man]

I just pull out the fluke meter now and then and check the voltage and move on...

[Yankneck696]

My hypothesis of the computer failure is sustained heating & cycling of the EPA mandated no lead solder expanding & contracting, which is much more difficult than with the lead. It then leads to micro fracturing of some connections, which leads to semiconductors requiring more amperage draw to do their job, hence overheating of the junction internally.

 

Also, Frank Zappa had a glass of red wine every Christmass dinner. That was the extent of his mind altering substance intake.

 

Ed