12 Fuel psi idle 0 wot - Help

[Arlis B. Ortman]

I have a 1999 24v cummins.  I'm probably the 4th owner, possibly 5th.  A previous owner had installed exhaust mods, fass DDRP v02, Edge Juice with attitude.  I'm not sure of any other modifications.  The DDRP went out on me the other day on my way home.  I limped truck home.  After sitting over night and trying to start the next day, truck was showing 0 fuel psi anywhere and i couldnt hear the lift pump at all.  I was limited by funds, but replaced the lift pump with a napa one (airtex i think is the brand - not ideal, i know)

 

Truck then was showing 21psi at the top of the filter cap, but 0 psi leaving the filter cap.  My edge, which i believe checks psi at the VP44 showed 0 psi until i would kick the starter once.  Then i twould jump up to 14-20psi right away.  I have since replaced the battery cables as there was some corrosion and i noticed some cutting power to the edge occasionally.

 

I had the codes read, but unfortunately didnt get them written down.  Mechanic said everything checks out fine, yet i'm still getting 0 psi when i'm on the highway under ANY sort of pedal.  onlytime i show psi over 0 is if the truck is at an idle, then it will slowly climb back up to about 10psi (per edge)

 

I know that running under spec for psi is a sure killer of your vp44.  I need some advice as to what could be going wrong here?

 

I've also changed the fuel filter.

 

Truck has 210,000 miles.  Its unknown to me if the vp44 has ever been replaced or not.

 

Thanks,

[TFaoro]

First off you need to park the truck until you can get this issue figured out. Driving it is going to kill the VP. Can you post the brand and model of pump that you bought? How do you know the fass went out? What testing did you do to determine that? It is very rare for any of the fass pumps to quit working out of the blue. You need to run to the parts store and get a mechanical fuel pressure gauge to determine if the edge is actually reading correctly. Beyond that have you pulled the line off of the VP to see if you are getting good fuel directly at the pump? Maybe a clogged line, cut fuel line or something?? 

Welcome to the forum! There should be many more guys jumping in to help soon - You came to the right place

[Arlis B. Ortman]

The pump I put on is an Airtex E7153.  Its not great, but price was a factor.  I didnt do any testing on the removed FASS DDRP.  I am a complete newbie to auto mechanics.  I couldnt hear it running when i turned the key and i wasnt getting any pressure so i figured it was shot.  Guess that was my best guess of where to start.  I'd much prefer to put the FASS back in as its a far superior pump.  Is there a test i can run on it to see if its functional?

 

Maybe i could plug it in and see if it turns?

 

I've got a mechanical tester.  I've tested the psi at the 2 fuel filter outlets for psi.  The 'in' was testing at 20 psi on the mechanical gauge and the out was testing 0 psi.  I checked my connections going off the filter to the VP, possibly it was to tight?  Now i read around 12 leaving the filter heading towards the VP.

 

I have looked and looked, but cant seem to find the spot on the VP to test fuel pressure mechanically.  Also, should i just pull the hose and turn the key to get it to flow test that, or crank the engine as well?

 

Thanks

[Mopar1973Man]

I tend to agree I would park the truck till you can get at least 10 PSI on the highway. Now I would be looking at checking the power to the lift pump and be sure its a good 12V when the truck is running. Then check the Edge Juice fuel pressure sender against a mechanical gauge. Really common for electric gauge sender to get damaged from water hammer. Mechanical gauge at this point would be your friend. If the pump is still running and not producing then I would replace it under warranty.

[mulcher812]

Like everyone has said park it before your looking at a $1000 VP replacement. I have a mechanical gauge inside my truck that I ran from the top of the filter housing. Just a cheap ashcroft 0-30 psi gauge with a 1/4 quick connect fitting on it. Some of the trucks have a Schrader valve right on the side of the VP and Napa has a test hose you can get for them. Not sure on the cost of the hose.

[snowshoveler]

Ummm...unless I read it wrong there is 20 psi before the filter and 0 after it.

Shouldn't that tell you to change the filter.

I might be wrong but thats the first thing to do and I keep a filter handy all the time.  

I am very carefull where I buy fuel but have been caught with crap in it once. It can happen.

regards Chris

[Arlis B. Ortman]

Thanks for the help guys.  I did replace the filter first.  Second was the fuel pump, then the 12v power.  The power was the only thing throwing out any codes too, so Mopar1973man was definetly on the right track there too. 

 

When i replaced the battery cables i was attaching the starter side and noticed someone had spliced in an aftermarket 'in line' fuel filter.  not only that but the splice job was horrible and the fuel line was pinched on both sides!  Removed the filter and it took some hefty air pressure to blow through.  I ran down to local car parts store and got a new sediment filter.  The one i took off was only rated for gas engines also!

 

Slapped in the new in line debris filter, and trimmed the line to fit properly. 

 

Looks like its working great now!

 

18psi idle

varies between 8-10 with the hammer down at 2,000+ rpms.  I'll have to check all my connections now that its flowing properly to make sure everything is snug and no leaks after all the changes.

 

I wouldnt mind getting my DDRP v02 back in there, but is there a way i can test its functionality when its not installed?

 

Fantastic forum btw.  Very constructive answers, unlike what i found in a different diesel forum!

 

Thanks

[Ilikeoldfords]

Just hook it up to power for a couple of seconds. If it runs, you will know. If you hook it up and nothing happens, shes no good. You can do it with a couple of jumper wires hooked to the battery pretty easily.

 

Note: Dont let it run to long like that though. With no fuel going through it, there isnt anything to lubricate it and it can wear out prematurely.

[Mopar1973Man]

Thanks for the help guys.  I did replace the filter first.  Second was the fuel pump, then the 12v power.  The power was the only thing throwing out any codes too, so Mopar1973man was definetly on the right track there too. 

 

When i replaced the battery cables i was attaching the starter side and noticed someone had spliced in an aftermarket 'in line' fuel filter.  not only that but the splice job was horrible and the fuel line was pinched on both sides!  Removed the filter and it took some hefty air pressure to blow through.  I ran down to local car parts store and got a new sediment filter.  The one i took off was only rated for gas engines also!

 

Slapped in the new in line debris filter, and trimmed the line to fit properly. 

 

Looks like its working great now!

 

18psi idle

varies between 8-10 with the hammer down at 2,000+ rpms.  I'll have to check all my connections now that its flowing properly to make sure everything is snug and no leaks after all the changes.

 

I wouldnt mind getting my DDRP v02 back in there, but is there a way i can test its functionality when its not installed?

 

Fantastic forum btw.  Very constructive answers, unlike what i found in a different diesel forum!

 

Thanks

 

I have to ask is this 2,000 RPM's in neutral or actually rolling on the pavement?

[rancherman]

I too  have  the  Fass  02...  along  with a  pre screen filter  just before the pump.   It's  the same size as  a  G2  fram  canister  gas  filter,  but it's  only a  screen.  (to keep junk out of the  pump)     You might want to  put another back in place... it doesn't take much  debris to  lock up a  pump like ours.   Then you WILL have   zero pressure!

 

I suppose  the ultimate way to really test  your pump before  re installing it,  would be to  make it actually  pump fuel.   Couple short pieces of hose, your pressure gauge,   some fuel,  and  jumper the motor and see whatcha  got for pressure.     This  dead-ended pump  should  be  pretty close to 20  psi or more.   (make sure you  have the  wires  right.. otherwise it'll spin backwards)   And   let it pump  some fuel a little before attaching  the  end cap (pressure gauge)  All the air will be out then.

 

I don't remember the exact number of the  prescreen I have,  I just did a quick search  and found  WIX 33253   as  a   3/8ths   nippled  metal can,  with  120 mesh screen.  If  this isn't  exactly what I have,  it's darn close!

..... I am 'fighting' this  arrangement...   a  metal screen on the  suction side of  a  diesel fuel system  is  problematic..  ( first spot  for   icing, wax...)    But  I've  got  the ultimate cure  ordered!      This is going to be  a  new thread  here in  about 2 weeks!  Stay tuned!

Edited November 23, 2014 by rancherman

[TFaoro]

I have to ask is this 2,000 RPM's in neutral or actually rolling on the pavement?

He said hammer down so I would assume rolling down the pavement. Let's wait and see shall we!

 

I too  have  the  Fass  02...  along  with a  pre screen filter  just before the pump.   It's  the same size as  a  G2  fram  canister  gas  filter,  but it's  only a  screen.  (to keep junk out of the  pump)     You might want to  put another back in place... it doesn't take much  debris to  lock up a  pump like ours.   Then you WILL have   zero pressure!

 

I suppose  the ultimate way to really test  your pump before  re installing it,  would be to  make it actually  pump fuel.   Couple short pieces of hose, your pressure gauge,   some fuel,  and  jumper the motor and see whatcha  got for pressure.     This  dead-ended pump  should  be  pretty close to 20  psi or more.   (make sure you  have the  wires  right.. otherwise it'll spin backwards)   And   let it pump  some fuel a little before attaching  the  end cap (pressure gauge)  All the air will be out then.

 

I don't remember the exact number of the  prescreen I have,  I just did a quick search  and found  WIX 33253   as  a   3/8ths   nippled  metal can,  with  120 mesh screen.  If  this isn't  exactly what I have,  it's darn close!

..... I am 'fighting' this  arrangement...   a  metal screen on the  suction side of  a  diesel fuel system  is  problematic..  ( first spot  for   icing, wax...)    But  I've  got  the ultimate cure  ordered!      This is going to be  a  new thread  here in  about 2 weeks!  Stay tuned!

Check his post he said that he ran down to the parts store and bought another one 

And no more of this secret stuff!!! I want to know NOW!! I have already gelled once this winter.   I think I have worse luck than anyone else with fuel gelling 

[rancherman]

He said hammer down so I would assume rolling down the pavement. Let's wait and see shall we!

 

Check his post he said that he ran down to the parts store and bought another one 

And no more of this secret stuff!!! I want to know NOW!! I have already gelled once this winter.   I think I have worse luck than anyone else with fuel gelling 

Had pretty good dialog with the Artic-fox boys  up in Minnesota  last week.   I explained  how and when my fuel problems  are occurring.

They pretty much   have 2  scenarios  of  fuel problems-  

1.   engine starts ok,  but  soon   gels up.    (fuel is  getting out of the tank,  but is  gelling up  in the filters)

2.   engine   is   difficult or impossible to start   ( fuel  is difficult to extract from tank,  and or   filters  are plugged  before  engine is  even started) 

My  winter equipment,  along with the Ram,  is  the first  scenario.

 

My original  idea was their  'hot line' product,   whereas  a  4  foot  section of   fuel line  has  a   heat tape  running  the length inside  of the line. 12v.     They talked me out of this,  because  the  fuel  (after starting)   travels  too quickly through it  for  any appreciable  heat uptake.   It's  mainly for the  'first gulp'.   

 

They  highly recommend  their   "Alternative fuels  inline heater''.    ummmm,  starting prices  of  almost  1200 bucks.   Next option please!   

I  looked in their other  warmers,  and   "linehauler"  or  "midranger"     product caught my eye.   

http://www.arctic-fox.com/products/midranger153-linehauler153-models

These   are  engine coolant  warmed  heat exchangers.    The  2  I am looking at for my  tractor and  ram,  have  3/8ths  fuel ports, and  1/2 inch  coolant ports...

These  have 3 levels  of  options:   the basic  heat exchanger with mounting bracket is   ~ $190...  then  if you want it equipped with a  thermostat  ( maintains  78- 95 degrees)  then it  runs   $427,  and  the ultimate  WITH  electric  pre heat  ( 120v),  thermostat,   will  be  $635.

 

Here's  how  I am justifying it.

right now, today,   #1 fuel is   $4.65  gallon.       Last year,  I spent almost  $700  on   'miracle additives'  lol:   powerservice,  howes,  etc etc.      I also burned  an ungodly amount of fuel last  winter   with this  'cut' fuel.    The  closer  I can keep it to straight #2  the better!       I  suspect I burned  at least   500 extra gallons  of  this  'watered down'  crap  than  normal.    This  is  on ONE tractor.   I DON'T  expect  it to work  on straight #2,  but  If  I can  get by  with   less than   50%  #1   (last year,  I needed  almost  75%  #1 to keep em lighted,  then  good for me.   I'd really be  tickled to death  if I can  make  'treated'  #2  work!!!

 

Not to mention  the  'more than one phone call'  to the  wife to  pick me up  off the side of the road   as  the   ram   coasted/sputtered  to a stop...

You guys can ridicule/chastise me for  the fuel I am using..  but  this is  what  I am dealt.      All the  fuel suppliers  within a  100 mile radius  get  their  product from the same terminal.   I really can't  shop around,  so   I'll  MAKE THE FUEL  WORK!

I'm going to put  the  'cheapo' one on the tractor first,  to give me  a  base line  of  just how hot  it's  getting the fuel up to..      I can always   put in a  manual valve  and  shut down the  coolant if reqd.

The reason I thought I'd  wait a couple weeks,  was to  get a  firm grip on how  this plays out...  guinea pig  I guess..     and   let the  'family'  either  benefit or  be forewarned!

[Arlis B. Ortman]

Yeah that was rolling down the highway.  2,000 RPMS was conservative as i was really getting into it to test the drag on fuel pressure.  probably didnt go about 2400RPMS (on the road).

[MnTom]

For a fuel heater that uses coolant, what about using a transmission heat exchanger from an automatic and then you can plumb it where ever you want?

[LiveOak]

If fuel gelling or icing up is an issue,  I would think a fuel additive or just adding some kerosene is MUCH cheaper and effective than adding fuel heaters/warmers. 

 

I buy my fuel additive from Amalgamated in the 5 gallon container. 

 

I use the TDR-WDA formula for Winter

 

http://www.amalgamatedinc.com/tdr-wda.aspx

 

TDR-S for warm seasons

 

http://www.amalgamatedinc.com/tdr-s.aspx

 

10 gallons of fuel additive will last you a LONG time. 

 

If icing up is a really bad issue, go to an airport and buy 55 gallons (a drum or several diesel cans) of Jet-A1 and mix it with your diesel starting with a 5 -10% mix or until you can titrate a mix % that will not gell or ice up.  Jet A-1 by its very nature is very resistant to gelling and icing up but has required additives that cover a range of issues to include a biocide to prevent bacterial and algae growth among other things.

 

In my entire career in Army Aviation, I NEVER once observed or even heard of JP-8 (military spec version similar to Jet A-1) gelling, clouding, or icing up.   

 

IF you DO add any jet fuel, I HIGHLY recommend adding a lubrication additive which you should be using already like the Walmart Supertech 2 stroke lube oil. 

 

Do NOT used these types of fuels full strength as their cetane properties are such that they cause issues with delayed combustion and have SIGNIFICANTLY reduced lubrication properties as compared to diesel fuel.......not to mention that they cost a lot more unless you work some place where you can get CLEAN waste jet fuel. 

[mopartechnician]

I used amalgamated last year and it didnt help me. But I think my biggest issue was my airdog gelling up. My dad has been using it for 5 years and hasnt gelled up. About a dozen people I know bought some with me last time I ordered, and only had a couple gel up. My buddy used it once and he gelled. Ever since then he has used stanadyne and hasnt gelled. So its really hit and miss

Edited November 23, 2014 by mopartechnician

[LiveOak]

I used amalgamated last year and it didnt help me. But I think my biggest issue was my airdog gelling up. My dad has been using it for 5 years and hasnt gelled up. About a dozen people I know bought some with me last time I ordered, and only had a couple gel up. My buddy used it once and he gelled. Ever since then he has used stanadyne and hasnt gelled. So its really hit and miss

 

Can't miss mixing kerosene or Jet A-1.  If Amalgamated gelled up, I would be contacting Randy Walker at Amalgamated and explain what happened.  Not sure if Randy is still working there or not.  Give them the opportunity to make it right. 

Edited November 23, 2014 by LiveOak

[mopartechnician]

Randy is who I ordered it through. I will see how this winter holds up

[rancherman]

All very good dialog here^^^^

 

Like I said,   #1  for  blending is   $4.65,     Bulk Kero  is   close to  7 dollars.      For ME,    heating up the fuel  is  the way to go.

 

I grind a lot of hay  during the winter,    the tractor I use to run the processor   is  about  150 hp,     and it  takes  just about  every  one of them.  (5-6 gallons/hour)      When running   a blend,      I still can get   maximum speed from the  engine,  but  fuel consumption  is  dang near  50%  more..   ~ 8 gph.      The  governor has to be  at the end of it's travel!  

 

Since  most of my  on-farm fuel is delivered  from  a  storage facility  "above ground"   it   can and has been  delivered   almost  pre clouded.     If  it  isn't,  it'll be  soon  afterwards  sitting in my   also above ground tanks.

Believe me,   adding   a   treatment  at this time  is pretty futile.     I've no heated  shop, garage.   Best I can hope for is  a   Nebraska  heat wave...  and     stir the tanks  some.

I currently am running  a  Lucas  product  in my bulk tank,   straight #2  and  this product,  and  so far so good.    I  had it in there  3 weeks ago,  BEFORE  the weather  went  south.  

I  have  about   5-600 gallons left,    and  will be  getting another load of fuel in  within the next  2 weeks. 

This  is  'good'  for me.  My fuel, My equipment, My environment.    (My $$$)  LOL

[TFaoro]

I'm interested to see how the heater works out for you! I have been running the white bottle Power Service and haven't gelled in the last couple weeks. The time I did gel I think it had a little over half of a tank of summer fuel (Since painting took 10 weeks!) I have a feeling my truck will end up parked until summer though....