Advanced timing with Blue Chip Special X VP44

[Mopar1973Man]

What the whole deal is boost pressure is what is creating the heat to make the fuel burn. So bigger injectors typically have larger droplets so require more heat to convert the fuel from a liquid state to vapor to BOOM!. So smaller injectors have smaller droplets so less heat is required to covert the fuel to ignite. So as pour more fuel in you create more drive pressure on the turbine so now you can create more boost pressure. But efficiency or MPG is created more so in low to zero boost pressure. More boost with fuel will not create more power. 
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoignition_temperature

 

The autoignition temperature or kindling point of a substance is the lowest temperature at which it will spontaneously ignite in a normal atmosphere without an external source of ignition, such as a flame or spark. This temperature is required to supply the activation energy needed for combustion. The temperature at which a chemical will ignite decreases as the pressure or oxygen concentration increases. It is usually applied to a combustible fuel mixture.

Autoignition temperatures of liquid chemicals are typically measured using a 500 mL flask placed in a temperature controlled oven in accordance with the procedure described in ASTM E659.[1]

 

So in a nutshell that is what makes a diesel engine go. More boost create more pressure or heat in the cylinder which allows the engine to burn more fuel. Adding to much fuel without enough boost can't consume or convert all the fuel so most of the fuel is wasted. Hence why I suggest fuel management over bigger turbo because even with a bigger turbo its going to lag more so and create more smoke than actually cleaning it up. Look back in history the 1st Gen Cummins had a H1C turbo with a 20cm² exhaust housing and no wastegate. This turbo was so big on the turbine side it had zero restriction and no heat issues for the tiny 160 HP engine that it was. Now today most truck have HX35W with a 12cm² exhaust housing but later automatics have a 9cm² exhaust housing to reduce lag time to keep soot emissions down.

 

Actually if Nick (Me78569) would hurry up with the beta testing of his VGT turbo setup we all might convert to that.

[Greenlee]

      NO, the bigger injectors are harder to atomize especially +100 and up. they get more power cause they flow more fuel cause they open the holes in the oOEM nozzles, this increase's flow but decreases pressure, sure the good companies have been able to increase the pressure bact to or close to spec by shimming and modifying the seats but theres only so much adjustment there.

DDP [Atleast on the 40-50-60hp} keep the same size holes but increase the number of holes help keeping the pressure up with better atomization and they change the spray pattern to there custom design. 

How does the software fit in to help control fueling. On a stock 24 valve is it 100 percent fuel all of the time or does it work from a certain percent to start and then add more depending on throttle position. When using a bigger injector is the timing retarded or advanced for the additional time it takes to reach pop off pressure? I guess the next thing to be concerned about is how much hype you can read into an advertisement. My VP44 was advertised to work good with 75 HP injectors, no smoke but that's not true. What is true is the suggestion to buy a particular brand Fuel Management System in a big blue box, it all goes hand in hand and the victim is the customer trying to figure out how to recuperate the money lost in the deal.  

[Greenlee]

Turbo won't do any good unless you drive with your foot in the carpet. Like my truck cruising at 55 MPH I'm 1-2 PSI of boost may 3-4 PSI boost at 65 MPH. Bigger turbo will just add more lag time and more smoke. What you need is to limit the fuel till the turbo lights up. So technically I'm running 170 HP injector but actually running 120 HP tuner on top of 50hp injectors. But since the tuner gives me fuel vs. boost management I can control smoke levels.

 

 

When injector nozzle are created they can produce the hole all different ways. Some methods leave the holes rather jagged and rough which makes for poor atomization like Edge Jammers are known for being really smoky injectors. Where other injectors cost more because the holes are honed out and smoothed so the spray pattern is better quality. 

 

 

Now if you have a boost gauge I would monitor at the point that boost hits and it clears up. This would give you a clue to what setting you would need to use for a module to clean up the smoke.

 

 

As for internal damage to the pintle would be caused from dirt fuel and/or poor quality filers. If there is no debris in the fuel it should wear out technically unless you using a lot of cetane booster and injector cleaners.

 

Here is a basic view of our injectors... The only thing about that picture is our injectors get fuel from the side of the body not the top. 12V are this way...

This is all fantastic information, I searched the internet trying to find an injector that is used in a 24 valve with no luck. Michael, what scientific research firm did you escape from? People like you with 199 IQ's are working in special labs for the government, or course Michael might not be your real name!!! I know you and your associates on this Forum have tons of experience but how to all the engineering and complete comprehension of Diesels fit into all of this in ONE lifetime? I have always been good at mechanical tasks but you go way past this point, you seem to dissect a part until there is nothing left of it, and then explain it.

 

You are right, if I had a boost gauge it would help out, even if I didn't put 2 + 2 together in reaching that conclusion. This is why this Forum is so good. I have learned a tremendous amount of information about my Cummins and how it all works. Still don't understand it all but I can go back and read this again and again until it all clears up. You should put a list of options together on building horse power and torque for the everyday driver. Step by Step on what to do and still drive daily. I would assume it would be several hundred pages per every additional horse power you want to add.

 

I appreciate all of the explanations contributed by every single member who has added experience and knowledge to this thread. What a great support family to get you out of the ditch we all fall into once and a while.

 

Still using 1oz of 2 cycle oil per gallon or diesel fuel since you first explained this. Makes a big difference, the first time I added the 2 cycle to my tank and cranked the engine up it was smooth and quite compared to the prior use of this fuel additive.

 

I am going to change my fuel filter before I change the injectors. Funny thing is once I put the stock injectors back in my truck it started to run better at idle and did not leak down, It took about a week of driving and then it all changed in my favor.

 

Can I control the fuel with an Edge tuner? Which model would work the best for my circumstances?

Edited June 6, 2015 by SLT5Spd99

[Mopar1973Man]

On a stock 24 valve is it 100 percent fuel all of the time or does it work from a certain percent to start and then add more depending on throttle position.

 

 

 

Not true. ECM is setup for certain amount of defuel till boost pressure rises. The ECM has its own fuel map of how much fuel is allowed at X amount of boost. So this where a module changes things now at least Edge there is 3 defuel modes (sublevels 1-3) and 2 power modes (sublevels 4-5). Being the module is wire tapped you can override the ECM commands. Part of it is done on the CAN Bus connector and the other part is done on the wire tap. From what Ed told me the module rewrites the data in the stream and gives it a high priority which wipes out the previous data.

 

 

When using a bigger injector is the timing retarded or advanced for the additional time it takes to reach pop off pressure?

 

Higher the pop pressure better the atomization but retards timing. Lower the pop pressure more timing advancement but atomization is weaker.

 

What is true is the suggestion to buy a particular brand Fuel Management System in a big blue box

 

I'm assuming your talking about Blue Chip box? Not many people use them. As for adjustments and drivablity I couldn't tell you. I know they cost much more that Edge or common name module. Like Smarty is not a good choice for 24V because there is no boost to fuel control. Quadzilla and Edge are both choices for boost to fuel control.

 

http://www.bluechipdiesel.com/fms_box.html

 

Much nicer product... For less...

https://edgeproducts.com/products/01-02-dodge-5-9l-cummins-juice-w-attitude-cts2-31501/

 

Simpler product.

https://edgeproducts.com/products/2001-2002-dodge-24-v-comp-5-9l--30301/

 

Like Edge EZ isn't a good choice because there again no boost to fuel management.

[Mopar1973Man]

This is all fantastic information, I searched the internet trying to find an injector that is used in a 24 valve with no luck. Michael, what scientific research firm did you escape from? People like you with 199 IQ's are working in special labs for the government, or course Michael might not be your real name!!! I know you and your associates on this Forum have tons of experience but how to all the engineering and complete comprehension of Diesels fit into all of this in ONE lifetime? I have always been good at mechanical tasks but you go way past this point, you seem to dissect a part until there is nothing left of it, and then explain it.

 

You are right, if I had a boost gauge it would help out, even if I didn't put 2 + 2 together in reaching that conclusion. This is why this Forum is so good. I have learned a tremendous amount of information about my Cummins and how it all works. Still don't understand it all but I can go back and read this again and again until it all clears up. You should put a list of options together on building horse power and torque for the everyday driver. Step by Step on what to do and still drive daily. I would assume it would be several hundred pages per every additional horse power you want to add.

 

I appreciate all of the explanations contributed by every single member who has added experience and knowledge to this thread. What a great support family to get you out of the ditch we all fall into once and a while.

 

My legal name is Michael S. Nelson...

 

As for my background I've got a degree is computer and electronic science from ITT Tech, Van Nuys CA.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/mopar1973man

 

As for diesel knowledge I've never been to any school or anything I just learned on my own. I'm NOT ASE certified. Thank Gawd... As for knowledge I keep studying every time I hit the wall with a issue or problem. If there is a unknown I look for answers. Like look back at P7100 pump or VE pumps there is documents every where on how to work on them. But VP44 is a big hidden mystery don't touch it your not allowed. BS! I own this vehicle I want to know more. If you ever show up here I would be able to show you all the electronic books on Bosch stuff and service manuals I got. There is so much data here on one machine about Cummins Diesels.

[Greenlee]

What the whole deal is boost pressure is what is creating the heat to make the fuel burn. So bigger injectors typically have larger droplets so require more heat to convert the fuel from a liquid state to vapor to BOOM!. So smaller injectors have smaller droplets so less heat is required to covert the fuel to ignite. So as pour more fuel in you create more drive pressure on the turbine so now you can create more boost pressure. But efficiency or MPG is created more so in low to zero boost pressure. More boost with fuel will not create more power. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoignition_temperature

 

 

So in a nutshell that is what makes a diesel engine go. More boost create more pressure or heat in the cylinder which allows the engine to burn more fuel. Adding to much fuel without enough boost can't consume or convert all the fuel so most of the fuel is wasted. Hence why I suggest fuel management over bigger turbo because even with a bigger turbo its going to lag more so and create more smoke than actually cleaning it up. Look back in history the 1st Gen Cummins had a H1C turbo with a 20cm² exhaust housing and no wastegate. This turbo was so big on the turbine side it had zero restriction and no heat issues for the tiny 160 HP engine that it was. Now today most truck have HX35W with a 12cm² exhaust housing but later automatics have a 9cm² exhaust housing to reduce lag time to keep soot emissions down.

 

Actually if Nick (Me78569) would hurry up with the beta testing of his VGT turbo setup we all might convert to that.

I just saw this after my last post. I can see what's going on with the way you explained how it works. I don't understand the math, cm^{2  or how you got the text up here????}   might be a trade secret. From what you are saying is this why a twin turbo setup is better for spooling up and produces less lag? How many upgrades can a stock Cummins handle before you have to start changing out the head bolts and such? Do you have any information on the Turbos used by the 12 valve and 24 valve? Something I can understand.

[Greenlee]

My legal name is Michael S. Nelson...

 

As for my background I've got a degree is computer and electronic science from ITT Tech, Van Nuys CA.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/mopar1973man

 

As for diesel knowledge I've never been to any school or anything I just learned on my own. I'm NOT ASE certified. Thank Gawd... As for knowledge I keep studying every time I hit the wall with a issue or problem. If there is a unknown I look for answers. Like look back at P7100 pump or VE pumps there is documents every where on how to work on them. But VP44 is a big hidden mystery don't touch it your not allowed. BS! I own this vehicle I want to know more. If you ever show up here I would be able to show you all the electronic books on Bosch stuff and service manuals I got. There is so much data here on one machine about Cummins Diesels.

You need to lighten up a little Michael, I know you are not CIA or Secret Service. You have explained how you got started to everyone. Sometimes my humor isn't so funny to anyone but me. I am not looking for any trade secrets. I would like to comprehend the diesel world the way you do, it would put the service departments out of business.

[Mopar1973Man]

I just saw this after my last post. I can see what's going on with the way you explained how it works. I don't understand the math, cm^{2  or how you got the text up here????}   might be a trade secret. From what you are saying is this why a twin turbo setup is better for spooling up and produces less lag? How many upgrades can a stock Cummins handle before you have to start changing out the head bolts and such? Do you have any information on the Turbos used by the 12 valve and 24 valve? Something I can understand.

 

Stock engine is good for 35-40 PSI of boost before head work or studs are required. Stock turbo on the other hand are limited to 30-32 PSI for HY35 and 35 PSI for HX35.

 

As for the square cm number that is the square cm of the exhaust opening to the turbine. Slower open means less lag but more back pressure and higher EGT's. Larger opening is has more lag, less EGT's and back pressure. I've seen several documented cases of Cummins ISB engine making at round 100 PSI of boost and holding together. Lots of mods required to get there though... Need really deep pockets.

 

 

You need to lighten up a little Michael, I know you are not CIA or Secret Service. You have explained how you got started to everyone. Sometimes my humor isn't so funny to anyone but me. I am not looking for any trade secrets. I would like to comprehend the diesel world the way you do, it would put the service departments out of business.

 

No problem. Sometimes I don't see the humor in post I take thing to literal. Hard to see human expression in words at times.   

 

As for trade secrets I'm trying to kill the secret part. I hate that...

[Greenlee]

Quadzilla and Edge are both choices for boost to fuel control.

 

I don't know much about the wire tap other than it could screw up your VP44 if not done correctly and/or void warranty. I am really in limbo trying to make a good decision with all the information that has been passed on by means of this thread. I have much to do and I feel I need to not only make a short video from the back of my truck showing enough black smoke to produce a small cloud, why, I want to do all that I can to show anybody considering the $2,150.00 Premium Special X VP44 to think twice about it for all the reasons I wish someone had shared with me. I might not have learned as much as I have in this thread but I would be money ahead in the long run if I had bought a STANDARD VP44 with a new computer. If I had someone living near to me I would swap out VPs to prove my point. But I can do it with the video, gauges, and new injectors. I a few weeks I might buy the Edge to control the fuel since i don't believe anything else is going to get the job done. So this is not over at the moment for me. I will have a lot more questions to help my learning curve and understand my Cummins truck.

 

The last piece of news on my 1999 Dodge SLT Laramie Quad Cab 5 speed is I am selling it...to my younger brother who needs a good reliable truck to drive. In addition it's getting more difficult for me to battle it out with a clutch  everyday. I want this to be right for him because he will have to learn how to do the maintenance just like I did. I will have to settle for an automatic and I have been looking for some time but cannot find one as clean as the one I have now. I am certain i will have to get a built transmission right off the get go so I will start a thread about it when the time is right. If my deal falls through with my brother I will hold on to the 99 and make the best of it.

[Greenlee]

After reading half of the post on Tear Down, it's difficult to get rid of such a good truck. There has to be a way to modify the clutch for easier use. This is the main reason I bought my Cummins. Is it easier to drive a 6 speed NV verses the 5 speed NV?

 

It never dawned on me how many educated members we have that have been to school on diesels or have schooled themselves to gain the knowledge shared. I feel confident that I will get my smoke issues figured out, compared to the posts by other members and the problems encountered this should be a walk in the park once you begin to understand what's going on with the engine. 

 

Back on it tomorrow, who do I send a video to for posting?

[Mopar1973Man]

Personally, 5 speed is easier. Start in 2nd Gear and only shift 4 times.  6 Speed is only adding the gear at 3rd.

 

Final Gears are the same...

NV4500 5th = 0.75

NV6500 6th = 0.73

 

Still the same.

NV4500 4th = 1:1

NV5600 5th = 1:1

 

Next down... Now it changed.

NV4500 3rd = 1.67

NV5600 4th = 1.36

 

3rd gear on my truck is use at 25 MPH.

[Greenlee]

Personally, 5 speed is easier. Start in 2nd Gear and only shift 4 times.  6 Speed is only adding the gear at 3rd.

 

Final Gears are the same...

NV4500 5th = 0.75

NV6500 6th = 0.73

 

Still the same.

NV4500 4th = 1:1

NV5600 5th = 1:1

 

Next down... Now it changed.

NV4500 3rd = 1.67

NV5600 4th = 1.36

 

3rd gear on my truck is use at 25 MPH.

I have been using 1st gear since I bought my truck, Prior I would also start in 2nd gear but the truck manual stated started to always start in 1st so I did thinking if I didn't it might cause some harm to the transmission. Once again like an idiot I fell today, not able to use my left arm much so I had to drive to an appointment. Used 2nd gear like you mentioned above and it was so much easier trying to get around saving an extra shift. I appreciate your input

[k9macho]

I recently came across this post while looking for a solution to the same problem. I have an 02 2500 which I had done some mild upgrades in an effort to improve towing of my 8000k 5th wheel camper. Those upgrades include Edge Juice w/ attitude, 4" turbo back Banks exhaust and intake horn, Filtration Solutions oil by-pass system and cold air intake. I recently galled #5 piston and cylinder and replaced the engine with a use 130k mile motor from a 02 3500; in the process I also installed a new ATS 4000 turbo and pulse flow exhaust manifold and DDP 75 hp injectors. Needless to say is smokes like the Norfolk Southern is coming down the track, even on the lowest setting of the tuner. I can ease the pedal until the turbo spools and minimize the smoke, but that's just not an option when the camper is attached. The VP44 is a reman that came on the used engine and appears to be stock, so I was wondering if Greenlee found a solution and what it was? Any help would be greatly appreciated...

[Me78569]

Get different injectors. DAP is a good choice.

[TFaoro]

Your turbo is also pretty big... something that would spool faster would help!

[Mopar1973Man]

I also vote for stock HX35 turbo put back on the truck. I'm running +50HP and Edge Comp (5x3) and barely even smoke with this setup so if you had a smaller quick spooling turbo you would lose this smoke issue.

[Greenlee]

I recently came across this post while looking for a solution to the same problem. I have an 02 2500 which I had done some mild upgrades in an effort to improve towing of my 8000k 5th wheel camper. Those upgrades include Edge Juice w/ attitude, 4" turbo back Banks exhaust and intake horn, Filtration Solutions oil by-pass system and cold air intake. I recently galled #5 piston and cylinder and replaced the engine with a use 130k mile motor from a 02 3500; in the process I also installed a new ATS 4000 turbo and pulse flow exhaust manifold and DDP 75 hp injectors. Needless to say is smokes like the Norfolk Southern is coming down the track, even on the lowest setting of the tuner. I can ease the pedal until the turbo spools and minimize the smoke, but that's just not an option when the camper is attached. The VP44 is a reman that came on the used engine and appears to be stock, so I was wondering if Greenlee found a solution and what it was? Any help would be greatly appreciated...

 

Good Morning K9macho, sorry to hear about you having similar smoke issues. My brother picked up my truck way before I could try and solve the smoke issue. I put the stock injectors back in so he could drive it to his new job. He is learning the ropes of owning a diesel truck....slowly. After DDP "re-tuned" or modified the 75hp injectors I gave them to him along with the new connector tubes and told him he should put them in one week end and see if their adjustments made a difference, if it slowed the smoke down, great, if not put the stock back in again. I have been trying to get him to do this for a couple of weeks now. I know you need an answer now but unfortunately I can't help right now and I hope you find a solution. Now you might find the stock turbo will work better but it didn't make any difference on my 99 but you should be able to control the fuel with your Edge Juice/Attitude. I went back to see what options you have to control the fuel, I believe this is the a big part of the problem but not the only problem. I don't have or ever used a tuner like the edge and I might be way off base but if you can control the fuel while spooling up I would give it a try. There is plenty of good advice on the Forum, way more experience than me but I hope sincerely you can get the problem solvved. One good benefit of the smoke....no buddy will tailgate behind you!  Please let us all know what you end up doing.

 

One more thing to consider, we both bought 75hp injectors from DDP with advertised little to no smoke. I don't no how long ago you bought your injectors or if DDP would make any adjustments to help you but I'm certain someone on this Forum can direct to a company that deals in injectors and can do a quality job adjusting yours.

 

One more thing again, after I sold my 24v and bought a 98 Dodge 12v automatic to get away from the VP44. It's rough compared to what I had and slow compared to the 24 but it has a extremely reliable injection pump and I have new injectors, DVs, and a AFC Live Stage 2 to install as soon as I get over this last surgery. 

Edited October 6, 2015 by Greenlee

[Greenlee]

Get different injectors. DAP is a good choice.

 

Does DAP buy their injectors or do them in house?

[Greenlee]

I also vote for stock HX35 turbo put back on the truck. I'm running +50HP and Edge Comp (5x3) and barely even smoke with this setup so if you had a smaller quick spooling turbo you would lose this smoke issue.

 

I understand what you are saying but it's a hard pill to swallow after spending a lot of money for a new after market. You are probably right but I hope there is something else that can be done that won't break his pocket book.

[Buzzinhalfdozen]

I agree with the above statements. It sounds like a combination of dirty injectors and a slow spooling turbo. I recently installed 100hp injectors from DAP and with my slightly larger than stock turbo I really have to try to make smoke. Runs surprisingly clean and cool. I would start with injectors since they are cheaper than a turbo.